DUST Search - CCP, the silence is doing harm.

Harold Junk wrote:

And I'm sorry if you consider this an "attack", but you keep saying things like "i am the voice of reason!", and I'm sorry, but that is also wrong, you have a viewpoint, and you are expressing it to others, and marveling at how anybody could possibly not agree with you 100%. That is exactly what everybody is doing, except some people enjoy adding some strong language, and that is fine by me. Please accept your own bias and join the rest of us in the discussion.

Kev Crow: "Despite what people claim, companies that face such odds rarely concern themselves with unwritten rules and properer etiquette."

I don't care what "odds" they face, every company has to treat their customers with respect or suffer the consequences, do a google search for "business/corporation apologizes". MSNBC had to apologize because one of their correspondents was wearing a sombrero and shaking maracas on his segement, and some people were offended. Go figure.

You say that you want CCP to be more honest with us, but if they can lie to us without consequence, why should they?

tldr; It's okay to have a bias, but pretending you aren't biased only weakens your arguments... in my opinion. SMILEY FACE.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 19 post(s)
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 57	Posted - 2014.05.06 16:50:00 - [1] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: First off: How did the plan to ramp up AUR sales while NOT telling the playerbase about this get by without SOMEONE breaking the news to us? People are still pulling up the post where CCP Saberwing quoted this question that I asked. I'd just like to point out that the question itself was never actually answered. Changing that fact would be nice. Thanks. Wow Garett, the force of entitlement to this question is strong with you But I mean, come on how can they reply to your satisfaction? Firstly, no company will disclose their financial strategy. Secondly, however politely, you are hinting at dishonesty or worst so any reply is damming by implication. Thirdly, as I myself tried to explain in several places already: the potential benefits and reasons of using real money in an F2P game are your own personal choice and cannot be all placed at the marketing altar of " future vision". I think this guy put it very well: Serk Gallis wrote: In terms of money spent, I don't know what would be the best solution to those that feel cheated about it. Some of us are perfectly fine and understood the risk of investing in this game, treating our expenses into it as sunk costs. I'm not trying to belittle those that feel differently, only trying to say that not all of us are as emotionally distraught by the decisions made so far. CCP should obviously be a bit more tactful in their way of informing their client base. They also need to address a lot of the very valid concerns people are raising. But if you thought that DUST would be on PS3 forever, you seriously need to get your head out of the sand. So however harsh it sounds, if you have been buying a lot of AUR while DUST is essentially in a constant "state of beta" then you have been keeping your head in the sand. ( Which BTW I don't think you personally were )
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 57	Posted - 2014.05.06 19:03:00 - [2] - Quote Ayrie Coronach wrote: For MMOs, people weigh the experience as it is PLUS DEVELOPER STATEMENTS ABOUT THE FUTURE DIRECTION AND FEATURE EXPANSION OF THE MMO into their spending calculus to determine whether an investment of money in the product is worth it. I understand that logic, and I sympathise with a feeling of betrayal. But I, and many others as it seems, make our gaming purchases using a different set of guidelines I suppose. DUST struggled from the start, more so then any MMO I have tried. We tolerated it knowing that unlike other MMOs, DUST was a long term project - a risky innovation at its core. I mean how many MMOs, that you used as your "ideal template" tried combining, two different platforms, two communities and vastly different gameplays in a single persistent universe? From that perspective CCP's promises and cavalier attitude about DUST right to the very last moment, which so many claim was so grossly misleading, I see as nothing more then a very much needed optimism in the face of adversity. Considering the risky endeavour that CCP has embarked on, transplanting templates from other MMOs is a bit naive and short sighted. Again, I am not disregarding the pain that a lot people are feeling. I am only suggesting that a more appropriate barometer of your investment should have been the actual state of the game plus the fact that PS3 isn't exactly the future of gaming... Our perceptions is what ultimately determines the subjectivity of our experiences. I do not see this project as halted, merely delayed. In a way I like CCP precicsy because a relationship with them forces me to think more responsibly and less addictivly. As a customer of CCP I have to understand their process and take some of the responsibility on my own shoulders. As oppose to most of the gaming industry, which in my solitary opinion, is spoiling their customers. By pampering them constantly and feeding their insatiable gluttony for perfection the spirit of new discovery through risk and innovation is gradually disappearing. Have you looked around on the MMO market of late? Its all clones... Developers simply don't dare to upset their precious addicts. Its bad for business... Much better to follow a safe and predictable template right?
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 57	Posted - 2014.05.06 19:25:00 - [3] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: How am I "hinting" at anything? No you are not, I was just being polite. And you are right they could at least try to say something about it. They have commented on almost every other concern... The thing is I have been in some very though spots myself, with big projects and huge disappointments all-around and its always simpler to judge looking from the outside inn... So the diplomat at heart that I am, I doing my best to help them along, defuse some tension, play devil's advocate. Plus, I admit a bit selfishly, "preach" about the distinctive psychology required for innovation in gaming.
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 61	Posted - 2014.05.06 23:21:00 - [4] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: I've said multiple times that I support some of the ideas behind Legion. I believe you Garrett. I really do. I am simply pointing out that the disagreement is no longer about the merits of the transition but rather about the less tangible aspects of this upheaval: subjective and very individual emotions. Even in the ideal scenario you have described above I guarantee that the feeling of betrayal would have been equally present - Because the undeniable truth is that trying to develop such an ambitious project on a PS3 was their first and most important mistake. Granted, as I pointed out in another place, if they proposed the new changes "with a scalpel instead of the chainsaw" it would have been a less bloody affair. But amputation is still an amputation, and the patient lives. In other words, if you take the bare facts as presented by CCP so far they differ from your much more pleasant scenario only in terms of external packaging. Of course packaging is still important because if you do not handle with care people get upset and leave. The problem is that gamer communities are subject to a lot of the same behavioural patterns like an out of control mob, where riots are inevitable, sparked always before all the facts are in, and driven by a misguided or misplaced sense of fair-play. This is my scenario: John Demonsbane wrote: From this thread. Maybe you guys really are competent programmers and the PS3 really was the only issue. I doubt it, but letGÇÖs say thatGÇÖs true. That is completely unrelated and does not excuse how you treated a very loyal group of players. I see a lot of loyalty pledges flying around left and right, how as good and loyal customers we kept supporting this game despite its flaws. - It would be great if things were so black and white. But in real life they rarely are. If you knew that the game had flaws then your loyalty was given with the full awareness of the risk - No? For some it seems this loyalty was very conditional and hinging on a monetary value: I give you my money and you are required to save-guard my investment like a bank; e.i. promptly inform me when the gamble doesn't pay off. A bit naive approach, but misplaced loyalty is often based good faith I suppose. Others like me offered their loyalty with a less expectant attitude and with a better understanding of risk, some of which they gladly took on their own shoulders. After all, if we turn this around and and assume that CCP did its darndest to create this game, aren't they entailed to some reward as well, and just for their efforts? Do you think they didn't loose money on this? Doesn't loyalty and partnership imply a responsible sharing of risk? Or are we just talking about the kind of loyalty that is for sale? I mean the kind off predictable mock loyalty that most gaming industry practices... So for me the bottom line is this: If you want to stick with CCP which is indeed a very unusual bunch of DEVs you have to deal with the fact that the PR packaging will not always be to your liking. Try to look past it and see that the facts are still the same: They reached their limits with PS3, transit to a new platform is unavoidable, casualties (players who's loyalty has been spent) are regretful but part of the process. There is a good reason why most older EVE players call themselves Bitter-Vets - Those are the guys who survived that process
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 62	Posted - 2014.05.07 08:43:00 - [5] - Quote Harold Junk wrote: As far as you are concerned we are all trolls and crybabies so it's ok for a company like CCP to treat us as such? No. They will treat us like the paying customers we are or they will lose reputation with every person they expect to sell this game to. Why don't you read some more of my post, and the discussion I had with Garrett, most of it is rather balanced and far from condescending or offensive. In a way you made my point for me. You attack me without even bothering to understand - just assuming and blindly expressing your feeling of dissatisfaction. I never said that feelings are wrong, all I am saying is that feelings are subjective and individual and therefore not the ultimate truth. Not everyone feels the same about this... And before you continue judging - I have informed CCP about my dissatisfaction with DUST 10 months ago: I stopped playing both games ( In EVE I had 3 paying accounts)
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 63	Posted - 2014.05.07 11:53:00 - [6] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: So is that what you're telling a person who signed up for the game 2 weeks ago, encouraged by the still-fresh "laser focused on PS3" announcement, and E3's promises of DUST on PS4? Was their decision to help fund the game made with "full awareness of the risk? What about the guy who knew CCP had directly stated that development is continuing on DUST mere WEEKS ago? Was he "fully aware of the risk" when he decided to buy more Aurum right before Fanfest? NO. NO WE WERE NOT "FULLY AWARE OF THE RISK" AT THAT STAGE. And there we agree again. That is why I mention the inevitable casualties. No matter how you slice it CCP is throwing some people under the buss with no apologies. However, it is obvious that they are cutting corners and trying to desperately recover lost time and money, the fact that they are still using Unreal 3 for Legion is a clear proof of that. No money to start a completely new development process hens porting to PS4 is not an option - PC being their only cheapest alternative, and last chance. The fact that the project is not even green-lit is another proof of losses and uncertainty within the company. Why are they not telling us all this? Why put up a brave face? Again, and I said it over and over: It is optimism in the face of adversity, NOT dishonesty. Without that optimism they might as well just give up now. In my opinion people must realise what CCP is facing, after all they hinted at the possibility of Legion not being realised at all. There is a very real possibility that the entire vision will have to be scraped. In which case we all go under the buss and everyone lost. Despite what people claim, companies that face such odds rarely concern themselves with unwritten rules and properer etiquette. Its about the gamble for survival and like it or not nothing else matters at this point. Either they succeed on the PC in which case we will get our console game eventually and the casualties would have not been in vain. Or they will fail, end of story. I always though that their chances were slim, but I continue to hope because it usually gets darkest before the dawn. In any case I hope they are reading all this. Our little debate, Garrett, should at least show them the depth of passion and understanding that many players have. I hope it heartens them, I hope it gives them the strength to face us in an honest way with the truth. Because at this point only the truth can help, like a bitter medicine pill that one has to swallow in order burn away the raging fever.
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2014.05.08 13:03:00 - [7] - Quote Harold Junk wrote: And I'm sorry if you consider this an "attack", but you keep saying things like "i am the voice of reason!", and I'm sorry, but that is also wrong, you have a viewpoint, and you are expressing it to others, and marveling at how anybody could possibly not agree with you 100%. That is exactly what everybody is doing, except some people enjoy adding some strong language, and that is fine by me. Please accept your own bias and join the rest of us in the discussion. Kev Crow: "Despite what people claim, companies that face such odds rarely concern themselves with unwritten rules and properer etiquette." I don't care what "odds" they face, every company has to treat their customers with respect or suffer the consequences, do a google search for "business/corporation apologizes". MSNBC had to apologize because one of their correspondents was wearing a sombrero and shaking maracas on his segement, and some people were offended. Go figure. You say that you want CCP to be more honest with us, but if they can lie to us without consequence, why should they? tldr; It's okay to have a bias, but pretending you aren't biased only weakens your arguments... in my opinion. SMILEY FACE. I used the word attack not to show something that I felt personally. I tried to illustrate how easily one can dismiss, indeed dissect, arguments with merits when ones own view is clouded but strong negative emotions and a refusal to see both sides of the coin. And so I have no need to pretend anything. I truly seek the Aristotelian 'golden mean truth' here, and that is nearly impossible when one is biased. Because in most conflicts and disagreements the truth usually lies in the middle. I have no doubt that CCP has failed their DUST community plus committed serious PR and marketing faux pas. But I think that accusing them of lying with premeditation or callously stealing does not help to uncover the unbiased truth regardless of the language one uses. I am defiantly not marvelling how people could possible not agree with me a 100%. After all, without a good disagreement my own egoistic entitlement aimed towards compromises and diplomacy would feel impotent . Besides, I have already apologised elsewhere, for the preachy nature of my texts. At this point, I want the same thing from CCP like most people here: An honest attempt at reconciliation, I am just going about it in a different way. I do feel compelled to emphasise though: reconciliation does not have anything to do with retribution. And an apology only goes so far. To restore credibility I want a full and honest explanation and I will judge for myself how much of it rings true.