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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
43
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Posted - 2014.05.01 23:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
Primary
a. New players will have a better chance when going up against vets, but there will be enough of a difference to encourage progression.
b. A new player can spend their relatively low number of SP across a wider array of suits if only staying at lvl1. Currently a new player would have to grind for several weeks just to get one protosuit. This will allow the new player to try different roles, and be more flexible in battle.
Secondary
a. prices for suits can be drastically lowered, reducing the need for PC isk farms. ISK could then be completely removed form PC in favor of materials.
b. much easier for CCP to balance and introduce new roles in each suit catagory.
c. not risk destroying matchmaking by spreading the playerbase thin with a SP/WP based matchmaking system.
Here's a quick response:
Primary:
A. Newbies should not be in the same match as a vet, anyone saying that a noob and get should be matched up against each other doesn't understand the problem tier-cide is trying to address, competitive balanced fair matches. This is the 100% reversal of encouraging progression! you are just placing the vets in a system similar to what we have now, but now you've made it easier because vets can easily find noobs to match up against. You cant argue for a system then suggest noobs can take on vets easier, they shouldn't be together.
B. Spending SP across a wide range of items... Seems to counter everything CCP Devs's have said about wanting linear skill trees, the more you specialize the more successful you are at that role. Spreading SP and creating a tree with many weak branches is about as useful as comment A. Better to be master if a trade than mediocre at everything, so that point is mute too.
Secondary:
A 2. Prices for suits are fine, no one is having ISK problems and if they are they need to run cheaper suits to counter loses. I run 3 fits: 6k militia Forge gunner, adv scout with DL or RE + std cloak, advanced weapon, pro extenders, and mix of std and adv lows (armor, kin cat, Dampener) both fits are 30-38k. That means in a standard game, where ISK payouts are 250-300k, I can die 5-8 times and run a profit. If ISK becomes a problem, run a cheaper fit in some cases to allow for you to be able to run what you want later. This is the economy, this is what is suppose to occur risk vs reward.
Yes, PC is broken, abused, and needs to be 100% remodelled and fixed.
B 2. It's not much easier, what you're asking for is a complete overhaul. How do you get off on making ridiculous statements and playing all these things as facts? The suits tiers aren't great there are so many issues more pressing to be addressed.
C 2. Matchmaking should 100% be made based on a SP + skill level factor (yes, WP should be a strong factor is such a skill score). This keeps vets away from noobs, the players we should be trying to protect and ease into the game. You can't throw them into the fire based on a tier-cide system, protect them hope they stick around and then bring them into the fold.
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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
44
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 00:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
I answered your two questions in two separate threads.
The bonuses to suits, mods, racial bonus, passive cores, and in particular weapon proficiency will always mean the vet is going to win a gun battle. Even if we assume the noob is a better shot and can land 5-10% more on his target (given both have to be std weapons) he is unable to make up the disadvantage. The disadvantage is cemented when you spawn and the noob isn't going to overcome the disparity afforded by SP.
The new player, no matter which suit he runs (he is only going to run assault, ill show you later), will always be visible to the experience player. The new player weapon will always be more erratic and do less damage. He will face CPU/PG issues, issues his counterpart will not face, his suit will also have less Armor and shields no matter what. There are very few situations where the new player is going to overcome the obstacles and enjoy his stomp.
I compared a few things, a std Amarr heavy + std HMG is unrealistic and not a viable option for low SP players because of the high SP required to get into lv4-5 tiers even of a x2-3 multiplier. I showed how an experience player using and HMG would have 1114 eHP +15%/+10% resilience bonuses. A std noob assault medium frame (example even M-1) can use 3 extenders and 1 armor and get 435 eHP. Not a fair battle, and the problem is this discrepancy is cemented into a tier system.
We can also check out a basic scout frame, unable to equip a cloak as a quick limitation and obvious situation where lack of disparity occurs. Now this scout even if he didn't use a cloak still would be 100% visible, unable to get std Kin Cats (they would take 1/3 of his PG - 10 or 11 of his 31 PG), he would be slower so his movement is compromised, and his role is nullified by his lack of SP. So we can eliminate scouts and heavies, which means less options and even greater disadvantage. So now, you are forced into a disadvantageous situation where there is no adaptability, no variety, no chance.
Now, if we considered the fact that a vet would have all options, maximum CPU/PG along with reduction skills in weapon, cloak.. He can run a fully OP shotgun std scout which is fast, invisible, highly mobile and doesn't encounter any real restrictions of CPU/PG which maximize his suit and his advantage because the gap is cemented and in fact widening because they are unable to run equal fittings, equal classes, and never able to nullify bonuses (racial, suit, mods, passive cores, weapons). So this is why things are cemented, they are present, unable to be overcome even by increased skill the vast vast majority of the time.
I'm not even gonna get into how unfair it is to take on std tanks as a standard AV'er noob. But at the infantry level its impossible to overcome SP and because the advantages are inherent what happens is that they will be exploited. So matches will be in the current form but players will be able to select a ceiling (such as std suits and std mods) and bets will know exactly where noobs are and destroy them at a greater clip than presently occurring. Squads of NS ambush type elite SP + elite tactics will actually further this disparity than which is currently in the game because they can target these players directly by sorting based on tier type. Ouch, more NPE problems and this one would be worst.
I know that is long, but it answers your 2 questions. I would also like to add just because the current system is Broken and you see a way for noobs in std suits and gear to avoid Proto teams does not mean its the best solution. A SP + skilled based system is a superior choice because it inherently keeps vets and noobs apart, for the better. It also means Proto stompers will be matched against similarly skilled and similar SP players capable of running Proto themselves and making matchsd balanced because no team or player would have anything but a marginal advantage over another (given one skill tree is more linear, very a less linear less effective tree). Equally skilled players, capable of running equal suits and fittings, and the battle will be determined by the gameplay and tactics, team work and team composition..etc.. I have more but I'll leave you with that.
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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
44
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 00:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:And every pro tiericide thread always opens by dismissing any anti-tiercide people and claiming they never make a valid point. When you refuse to ever listen to an opposing opinion any pro-tiercide argument you give is inherently flawed.
There is no real problem with a tier-cide when it matches veterans with veterans. Both would have equally developed skill trees, equal most everything with only separation being based on how Linear A skill tree is and how well team compositions are, both positives. The system would make Proto vs Proto and adv vs adv matches, which are perfectly fair and balanced.
There are a few problems with this, one vets have no interest in competing vs one another (you can see this by the mass exodus of good players when they see good opponents)., and secondly vets do not want to go 12/12 continuously in a match because they are balanced. Thst same 12/12 player in a balanced march would rather to 18-4 in a non balanced match. Everyone wants to succeed, no one wants the constant grind and hardship of balance. They want easy mode matches, easy mode cloaks, one shot SG, tanks and ADS that repair armor faster than you can deplete it. You are going against a self interested community who run FOTM and complain about snipers and red lines. Snipers, who shoot pillows now, and the redline which they want removed so they can stomp you 0.05 seconds after you spawn and just want to spawn trap you for 120 of the 150 required kills.
Ok given that, the tier-cide system fails apart at the mlt and std levels. Regardless of BPO's or whatever else players are arguing. The systems flaws exploit, reinforce, expands on the current flawed system and even goes as far to provide a giant red flashing arrow sign where to find the most vulnerable of players. The system may not be a improvement but a step backwards.
So, a SP + skill based system is superior in every way but one, vets don't want to take on each other and also if we continue to alienate New Players there will be a giant gap in low tier membership. |
Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
44
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 00:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree with Zahou, just not on what is pressing matters.
1. Core gameplay issues:
Frame rate issues, lag, FPS/Vehicle controls and mechanics, lighting issues, etc.
2. matchmaking
3. Additional content:
more maps, more game modes, class/race parity, all racial equipment/vehicles, |
Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
44
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 01:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Miokai Zahou wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:And every pro tiericide thread always opens by dismissing any anti-tiercide people and claiming they never make a valid point. When you refuse to ever listen to an opposing opinion any pro-tiercide argument you give is inherently flawed. Thats because NONE have provided any valid argument against it or anything to back up their ideas. Ok here is my valid argument then. Teircide is a disease that needs to be put down now before it gets out of hand. This game and the developers need to focus on more pressing matters such as PVE, player market and releasing the rest of the racial wepons (fan fest hopefully). Once those issue are out of the way they then need to look into increasing players in matches and working on improving the frame rate (if possible). Until then stop talking about this silly far far into the future Teircide nonsense and focus on the current issues that are immediately lacking. (Note I'm not against the idea but what I'm against is taking dev time away from more crucial areas the game needs right now). There wont be a game to add stuff to when no new players stay more than a week.
Yup, but first we need to keep ppl from bailing who are playing currently |
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