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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
36
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Posted - 2014.05.03 16:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Thank you for finally speaking up CCP Rouge.
For better or worst I think a lot of the fear, anger and hysteria has snowballed into an out of control avalanche, a rioting mob that keeps chanting a mantra: "DUST has been abandoned, we have been cheated." The real sad part here is that this conclusion has been reached not via any solid facts but through innuendo - an apparent psychic ability of angry players to read "between the lines" of what CCP is actually doing.
One can be rather selective in what you choose to interpret:
Yes they said that most of the new progression ideas are about Legion but also it is emphasised that as much as possible - as much as the PS3 system allows without braking the existing gameplay - will be inserted into DUST.
Additionally, although PC has been announced as the new direction, no one has denied the possibility of PS4 or consoles. Rather PC as a platform is to be seen as a stepping stone. If you read into all this with a detached mind, it is kind of obvious that LEGION is suppose to be seen as the hope for all the unrealised, un-manifested future visions rather then an immediate and definitive replacement of DUST.
Thats what I read between the lines, which is a positive and hopeful approach. But to see it like that one has to have some good will. And in defence of the community reaction I think there is not much of that left. The reasons for that we also know:
CCP as the new kid on the FPS/console block had to contend with a very large amount of scepticism right from the start. And rightly so, they have made serious mistakes, they bit off more then they could chew. They kept inspiring people with their future vision and now that many started believing and hoping... comes this massive change of direction.
The hard fact is this: Despite the shock people must admit that in order to realise this vision such a change is not only necessary but inevitable. Perhaps CCP should not have revealed LEGION in such an early stage at all. Perhaps they are naive in believing that people will see the good instead of the bad. It is counter intuitive but most players always look for surety and guarantees in what is essentially a very fluid and uncertain process. Nothing is written in stone, especially in such a innovative process. If one looks at it more like a river flow, constantly changing and evolving it would be easier to see that the glass is half full and not half empty. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2014.05.03 20:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
DJINN Sun Tzu wrote:
In many ways, Dust for the ps3 was probably a mistake, although I'm glad they did it or I wouldn't be in EVE lol but still. I can totally understand your rage, although a refund isn't entirely necessary. I payed real money, and I got my money's worth out of the game. I'm annoyed at SONY for some things about my money as well. Although if you guys can get a refund, you probably should.
Good point. I am also not convicted by the refund argument. I have also spent a tone of real cash at the start. However because I understood the vision for this project I quickly saw that DUST 514 on PS3 is a failure, so I stopped grinding, and buying AUR. I guess I made a smarter financial decision then most of the people who continued buying AUR. But does that give me the right to judge other players who spent real money on an F2P game of a very uncertain future? No.
And thats the real point hear: the refund argument is very subjective and individual, and there is many ways of looking at it:
1. Since the beginning DUST gaming experience is much improved. Isn't that worth some of your money, after all it is still a F2P? You took a risk of sorts, invested time and money and now you feel you have lost. CCP did as well. We cannot deny that in the overall strategy and financially the PS3 DUST project is a failure for both sides. It never reached the critical mass of players and it was to slow and unstable on delivering "the grand vision."
2. Can you honestly claim you have not benefited from AUR while playing until now, and it wasn't fun? And that all the grinding you did and the real money you have spent was only for the hypothetical joy you will receive in the future? I mean how many games have you bought that you do not play anymore?
3. Last but not least, DUST on PS3 may be around for as long as two more years. The player experience will be continually improved, didn't you just get 1.8? And if you stick around you have every possibility to migrate into the new version and get your money's worth after all. If someone cannot accept more waiting then get your refund and stop spewing toxic waste just to prove you can.
After watching the last CCP keynote today it is clear that they drew some hard lessons their experience with other platforms. Their new approach is to first make all this work on a PC: Valkyrie, Dust, EVE. In fact they plan to merge all the characters into one account. Once that is done successfully they will start expanding on other platforms, consoles, tablets etc. If they are ever to succeed in creating their dream scfi universe, starting where they are strongest: a PC; Is the only sane way to do it. Does this spell doom for Dust on PS4, not at all because once they have the new engine porting it on PS4 is but a formality. After all Valkyrie is already promised for PS4. |It may be hard to swallow, but this is how CCP has done it always two steps forward one step back. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.05.03 20:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote: Have you been looking at some other information the rest of us don't have which confirms continued development? And does that information also confirm that they're going to be at all prompt about even the basic long-overdue improvements to PC and other potentially game-breaking flaws?
How do I know if they will continue to tweak their PS3 project? To be honest I am just guessing based on my experience with CCP over the last 8 years. On DUST I was here from beta and have seen scores of unresolved issues. CCP could spend thousands in optimizing on this platform but the signs of difficulties of making it work on the PS3 have been here for a while. Remember Uprising 1.0? I guess what I am saying is that in terms of development it will not get much worst then it was until now. Perhaps even better since there will not be any major releases but rather smaller patches dedicated to a smother game play. I mean why not? Keeping the console community around until this new concept is ready is in their best interest because no matter what people say I think PS4 is inevitable at some point. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2014.05.03 21:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
Unless, of course, the whole Legion thing gets either scrapped or reworked into what it SHOULD have been all along - a reboot/re-release of DUST with the core content we were promised all along ALREADY IN PLACE BEFORE RELEASE THIS TIME. And yes, the PS3 should be able to handle what they want to do, and they SHOULD be making a PS3 version of the initial Legion client, as well as PS4 and maybe (ONLY MAYBE, NOT DEFINITELY) a PC release alongside them.
I really do think that PS4 is a very real possibility now, i.e. a reboot. What people must realise and what is hard to accept for the understandably disappointed console players is that by succeeding with Legion on their own platform, a PC, CCP is more likely to successfully expand to other platforms.
As far as DUST 514 being handled well by the PS3 and its network I simply do not agree, and have a completely different experience. I actually stopped playing because my PS3 got overheated and crushed too many times. Plus the network froze daily. I guess if it was another MAG or COD type game it could definitely be handled by PS3 but a game that is suppose to work in conjunction with the EVE cluster, no way... They would have to scrap all their plans for a meaningful interaction between the two games. FW and PC is all that they where able to combine and in a very limited way at that. If they tried to merged the markets plus add PVE , LOL the whole system would just melt. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
41
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Posted - 2014.05.03 22:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
The problems with DUST aren't inherently because the PS3 can't handle what CCP wanted to make. The problem is that CCP's programmers haven't been able to do what other developers can with the same system.
I heard differently from some of my buddies who have talked to CCP from the start, and while I have seen plenty of mistakes from them I trust their effort is an honest one, they are not the types who give up easily. They like a challenge and are rather passionate about their vision. To me thats a hallmarks of DEV's who do not just give up a project because they lack skill...
But well, you sound like an experienced programmer who knows his stuff and there is not much I can say to that. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2014.05.03 22:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
tastzlike chicken wrote:
This is a fairly toxic but close community that have followed and supported your vision and also arranged DUST related charity events and have stepped up to get each others backs during real-life crisis.
For the most part, I like you post, its constructive. But have you though about the fact that hindsight is always 20/20? I mean once CCP decided to change direction I don't think there was ever any possibility of doing it without a considerable uproar no matter what they did, precisely because this community is so toxic. Don't get me wrong, the toxic atmosphere its not only player's fault. I mean that up to this point both sides had a difficult road full of disappointments, but especially the players seem too burned out to try for a more civil tone.
And the idea of reimbursing for the fanfest trip? I mean if you are going to travel all the way to Iceland you better have more then a keynote or two as your main attraction.  One usually goes for such gatherings for social interaction and preferably with a bunch of good friends. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2014.05.04 08:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
@ Garret
We can argue about whether they could do it on PS3 till the cows come home it seems, I have my expert friend programmers, ( have actually worked on a small dev project myself) you have yours...
I guess my point is the one you made yourself:
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
There is a certain measure of what DUST wanted to be which simply can't happen on the PS3
Did CCP screw up? Of course. By doing so did they let down a lot of expectations of the console players. Sure. Should they bow down to the pressure and humbly continue developing PS3 because experts like you think they should. No. Should they listen to good advice, ( like the fact that CPM has warned them how this will go down with the community) No doubt. Should they continue to focus on their innovative vision without compromise even if it means that the road ahead requires some very unpopular decisions. Hell yeah!
Thats how its always done if you want to succeed where no one else did. When George Lucas was making his first Star Wars films he alienated a lot of people, his studio - Fox was furious by the end, actors thought he didn't know what he was doing and it was all too weird. Right to the very end the project seemed doomed and yet, I can say today: May the 4th be with you :-)
I don't claim to be an expert or presume to advise them how to deal with a difficult situations. What I understand is innovation and the predicament CCP is in while trying to reach their goals. I think that their chances are slim at best but in order succeeding they have to balance between alienating too many people and braking or bending some established patterns of behaviour. The simple fact is that their main customer base is PC players some of you lovingly refer to as EVE tards. DUST was built because EVE made CCP successful enough to consider such a project. But lets say that the worst case scenario occurs and the console development idea for DUST is totally dropped the PC players are their core customers and are the logical priority here.
So yes, CCP is making a strategic retreat for the sake of their future plans. Retreats, even orderly once, have inevitable casualties. The best we can hope for is that the console marked is not totally abandoned and those of us who care about that should stick around to make sure it happens. Any other approach to this fiasco, justifiably or not, righteous or not is just entitlement. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2014.05.04 11:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
tastzlike chicken wrote:
It's not about the reaction. It's about how CCP treats their supporters. Your post suggests that they (possibly?) couldn't forsee the outrage at how this all came to light. I suggest to you that as a corporation it's their responsibility to forsee it, and they did, and apparently they didn't care. Frankly, this one was a no-brainer -the CPM warned them. This didn't require any hindsight at all IMO. It's that much of a no-brainer.
I tend to agree with you here, and from a PR point of view its a disaster. However personally, when my gaming expectations are let down I tend to react with less entitlement, and I bought a PS3 just to play this game. But when I see comments like: CCP just don't care, they did it by purpose, they have an ex-EA employee so now they will act like EA, they are liars and thieves, etc. I just can't help hearing the tantrums of my teenage son. I suppose that we all act like children when our expectations are let down, its only human.
What I am suggesting is this: Even if they did anticipated the community reaction with some clever PR tactic aimed at softening the unpleasant truth it wouldn't prevent the backlash of the obviously disappointed console community. No matter what CCP did to communicate this change of direction, the burned out ( toxic) community would accuse them of all kinds of atrocities and could say: you should have done it better. Because, that is the truth, they should have done better from the start - still it is only hindsight at this point.
In my business experience ( Pharmaceuticals vs Botanicals ), professional PR is more often then not designed to obscure the truth rather then serve it straight. PR is about the appearance of truth.
So how many of you have met a CCP DEV? As DEVs go most of them are very genuine and ernest, sometimes almost to the point of naivet+¬ or idealism. They have a healthy dose of self-reflection and self-criticism. So yes, I would rather have a company that fumbles with their PR while being genuinely passionate about their product then some sort of professional corporation where form has overtaken substance. In fact the the decease of the modern gaming world, is all about form and delivery dates. Players have become incredibly spoiled and entitled while they consume content like greedy locust.
Remaining loyal to CCP is hard work no doubts there. It requires a more mature approach to what represents true value in the long run. Its a bumpy road but ultimately more rewarding because with time it fosters true partnership instead of entitled dependency. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 15:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
@ Garrett. All valid points. And I agree especially with this:
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
2. Most of the development team have been moved AWAY from developing DUST on PS3, and are creating Legion instead. We're basically on a skeleton crew while the new toy gets all the attention. DUST was meant to be a persistent, constantly-evolving world. It was MEANT to evolve with the technology we play it on. It WASN'T meant to be locked into a holding pattern while a sequel is built to take the reins. They should have kept a SIGNIFICANT part of the team working on DUST and developing new content, while the new team works on SLOWLY building the new game for the new platform. If possible, they should make a gradual transition plan to ease players from the PS3 version of DUST into the PC version. Having "Legion" as the new, updated build for DUST, but including some features the PS3 is simply not capable of (regardless of whether it's actually the limitations of the system itself or just CCP's dev team not being able to make it work), and saying "when you upgrade to the PC version, you'll have access to X, Y and Z as well!" would have been good.
That is why I am trying to present an approach based on acceptance rather then hostility, aimed at moving forward. CCP needs to hear our constructive input so they don't blow it this time... The very last keynote, CCP presents, was very indicative of their new direction and what they meant by staying focused but I think there is definitely some space for a compromise that includes the existing console community. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
49
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 10:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
tastzlike chicken wrote:
"Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to se tt in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change.
We went out with a decisive strategy on pricing and we will stay the course and not flip flop around or knee jerk react to the predictable."
A solid argument, but in my case its kind like barking up the wrong tree - because I totally agreed with Hilmar's point of view then. All this rioting LOL. It was just that. A rioting mob with , entitlement issues freaking out about perceived danger of pay to win etc. In the end they got what they wanted and CCP had to submit. Do I think that was a great success for the community. Absolutely not. Its never good to give into tantrums because it spoils. Plus the most unfortunate result of those riots was innovation being shelved for a good while. Was it good for CCP as a company? Yes. Because under all that pressure they adapted their development strategy and what emerged was a more clear set of goals for the future.
I realize that my point of view is rather rare, I know very few players, friends, who agree with me on this. But those who do, how did you put it... "I guess, they have the stuff you were supposed to learn as a child." Do I have contempt for people who do not agree with me? Absolutely not. I think entitlement is a natural part of live especially in a world of gaming which essentially takes a form of addiction. Also, there is nothing wrong with some addiction in live, but I am simply aware that it is an unhealthy state that leads to paranoia, suspicion, anger, well, the dark side.
So why is that the only thing on offer? Because thats what CCP is as a company, as people. And if they try to change into something they are not relations with them will only deteriorate. I think that what they are isn't bad at all, because they truly seek a partnership with us instead of co-dependency. This is very rare phenomena in the gaming industry and by this merit alone the struggles and pains we endure are well worth the effort. However, in order to see this fact one has to turn off the toxic red haze of addiction and look past the entitlement, suspicion, anger. Like it or not we have a symbiotic relationship with them and too much pressure from either side will simply derail the innovation process... again.
The road to innovation is not a straight forward one. You cannot create brilliant fresh ideas in a focus group, and if you listen to the majority you will simply never get there. Innovation is trial and error and so, inevitably, there are casualties. Fortunately in this case its only bruised and disappointed egos of players who either do not derive any pleasure from an innovative process or they don't understand what it takes to get there. Oh sure it would be great if CCP had better "table-side manners" but it isn't a prerequisite to innovation. Steve Jobs was know to be a rather unpleasant fellow, terrible to work with and Apple till this day is a kind of arrogant company. So what. Steve definitely did not listen to what the masses wanted, instead he gave them what they didn't know they needed. That is innovation in a nutshell.
Clarification: My texts, especially on this subject, tend to get a bit long and preachy and I am sorry for that. But before you get any ideas like: this guy is a CCP apologist, think again. With them, I very much speak using my wallet. Last year I was so disappointed with the state of DUST as oppose to what was promised I stopped playing both games ( 3 accounts in EVE) and haven't started since. All I have left now is forum PVP and when it comes to innovation I become a crusader. And it is from that point of view
I will never stop being impressed and respecting what CCP is trying to achieve. |
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Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
51
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Posted - 2014.05.06 08:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
sammus420 wrote:And how about the 5 year future that CCP was 'confident' about for dust, and all the stuff they talked about in this article?
Oh dear not this again. What, have you never seen how it works when projects/businesses fail to reach their projected goal?
The confidence, whether only projected or real, is usually there right up to the very last moment when mounting problems overwhelm and you decide to cut losses and change your strategy. If they kept telling us instead: we are heaving so much problems with this game, we are not sure if we will make it, we bit off more then we can chew, would that be professional? Besides, what team of programmers would work in a negative atmosphere, with no confidence in their own vision?
They failed our high expectations which they initially build up. Sure, but that is what usually happens when a project fails and if you have been around DUST from the start, this outcome shouldn't be such a big surprise. But constantly implying dishonesty, manipulation and expecting them to respond to that - its a bunch of baloney.
As I see it we will have two games, at least initially. We have DUST on PS3 which is a mediocre game but it is already connected to the EVE universe via PC and FW. (Which developer has managed that much?) Hopefully not too long from now we will have Legion, also connected to EVE but via a different type of gameplay - PVE. Despite serious flaws and problems DUST remains playable, I doubt that all those people playing up till this moment have had no fun at all and its all just about waiting for the promised future. I have no doubts whatsoever that if Legion's launch is a success it will port to PS4 at which point both games can combine into one. It is obvious they cannot promise too much at this point, they already let down a lot of expectations, why start by making new vague promises?
CCP talked about 10 year development plan, did you expect that there will be no set backs? Well this most certainly is a set back, but if you were truly in it for the promise of tomorrow - realise that this is far from over and buckle up because it will be a very bumpy ride.
I quit playing 10 months ago because I saw CCP's confidence for what it was: that's what companies do, they project optimism in the face of adversity. I saw all the flaws and faults and decided to play it safe. But if you cannot get over the fact how you cheated your own damn self by investing too much hope, time, money into what was clearly a very mediocre game to start with then just leave. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 14:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Rouge wrote:
Hi everyone. Me again.
Good post, thank you. Finally something that has a ring of honest heart vs unpleasant truth in it... I was starting to feel unjustified in my efforts to defend your "bad" choices |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 15:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:
Commit. Communicate. Be completely transparent.
I second this attitude. I have no doubts about your overall commitment to innovation. However communication and transparency are key to building a true partnership with your customers - forged to outlast the inevitable setbacks in such an ambitious project. That's what CPM is for and they did warn you against the naivet+¬ of unavailing your shiny new plan without prior ground work.
After all, if we are in it for the long run what is the rush? Correct me if I am wrong but this is the journey so far:
Despite all your efforts DUST has been a disappointment, ( for DEVs and players alike), the scepticism and pressure of the community was there from the start and it has been chipping away on your fortitude, and most certainly finances so in the excitement and scramble to salvage the situation, when the new hope in the form was Legion was born you took a shortcut. - Instead of a carful operation with a scalpel you came to the party (literally - fanfest ) with a chainsaw. |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 20:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:
think about that and tell me console players don't have the right to be angry. You PC Elitests are part of the reason many console players hate pc gamers.
Yeah, lash out at PC players while you are at it... Its definitely their fault. Sure we have a bunch of arrogant eve-tards on this forum we also have plenty of sanctimoniously rude console players who somehow think that their feeling of betrayal gives them the right to embody the very behavioural attributes they so loudly denounce. It doesn't make any rational sense and yet as you pointed out: everyone has the right to their feelings. Perhaps, its how we deal with those difficult feelings that really matters here?
I bought a goddamn PS3 just to play this game and purchased AUR regularly. The difference is I have been playing EVE for a while and know how CCP works. Plus I saw the poor numbers and performance added it all up and quit 10 months ago. I feel sorry for those who either didn't have the foresight or came too late to realise that this boat was ready to sink...
Sure it would be great if LEGION succeeded but I have big doubts because this debacle may very well kill the project at conception. CCP has brought it on themselves but the bitter irony is that a lot is still up to us. How we react, how we speak, how we deal with the sense of betrayal as individuals is our choice too. Or are we claiming that CCP has taken that choice away from us? Your dignity and integrity stolen together with your AUR? It can be argued that the sense of betrayal is so great that CCP does not deserve your decency. Well I got news for you. Decency is a value in itself and it needs no provisos.
We all suspect by now that if there is truly no credibility or enthusiasm left among a sufficient number players CCP may have no reason to go on with this. So while we are at it, lets face another unpopular hypothesis: The community may have been loyal and stuck by them up to this point but we are not a very large community as games go. And if you add this fact to the ambitious nature of the undertaking there is no way that DUST was financially feasible.
When I consider that point and put my disappointment aside I have to admit that when companies or investments fail, ( Something that happened to me personally and thus I reserve my final judgment ), it often happens abruptly or even without warning. Oh, don't get me wrong the signs are usually there early enough, its just human nature to look the other way and blindly persevere. Sometimes this attitude pays off though, and I really wonder if this is one of those times... |
Kev Crow
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 13:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
I think you should take a closer look at how he said the "PC Elitists" (specific term) are part of the reason many console players hate "PC Gamers" (general term).
he's not saying all PC gamers are like the vocal and aggressive "PC Master race" idiots out there. Just like you're not lumping all console gamers into the "ADD CoD kiddie" stereotype that console gamers sometimes get saddled with. There are a few bad eggs on both sides of the fence, and no matter how much people on both sides try to use those idiots as justification for damning the entire opposite group, it doesn't negate the fact that WE ARE ALL GAMERS, or the fact that there are bad people in almost every community out there.
Totally agree with you.
Wasn't anything personal though, and I hope he doesn't feel I attacked his view in that way.
You should know me by now Garrett. I use every opportunity to practice my own personal brand of depravities: "Trolling" people into a more introspective thinking. "Preaching" about the sacrifices we must offer to the Gods of innovation. Basically being an insufferable wiseass.  |
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