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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2977
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
A good FPS player will make almost all combat decisions using their subconscious mind. This is because decisions that would take several seconds to make using their conscious mind can be made in small fractions of a second by their subconscious mind.
Training the subconscious mind to make these combat decisions is often referred to as muscle memory. You initially make the decision consciously, but every time you make the same decision in response to similar circumstances, you are developing a subroutine in your mind and teaching your subconscious that GÇ£in these circumstances you do thisGÇ¥. Once these subroutines are in place, they will continue to operate until you consciously or subconsciously reprogram it. A subconscious subroutine that helps you in DUST may have been developed when you were playing DOOM 20 years ago.
The best players may not be good teachers because they literally donGÇÖt know what they are doing. To be more precise, they are good because most of their decisions are made by their subconscious mind, allowing them to react 10 times, or maybe even 100 times, faster than someone who has to consciously think about what they should do. But because the decisions are subconscious, they donGÇÖt know they are making them, so in a very real sense, they donGÇÖt know what they are doing. They just do it.
Of course some really good players are also good teachers. There are two ways for a good player to know what they do to be good, in order to teach their methods to others. The first is for them to remember what they did to train themselves. Basically just remembering the subroutines from a time when they still had to think of them consciously, before muscle memory took over. The second is to observe themselves as if they were someone else watching them play, so their conscious mind can see what they do in specific situations, and to observe what works and what does not. A lot of people are not good at this. That is why a lot of competitive gamers will record themselves play, and then watch the recording to see what they did right and what they did wrong. Then they can consciously work on reprogramming their subconscious subroutines to make them better. This is a method often used by sports couches as well.
I believe that I am effective in writing guides partly because I am a slow learner, and partly because I am very self-aware. It takes me a lot more practice to commit decisions to muscle memory, creating those subconscious subroutines, than it would for most people. Being conscious of my decision process longer, and having to practice it more, makes it easier to remember later what I learned and how I learned it. Being self-aware allows me to analyse what I am doing, even after the decision process becomes subconscious. Granted, watching video of myself works even better, and I have done that in other games, but even without video I am fairly good at seeing what I am doing.
Of course the other thing that makes me a good guide writer is an ability to figure out how things work, but that is beyond the topic of this discussion. Here is a link to my Guides if anyone is interested.
So, for a good player to be a good instructor/teacher/coach they need to either remember their own learning process, or be able to analyse exactly what they are doing and why. Because young people learn so quickly, it is quite common for them not to remember their learning process, and to assume that anything they know is inherently obvious and everyone should know it. This is why it is common for young players to show great disdain for less skilled players. Thankfully not all young players show so little insight. Conversely, older players who have been playing video games for a long time may be performing subroutines they learned 10 or 20 years ago, and no longer remember what they did to learn to do what they do. They too can be very intolerant of inexperienced players, although it is less common in older players as wisdom often comes with experience.
There comes a point when a player reaches the limits of their natural talents. Most players stop improving at this point. Some get frustrated when they hit this wall, and quit. Others are quite satisfied to continue to play at that level, particularly if they are more interested in the social aspects of the game than the competitive side. But some are very competitive and realize that to get better they must push beyond their natural talent. These people are the ones who work on being more self-aware, asking themselves GÇ£what am I doing wrong?GÇ¥ and GÇ£how could I do this better?GÇ¥. These are the people who might watch recordings of their play, in order to spot the mistakes they were not aware of.
At the absolute panicle of game play, among the best of the best, you will find two types of people. The first are people with the greatest natural talent. They make terrible coaches. The second are people who got to the top by analyzing and improving everything they do. These people tend to be the best coaches in the game.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
4460
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree with this.
The best players are good because of muscle memory and experience.
The best teachers are players who can explain to others why they do what they do.
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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General John Ripper
20695
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
dude...
"The best players may not be good teachers because they literally donGÇÖt know what they are doing."
This is true. I always tell people that I learned how to play drunk. That my sober gaming is only a reflex left over from my drunken night gaming. People always laugh but in all honesty idk what I am doing lol. I am just a guy who likes to drink a beer, kick back, and shoot at some people. I was good at chess once but I am not some strategist mastermind. I have no idea how I would always get #1. Outkill people. Out WP people.
Stop liking my posts! Your killing me!! Noo! Arrgghhh!!!
:D
Twitter: IAmJohnRipper
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
4460
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
General John Ripper wrote:dude...
"The best players may not be good teachers because they literally donGÇÖt know what they are doing."
This is true. I always tell people that I learned how to play drunk. That my sober gaming is only a reflex left over from my drunken night gaming. People always laugh but in all honesty idk what I am doing lol. I am just a guy who likes to drink a beer, kick back, and shoot at some people. I was good at chess once but I am not some strategist mastermind. I have no idea how I would always get #1. Outkill people. Out WP people.
You wanna play chess?
I'm kinda the same way. I have a grasp of basic strategy, but no real "Strategy" that I employ
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
1333
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
okay, so WTH is figure-8 strafing, and why is it more effective?
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Operative 2511 Dajli
True Companion Planetary Requisitions
65
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Boy, that's a lot of words just to say something that is widely true about people in most any field or activity.
Creative people or people that do a certain something are usually not the ones that can describe what they are doing.
Artists like me rarely think about what we are creating. It's the writers that come up with all these intellectual, froo froo words to describe art.
Lol, the ban hammer got me!
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Operative 2511 Dajli
True Companion Planetary Requisitions
65
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
okay, so WTH is figure-8 strafing, and why is it more effective?
It's when you dance with a partner and do-si-do. Now allemande leftGǪ
Lol, the ban hammer got me!
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3543
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
You'd get more from good FC's explaining tactics and strategy. You can also explain how the great players trap lesser players into making it easier for them to kill.
Sometimes fitting mistakes can turn a player around. I recommended to a dude that he stop brick tanking his Min Assault and his weekly KDR doubled.
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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General John Ripper
20700
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:General John Ripper wrote:dude...
"The best players may not be good teachers because they literally donGÇÖt know what they are doing."
This is true. I always tell people that I learned how to play drunk. That my sober gaming is only a reflex left over from my drunken night gaming. People always laugh but in all honesty idk what I am doing lol. I am just a guy who likes to drink a beer, kick back, and shoot at some people. I was good at chess once but I am not some strategist mastermind. I have no idea how I would always get #1. Outkill people. Out WP people. You wanna play chess? I'm kinda the same way. I have a grasp of basic strategy, but no real "Strategy" that I employ
I am down to play a game.
Stop liking my posts! Your killing me!! Noo! Arrgghhh!!!
:D
Twitter: IAmJohnRipper
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Quil Evrything
Triple Terrors
1334
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:
Sometimes fitting mistakes can turn a player around. I recommended to a dude that he stop brick tanking his Min Assault and his weekly KDR doubled.
Sometimes, it's just all in the head.
One time, for whatever reason, I started playing free starter fits for a few games.
My KDR doubled.
Not because it was a better suit, but because of how the change somehow affected my attitude, and thus my playstyle.
(Then I decided to make it my regular suit, and consequently got sloppy.. and so once again, stopped using them  )
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D4GG3R
Heaven's Lost Property
Dirt Nap Squad.
217
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:I agree with this.
The best players are good because of muscle memory and experience.
The best teachers are players who can explain to others why they do what they do.
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
I prefer the "mash left analog stick in rapid and unpredictable directions strafe" but thats just me
Shout out to all my Pre-1.8 scout brothers!
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Seymor Krelborn
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
2220
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
while I agree that not all good players make good teachers, I don't think the opposite works, that some bad players are good teachers...
I do find validity in the old adage "those who can't do, teach" purely from an academic point of view, and I believe you fit in this category fox, but you have a much better chance of finding a good player who can teach more than a bad player could percentage wise... a bad player may learn from a book how to do something, but if he/she fails in demonstrating it's application the lesson is only half learned.
but this thread was an interesting piece of philosophy none the less.
this game makes me sad....
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D4GG3R
Heaven's Lost Property
Dirt Nap Squad.
217
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
okay, so WTH is figure-8 strafing, and why is it more effective?
Well you see, when you strafe, move your analog stick in the pattern of an 8 so that the bad guys dont shoot you.
Shout out to all my Pre-1.8 scout brothers!
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
4461
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
okay, so WTH is figure-8 strafing, and why is it more effective?
Figure 8 strafing is when you strafe in a figure 8 pattern.
It adds extra depth to your strafe, and is less predictable than circle strafing (Strafing in a circular pattern.)
You wanna really mess with someones aim? Figure 8 strafe on an incline. It adds both depth and height to the strafe, making it very difficult to stay on target.
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
4461
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
General John Ripper wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:General John Ripper wrote:dude...
"The best players may not be good teachers because they literally donGÇÖt know what they are doing."
This is true. I always tell people that I learned how to play drunk. That my sober gaming is only a reflex left over from my drunken night gaming. People always laugh but in all honesty idk what I am doing lol. I am just a guy who likes to drink a beer, kick back, and shoot at some people. I was good at chess once but I am not some strategist mastermind. I have no idea how I would always get #1. Outkill people. Out WP people. You wanna play chess? I'm kinda the same way. I have a grasp of basic strategy, but no real "Strategy" that I employ I am down to play a game.
http://lichess.org/ffi0slfD
This will join you to my game.
PLEASE NOTE, ONLY GJR SHOULD CLICK THIS
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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Zirzo Valcyn
Kameira Lodge
Amarr Empire
495
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
so true. when you play by instinct it frees up your consious mind to set up ambushes and play with enemies head. i will often tell my gunner, "hold your fire and let him build confidence" so enemy will overextend from his cover, . the PC war simulator MMOFPS Battleground Europe absoluetly demands that you play by instinct which is why it is a niche game. not many people have the patience for FPS instinct to develop which takes a certain learning period of being pwned until the instinct kicks in.
u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.
forum warrior .189
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D4GG3R
Heaven's Lost Property
Dirt Nap Squad.
217
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Quil Evrything wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
okay, so WTH is figure-8 strafing, and why is it more effective? Figure 8 strafing is when you strafe in a figure 8 pattern. It adds extra depth to your strafe, and is less predictable than circle strafing (Strafing in a circular pattern.) You wanna really mess with someones aim? Figure 8 strafe on an incline. It adds both depth and height to the strafe, making it very difficult to stay on target.
Only setback is it is easy to get in sync with a figure 8 strafe if you horizontal strafe at the right speed.
Shout out to all my Pre-1.8 scout brothers!
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Zirzo Valcyn
Kameira Lodge
Amarr Empire
495
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
D4GG3R wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Quil Evrything wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
okay, so WTH is figure-8 strafing, and why is it more effective? Figure 8 strafing is when you strafe in a figure 8 pattern. It adds extra depth to your strafe, and is less predictable than circle strafing (Strafing in a circular pattern.) You wanna really mess with someones aim? Figure 8 strafe on an incline. It adds both depth and height to the strafe, making it very difficult to stay on target. Only setback is it is easy to get in sync with a figure 8 strafe if you horizontal strafe at the right speed.
or you could just masshole them
u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.
forum warrior .189
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General John Ripper
20721
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:General John Ripper wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:General John Ripper wrote:dude...
"The best players may not be good teachers because they literally donGÇÖt know what they are doing."
This is true. I always tell people that I learned how to play drunk. That my sober gaming is only a reflex left over from my drunken night gaming. People always laugh but in all honesty idk what I am doing lol. I am just a guy who likes to drink a beer, kick back, and shoot at some people. I was good at chess once but I am not some strategist mastermind. I have no idea how I would always get #1. Outkill people. Out WP people. You wanna play chess? I'm kinda the same way. I have a grasp of basic strategy, but no real "Strategy" that I employ I am down to play a game. http://lichess.org/x4Go7XXOThis will join you to my game. PLEASE NOTE, ONLY GJR SHOULD CLICK THIS
haha I didn't mean now. I am expecting company soon. I realize an intellectual man who participates in vigorous sports like chess is sexy and all but I wanna keep it casual.
I will definitely make time for you tomorrow.
Stop liking my posts! Your killing me!! Noo! Arrgghhh!!!
:D
Twitter: IAmJohnRipper
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
4462
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
General John Ripper wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:General John Ripper wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:General John Ripper wrote:dude...
"The best players may not be good teachers because they literally donGÇÖt know what they are doing."
This is true. I always tell people that I learned how to play drunk. That my sober gaming is only a reflex left over from my drunken night gaming. People always laugh but in all honesty idk what I am doing lol. I am just a guy who likes to drink a beer, kick back, and shoot at some people. I was good at chess once but I am not some strategist mastermind. I have no idea how I would always get #1. Outkill people. Out WP people. You wanna play chess? I'm kinda the same way. I have a grasp of basic strategy, but no real "Strategy" that I employ I am down to play a game. http://lichess.org/x4Go7XXOThis will join you to my game. PLEASE NOTE, ONLY GJR SHOULD CLICK THIS haha I didn't mean now. I am expecting company soon. I realize an intellectual man who participates in vigorous sports like chess is sexy and all but I wanna keep it casual. I will definitely make time for you tomorrow.
Just tell me when. I can play anytime before 2:15PM EST.
Anyone else who wants to can click. http://lichess.org/x4Go7XXO
I'll play a bit, then I gotta take care of some homework.
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
4462
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zirzo Valcyn wrote:D4GG3R wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Quil Evrything wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
They understand tactics and strategy, and can explain why figure 8 strafing is more effective than circle strafing, other than just saying "it works" (Just an example)
okay, so WTH is figure-8 strafing, and why is it more effective? Figure 8 strafing is when you strafe in a figure 8 pattern. It adds extra depth to your strafe, and is less predictable than circle strafing (Strafing in a circular pattern.) You wanna really mess with someones aim? Figure 8 strafe on an incline. It adds both depth and height to the strafe, making it very difficult to stay on target. Only setback is it is easy to get in sync with a figure 8 strafe if you horizontal strafe at the right speed. or you could just masshole them
You don't strafe VS Mass Drivers. You rush them to force them to hurt themselves as they hurt you. Combine with a high DPS weapon, and you have a decent chance of winning.
Best way to deal with mass drivers is really just counter-suppression though. Force them into cover while you close the distance.
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
4462
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 21:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Damn, someone joined and immediately left :(
Guess I'll just play the computer then....
I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost
I hack at Mach V
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2984
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 12:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:while I agree that not all good players make good teachers, I don't think the opposite works, that some bad players are good teachers...
I do find validity in the old adage "those who can't do, teach" purely from an academic point of view, and I believe you fit in this category fox, but you have a much better chance of finding a good player who can teach more than a bad player could percentage wise... a bad player may learn from a book how to do something, but if he/she fails in demonstrating it's application the lesson is only half learned.
but this thread was an interesting piece of philosophy none the less.
True enough. A player who is bad due to inexperience has nothing to teach. A player who is bad due to lack of understanding of tactics and game mechanics will only teach misinformation. About the only type of bad player that could make a good teacher would be someone with a solid understanding of tactics and game mechanics who simply does not have the hand eye coordination to make it work on the battlefield. This was the category I fell into back in my D-Uni days as I had never owned a console before and it had been 20 years since I had played a FPS. Of course now I have over a year of FPS experience and I would no longer describe myself as a bad player.
The point of the article was to address the natural assumption that the best players would be the best people to give game play advice. While this is true in some cases, the fact that it is not true in many other cases is rather counter-intuitive, which is what makes the subject interesting. If I had written and article titled GÇ£Why Bad Players donGÇÖt necessarily make Good InstructorsGÇ¥ it would not have gotten much attention, as the premise is obvious.
Usually good instructors will be found among above average players, because the knowledge of the game needed to be a good instructor will also allow them to train themselves better, making them better than they would be if they relied on natural talent alone.
Ultimately you simply canGÇÖt tell how good someone is at instructing by their KDR or how well they do on the battlefield. You must identify a good instructor by the quality of his/her advice. If you donGÇÖt have the knowledge to judge the validity of someoneGÇÖs advice, watch for how experienced players react to that advice. Good players may not always be able to teach, but they can usually tell good advice from bad.
Finally, just because a player is not self aware enough to explain to you what they do, does not mean you canGÇÖt learn from watching them yourself. Top players can teach a lot simply by example. If you squad with a natural talent, and watch what they do, how they communicate, where they go, and what strategies they use; you can figure out for yourself why they do what they do, and how it makes them successful. So even people who canGÇÖt write a guide or instruct can still be good mentors.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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SoTa PoP
Heaven's Lost Property
Dirt Nap Squad.
4619
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
Best... players don't know what they're doing? Do you know Regynum knows the map by the grid unit? He actually uses them to give call outs in PC and people go "WTF IS THAT?!"
The rest of us just name landmarks, lol. To say good players don't necessarily make good teachers is very true, but more often then not good players = good teachers. They'll show you what to look out for and what's most important to do.
The training most of you guys speak of is gun-game, your on your own on that one. Keep playing and working on it, no trainer is going to improve it but yourself. But good players WILL be the best teachers for learning where to be and why for what team composition.
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++ I watch anime for the plot
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Kaughst
Nyain San
Dirt Nap Squad.
437
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
I concur doctor.
"He said he has a alt in STB."
"Everyone has a alt in STB."
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2989
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Posted - 2014.04.29 17:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote: Best... players don't know what they're doing?
It was a play on words. The conscious mind only knows what the unconscious mind is doing if you make a point of observing what it is doing, and in battle there are better things for your conscious mind to be doing, such as considering the larger tactical picture and what your team as a whole needs to do to win.
SoTa PoP wrote: Do you know Regynum knows the map by the grid unit? He actually uses them to give call outs in PC and people go "WTF IS THAT?!"
The rest of us just name landmarks, lol. To say good players don't necessarily make good teachers is very true, but more often then not good players = good teachers. They'll show you what to look out for and what's most important to do.
What I wouldnGÇÖt give for a set of Coordinates in the corner of my screen? Did you know I am a Cartographer in real life?
SoTa PoP wrote: The training most of you guys speak of is gun-game, your on your own on that one. Keep playing and working on it, no trainer is going to improve it but yourself.
See my signature.
SoTa PoP wrote: But good players WILL be the best teachers for learning where to be and why for what team composition.
Yes, but some Good players can explain it to you, while with other Good players you have to watch what they do and figure it out for yourself.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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knight of 6
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1839
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Posted - 2014.04.29 18:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
interesting, I agree that some decisions are made subconsciously, but at least for me they are things that can't really be taught or vary between people and builds. pathing and damage management are all but automatic but the in and out of combat is very much deliberate and conscience.
reloads... god reloading, reloading is something that is so automated that i can't turn it off. sometimes i find myself reloading in the middle of a fight and just think "why am I reloading now?" and the answer comes back in CoD 4 and the later MW games emptying the mag added a couple frames to the reload animation so I never ran the mag dry.
"I speak for the trees!"
Ko6 scout,
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Rage Racer
Sinister Souls
33
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Posted - 2014.04.29 21:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
I hate my subconscious. Every time I die it takes a few seconds for my conscious mind to catch up and the first thing that comes to my mind then is 'WTF WHY DID YOU DO THIS?! OF COURSE YOU WERE GOING TO DIE!' |
Free Beers
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2440
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Posted - 2014.04.29 21:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
back in my childhood I was my local putt-putt street fighter champ 2 years running. I just mashed buttons and people always asked me to teach them how and I had no idea. Muscle memory and mental memory is probably correct. After you learned the game you just react. I don't think I could teach people how to play dust to be elite but i could tell players all the bad things they do. Number one issues in dust is that 95% of player stand still when they shoot.
Every mercs life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and died that distinguishes one from another
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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
18
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Posted - 2014.04.29 21:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
There is no such thing as a subconscious mind, sorry.
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