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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
118
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Posted - 2014.05.01 08:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
So far I have not seen a single argument as to why its bad, other than people saying it'll somehow make it harder for new players by increasing some gap between vet and new players (news flash, it wont).
Could someone explain, in detail, just how that under the following scenario below: a. competitive gap will increase b. variety will vanish
Possible scenario 1. All suits are now PRO stat suits that unlock at lvl1 of their skill and progress by adding more SP. 2. STD and ADV suits are removed as they no longer serve a purpose. 3. All BPO's are converted to current ADV stats, no longer receive bonuses, but require no SP investment 4. AUR is transitioned away from buying gear to buying boosters and custom paintjobs for vehicles and suits. or other cosmetic items. 5. Tiered meta mods and weapons remain, as it is in EVE.
I admit, yes, there will still be a gap between a PROstat suit with basic mods vs a PROstat suit with PRO mods, but it is a far more favorable situation than a STDstat suit with basic mods vs a PROstat suit with pro mods.
What this will fix:
Primary a. New players will have a better chance when going up against vets, but there will be enough of a difference to encourage progression. b. A new player can spend their relatively low number of SP across a wider array of suits if only staying at lvl1. Currently a new player would have to grind for several weeks just to get one protosuit. This will allow the new player to try different roles, and be more flexible in battle.
Secondary a. prices for suits can be drastically lowered, reducing the need for PC isk farms. ISK could then be completely removed form PC in favor of materials. b. much easier for CCP to balance and introduce new roles in each suit catagory. c. not risk destroying matchmaking by spreading the playerbase thin with a SP/WP based matchmaking system. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
122
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Posted - 2014.05.01 15:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gaelon Thrace wrote:Literally every single post I've read that's opposed to tiericide has displayed a complete lack of understanding of what tiericide is or how it will work even though there have been several posts trying to explain it.
Exactly, people make all these claims but dont explain it. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
129
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Posted - 2014.05.01 18:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Because tiercide sucks
Vehicles are supposed to have it, yet it sucks and i have the slots layout of an old mlt tank
Vehicles wrent tiericided. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
129
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Posted - 2014.05.01 18:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Because tiercide sucks
Vehicles are supposed to have it, yet it sucks and i have the slots layout of an old mlt tank You didn't get tiericide, you got retardified. They'll eventually give you the better toys back. Although still quite possibly in a ret arded way. I doubt it They have taken skills, mods, turrets, vehicles and given nothing back
Vehicles still lack parity. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
135
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Posted - 2014.05.02 00:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:Django Quik wrote:Luk Manag wrote:They want to ruin Dust 514 by turning it into a casual arcade shooter that anyone can pick up and have a couple easy rounds and then never play Dust again...because if it is easy and fair more people will like it. Lamesauce. Tiericide does not go anywhere near completely disposing of the skill system, so it's still not even remotely like any casual shooter out there. There would still be skill levels and there would still be some disparity but we'd have less filler at the lower levels (standard suits) and more focus on things that are actually useful that everyone wants to use (proto suits) but can't because it takes 2 months of grind to reach (and that's not including weapons and mods and core skills that actually make a large amount of the difference). We used to have higher SP requirements for various suits and tanks. The SP needed for STD fits of multiple roles are given to every new character, and MLT tanks are perfectly viable as well. I hope for a long term plan to increase the SP tree, with more tiers, and more disparities...not less. You can do a lot with STD everything. The PRO level assault suits used to have 2 equipment slots, and there was endless moaning about how OP that was, all from players who haven't stuck around anyway, so now the PRO assault suit is barely worth the ISK.
Ah, so it comes out, you just want to have more stomping power. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
137
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Posted - 2014.05.02 00:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:And every pro tiericide thread always opens by dismissing any anti-tiercide people and claiming they never make a valid point. When you refuse to ever listen to an opposing opinion any pro-tiercide argument you give is inherently flawed.
Thats because NONE have provided any valid argument against it or anything to back up their ideas. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
137
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Posted - 2014.05.02 00:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
Primary a. New players will have a better chance when going up against vets, but there will be enough of a difference to encourage progression. b. A new player can spend their relatively low number of SP across a wider array of suits if only staying at lvl1. Currently a new player would have to grind for several weeks just to get one protosuit. This will allow the new player to try different roles, and be more flexible in battle.
Secondary a. prices for suits can be drastically lowered, reducing the need for PC isk farms. ISK could then be completely removed form PC in favor of materials. b. much easier for CCP to balance and introduce new roles in each suit catagory. c. not risk destroying matchmaking by spreading the playerbase thin with a SP/WP based matchmaking system.
Here's a quick response: Primary: A. Newbies should not be in the same match as a vet, anyone saying that a noob and get should be matched up against each other doesn't understand the problem tier-cide is trying to address, competitive balanced fair matches. This is the 100% reversal of encouraging progression! you are just placing the vets in a system similar to what we have now, but now you've made it easier because vets can easily find noobs to match up against. You cant argue for a system then suggest noobs can take on vets easier, they shouldn't be together. B. Spending SP across a wide range of items... Seems to counter everything CCP Devs's have said about wanting linear skill trees, the more you specialize the more successful you are at that role. Spreading SP and creating a tree with many weak branches is about as useful as comment A. Better to be master if a trade than mediocre at everything, so that point is mute too. Secondary: A 2. Prices for suits are fine, no one is having ISK problems and if they are they need to run cheaper suits to counter loses. I run 3 fits: 6k militia Forge gunner, adv scout with DL or RE + std cloak, advanced weapon, pro extenders, and mix of std and adv lows (armor, kin cat, Dampener) both fits are 30-38k. That means in a standard game, where ISK payouts are 250-300k, I can die 5-8 times and run a profit. If ISK becomes a problem, run a cheaper fit in some cases to allow for you to be able to run what you want later. This is the economy, this is what is suppose to occur risk vs reward. Yes, PC is broken, abused, and needs to be 100% remodelled and fixed. B 2. It's not much easier, what you're asking for is a complete overhaul. How do you get off on making ridiculous statements and playing all these things as facts? The suits tiers aren't great there are so many issues more pressing to be addressed. C 2. Matchmaking should 100% be made based on a SP + skill level factor (yes, WP should be a strong factor is such a skill score). This keeps vets away from noobs, the players we should be trying to protect and ease into the game. You can't throw them into the fire based on a tier-cide system, protect them hope they stick around and then bring them into the fold.
1. Newbies and vets should be in the same matches. Anything else goes against the sandbox nature of new eden. 2. By spreading at a low level, itll allow new players to try something before they commit all their points into it, and give them some flexibility. What about that is so hard to understand, or is bad for the game overall? CCP never said we would be limited to one role. also, "moot" 3.Prices for suits are terrible, because only those who receive PC welfare checks can run proto in pubs, thus pubstomp. So fix PC, and fix the suits. 4. Its not an overhaul, its just removing things which are useless. Not having to create 2 extra suits everytime you want to add a new role means CCP can spend time working on other content or balancing content already in the game. 5. SP/WP matchmaking only serves to segregate this already small community. Have fun waiting 10 minutes or longer to find a pub match.
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
137
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Posted - 2014.05.02 00:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:I answered your two questions in two separate threads.
The bonuses to suits, mods, racial bonus, passive cores, and in particular weapon proficiency will always mean the vet is going to win a gun battle. Even if we assume the noob is a better shot and can land 5-10% more on his target (given both have to be std weapons) he is unable to make up the disadvantage. The disadvantage is cemented when you spawn and the noob isn't going to overcome the disparity afforded by SP.
The new player, no matter which suit he runs (he is only going to run assault, ill show you later), will always be visible to the experience player. The new player weapon will always be more erratic and do less damage. He will face CPU/PG issues, issues his counterpart will not face, his suit will also have less Armor and shields no matter what. There are very few situations where the new player is going to overcome the obstacles and enjoy his stomp.
Wall of text, so I will try to discern meaning here.
Even though a new and vet player wouldnt have the exact same fitting power, they would be more comparable in terms of fitting, putting a greater dependence on personal skill, not gear. A proto suit with basic mods has a smaller gap than a standard suit with basic mods. Atleast with tiericide new players have a chance to do something other than get farmed.
What you propose will actually kill the game by spreading the community too thin. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
137
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Posted - 2014.05.02 00:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Miokai Zahou wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:And every pro tiericide thread always opens by dismissing any anti-tiercide people and claiming they never make a valid point. When you refuse to ever listen to an opposing opinion any pro-tiercide argument you give is inherently flawed. Thats because NONE have provided any valid argument against it or anything to back up their ideas. Ok here is my valid argument then. Teircide is a disease that needs to be put down now before it gets out of hand. This game and the developers need to focus on more pressing matters such as PVE, player market and releasing the rest of the racial wepons (fan fest hopefully). Once those issue are out of the way they then need to look into increasing players in matches and working on improving the frame rate (if possible). Until then stop talking about this silly far far into the future Teircide nonsense and focus on the current issues that are immediately lacking. (Note I'm not against the idea but what I'm against is taking dev time away from more crucial areas the game needs right now).
There wont be a game to add stuff to when no new players stay more than a week. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
139
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 01:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Miokai Zahou wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Miokai Zahou wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:And every pro tiericide thread always opens by dismissing any anti-tiercide people and claiming they never make a valid point. When you refuse to ever listen to an opposing opinion any pro-tiercide argument you give is inherently flawed. Thats because NONE have provided any valid argument against it or anything to back up their ideas. Ok here is my valid argument then. Teircide is a disease that needs to be put down now before it gets out of hand. This game and the developers need to focus on more pressing matters such as PVE, player market and releasing the rest of the racial wepons (fan fest hopefully). Once those issue are out of the way they then need to look into increasing players in matches and working on improving the frame rate (if possible). Until then stop talking about this silly far far into the future Teircide nonsense and focus on the current issues that are immediately lacking. (Note I'm not against the idea but what I'm against is taking dev time away from more crucial areas the game needs right now). There wont be a game to add stuff to when no new players stay more than a week. That is why PVE and player market needs to be introduced as soon as possible. The reason for this logic is that it will elevate the issues of new people having a hard time in matches by letting them do missions (quests) for SP and isk and also helps them understand how to shoot, control their merc and group up with friends to remove those nasty drone npcs/guards. The concept is to give players choice besides getting stomped on in matches.. With tanks... lots of damn tanks. Having a revamp on the core values on suits very well and good but it will not overall help the growth of this game if people can't chose to go out there and earn isk another way besides afking in the mcc. I remember when I first started I got head stomped by a proto player but thought that was ok because I could go and do a mission and learn how to play while earming some isk on the sidet... wait no missions? Ok... how about I go and sell the loot I gained at the end of the match... no market to sell to mercs? .... riiiight crap ok hard mode hat on. As you can tell I'm an eve player for many, many wonderful years and right now this game needs choice and not teircide, not yet anyway.
You really think CCP will do 100% safe PVE? LOL think again. |
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