DUST Search - Fix For Dropsuit Role Overlap

Korvin Lomont wrote:

ARF 1049 wrote:

Since everyone complains about scouts tanking it just pisses me off but if they are gonna complain so much buff ferroscale a bit and make the CPU and PG the same as there normal counterparts. then make scouts only able to run ferroscale and make the shield recharge on cal scouts 3 seconds like the rest, if they want there shield up faster put a module on it.

If we start here where should we stop? Sure scouts can brick tank (BTW like any other suit as well). But other suits can speed tank or stealth tank as well, they even can use the cloak? Should we prohibit all these different fits? How boring.

So once people can explain why its ok to speed tank heavies or assault but bad to brick tank scouts we can discuss on this matter.

BTW brick tanked scouts are slow as hell and for instance a brick tanked gal scout will be slower than a comparable brick tanked gal assault. The only advantage a brick tanked scout has is profile dampening and maybe the cloak.

But you have to consider that assaults did not get their balance pass yet. What CCP should do is give assaults more offensive bonuses to their racial weaponry. Currently only the amarr and partly the minmatar bonus is really worth the effort for the bonus.

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Meisterjager Jagermeister 62	Posted - 2014.04.24 03:25:00 - [1] - Quote The ability for a dropsuit to overlap roles has been a cause of some concern for many players, the latest example being "tanked scouts" and earlier "slayer logis" which are both able to outperform assault suits at assaulting. I propose a new categorization of dropsuit modules to help solidify a dropsuit's intended role on the battlefield. It is an intuitive system utilizing preexisting game mechanics that would not necessarrily require any alteration to the dropsuit's current slot layout. It would however alter the functionality of slots a bit. The system works as follows: All modules would fall into one of THREE categories: COMBAT, TECH or BOOSTER. Shield, Armor and Weapon modules would be COMBAT modules; Biotics, Electronics and Engineering would be TECH modules. CPU and PG upgrades would become BOOSTER modules. All modules would remain as they are currently with respect to which slot they fit into (ie: high or low) with only their new category added to them. Dropsuit High and Low slots would now have designations that work the same way Weapon Heavy, Light and Sidearm slots do. There would be three High and Low slot designations: COMBAT, TECH and UNRESTRICTED. A module of a COMBAT or TECH type may only be fit in its corresponding slot or an UNRESTRICTED slot. BOOSTER modules may be fit in any slot at the player's discretion. It may only be necessary to restrict one or two slots per dropsuit in this manner for a dropsuit's niche to be defined, thus preventing role overlap. A dropsuit may also have its cpu/pg increased without concern for its use toward building for different role. This system would also allow game designers greater ability to differentiate racial dropsuits across a single suit class. The one problem this system may present is its effect on basic dropsuits which have no defined role. A dropsuit completely unrestricted would become OP. This system may necessitate the reworking of slots for or perhaps removal of basic dropsuits above militia tier. Some of you may like this proposal, and certainly others will flame it. It may be far to late in the design process to implement this idea. I do believe however, it is worthy of debate.
Meisterjager Jagermeister 62	Posted - 2014.04.24 15:05:00 - [2] - Quote bump
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 13	Posted - 2014.04.24 15:32:00 - [3] - Quote CCP said themselves that they wanted a small overlap between suits. That said, a scout should not out-assualt an assault suit, nor should a logi. A scout should be allowed to be a little more assault if they so desire, but not enough to faze out the assault suit. I'm a minja scout, and I just take 2 basic shield extenders, a MLT kin-cat, and a basic scan radius booster (it's nice to keep tabs on enemies I'm trying to out-maneuver, or sneak up on.). If I go head-to-head with an assault, with both of us at full shields and armor, I will most likely lose (the exception is if they have some pretty bad gun-game).
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 399	Posted - 2014.04.24 16:14:00 - [4] - Quote Too complex to code, to interface, and to work with as a player. If it were up to me, specialized suits would have fewer slots than basic frames in exchange for role bonuses, making them more effective within the role than modules could ever make them but less effective outside of the role. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
Meisterjager Jagermeister 62	Posted - 2014.04.24 17:11:00 - [5] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Too complex to code, to interface, and to work with as a player. I don't agree with any of that. To code and interface might take some time, but it is not too complex. Otherwise we there wouldn't be Weapon Slot types. And too complex for players? That insults the intelligence of players.
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 13	Posted - 2014.04.24 17:19:00 - [6] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Too complex to code, to interface, and to work with as a player. I don't agree with any of that. To code and interface might take some time, but it is not too complex. Otherwise we there wouldn't be Weapon Slot types. And too complex for players? That insults the intelligence of players. Well, it would certainly impact the NPE and player retention...
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 399	Posted - 2014.04.24 18:22:00 - [7] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: Too complex to code, to interface, and to work with as a player. I don't agree with any of that. To code and interface might take some time, but it is not too complex. Otherwise we there wouldn't be Weapon Slot types. And too complex for players? That insults the intelligence of players. All right, allow me to clarify. It's not "too complex" in an absolute sense, but rather it adds too much complexity without sufficient benefit over other, less complex options. I have no problem with complexity so long as it's adding enough value that the complexity is worth it. This is unnecessary complexity. The stated goal can be accomplished without it. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 341	Posted - 2014.04.24 19:51:00 - [8] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: GÇª If it were up to me, specialized suits would have fewer slots than basic frames in exchange for role bonuses, making them more effective within the role than modules could ever make them but less effective outside of the role. Wasn't this what the frames were supposed to be? A general all-purpose suit with more slots to allow for greater flexibility? The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 144	Posted - 2014.04.24 19:57:00 - [9] - Quote Wow. Over the MONTHS (actually YEARS...Beta was were it began) there has been a player war waged, and the prize was "Posession of the FPS Construct of Dust". Players realized that (partly due to this forum and its open-dialogue/feedback policy), if the could "bend" this game into being more like the TRADITIONAL fps structure with four rigid combat-character-roles to choose from and a MAXI-proton gun as the top prize everyone advances toward--OR--protect the game in its attempt to be a full INNOVATOR that has no rigid defined soldier-type to pick, and let's players customize his career path like he customizes his apartment at home... the winner would be able to dictate to CCP how this game evolves from that point forward. No kidding, it was a BRUTAL power struggle, on more than one "Dust Forum Site", and it caused many classic FPS lovers to say "screw you nutty players and screw CCP--I'm not playing this jacked-up, anti-christ game no more--and you guys don't know how to make an FPS the right way!" Eventually the gamers who wanted Dust to emulate the classic FPS structure they are accustomed to, lost the fight and closed their mouths or exitted. The "overlap" of "roles" is what Dust is INTENDED to have and is even marketed by CCP as their main selling feature---it won't be changed, no matter what new players get irritated or confused by it at first. So, the crazy mental-patient says "there's nothing wrong with me, I'm sane!" LOL. There's nothing that needs fixing in Dust's roles--because players are being (silently) encouranged to innovate well outside the constraints of "roles". In effect--forget "roles" (or maybe create our own). I always tell myself, you're not developing the combat suit and gear thats assigned to you. You're developing a character named CELESTA AUNGM. Like a blank doll. You pay for it to go to school, invest in different courses, decide a trade, realize you hate your job but found a cooler one. You're training a character---it's not pick-a-soldier-type and buy-a-silencer-attachment. I know, it's weird and takes getting used to. But it's not going to be fixed, because by now so many of us have decided to support CCP's idea that it's not broken. Are you in a "Role" of some kind that you want to perfect, Meisterjager? You've got me curious? Yum!
Meisterjager Jagermeister 63	Posted - 2014.04.25 04:32:00 - [10] - Quote CELESTA AUNGM wrote: ....The "overlap" of "roles" is what Dust is INTENDED to have and is even marketed by CCP as their main selling feature--- Wow indeed CELESTA AUNGM. I agree with you to a point. In beginning my reply to you in defense this position, I reread my op and realized I did in fact use the phrase "thus preventing role overlap". This is unfortunate as this is not what I intended to convey. What I suggest is not to prevent but LIMIT role overlap. Yes it is a strength that a player may take what is available and through clever application make something better of it. It is this very strength that attracted me to DUST 514, to the point where if this is not possible in other FPS then I don't want to play it. However, it is clear CCP intended for there to be some separation of dropsuit roles as evidenced by six battlefield jobs divided over three dropsuit weight classes. My suggestion is meant to help create a buffer between these intended roles, not eliminate a player's ability to make more of a dropsuit than its play style suggests. Again, when a suit from one weight class with an intended style of play built into it can be tweaked to outperform another suit at its own style of play then the game designers are faced with a dilemma: correct it or let it be. If they let it be, then some day soon we may see PILOT suits footing it around the burn zone out logi-ing the logi. We'll call them pilogits. If they let it be, then why bother with any sort of role classification at all? Why not create a single, generic dropsuit where all possible variables are relegated to modules? I'm confident CCP will take some action to correct the situation in a way that doesn't prevent a play style but protects years of hard work and planning.

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2433	Posted - 2014.04.25 05:39:00 - [11] - Quote Nothing needs to be done about the scout. The assault class just needs to be the best in a niched area, just like logis, commandos, sentinels, tanks, dropships, LAVs and scouts. HTFU Gë£ Live with CCP´s mistakes. CCP Rogue is french, CCP Sabrewing is a beefcake.
ARF 1049 The Phoenix Federation 100	Posted - 2014.04.25 06:25:00 - [12] - Quote Since everyone complains about scouts tanking it just pisses me off but if they are gonna complain so much buff ferroscale a bit and make the CPU and PG the same as there normal counterparts. then make scouts only able to run ferroscale and make the shield recharge on cal scouts 3 seconds like the rest, if they want there shield up faster put a module on it. "In rust you trust, so in rust you shall die."
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 753	Posted - 2014.04.25 08:12:00 - [13] - Quote Denn Maell wrote: Goric Rumis wrote: GÇª If it were up to me, specialized suits would have fewer slots than basic frames in exchange for role bonuses, making them more effective within the role than modules could ever make them but less effective outside of the role. Wasn't this what the frames were supposed to be? A general all-purpose suit with more slots to allow for greater flexibility? specialized suits should have different slot layouts not necessarily more or less but different that compliment theyre role. in eve you get 4 skill bonuses and 1 role bonus for using a specialized ship usually that definitely encourages certain fits. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 938	Posted - 2014.04.25 12:13:00 - [14] - Quote ARF 1049 wrote: Since everyone complains about scouts tanking it just pisses me off but if they are gonna complain so much buff ferroscale a bit and make the CPU and PG the same as there normal counterparts. then make scouts only able to run ferroscale and make the shield recharge on cal scouts 3 seconds like the rest, if they want there shield up faster put a module on it. If we start here where should we stop? Sure scouts can brick tank (BTW like any other suit as well). But other suits can speed tank or stealth tank as well, they even can use the cloak? Should we prohibit all these different fits? How boring. So once people can explain why its ok to speed tank heavies or assault but bad to brick tank scouts we can discuss on this matter. BTW brick tanked scouts are slow as hell and for instance a brick tanked gal scout will be slower than a comparable brick tanked gal assault. The only advantage a brick tanked scout has is profile dampening and maybe the cloak. But you have to consider that assaults did not get their balance pass yet. What CCP should do is give assaults more offensive bonuses to their racial weaponry. Currently only the amarr and partly the minmatar bonus is really worth the effort for the bonus.
Meisterjager Jagermeister 63	Posted - 2014.04.25 14:56:00 - [15] - Quote Edited op to add the following: Just as weapon slots have a letter H, L or S in the square, each slot with a designation would have a either a T or C in it. Unrestricted squares would remain blank.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2160	Posted - 2014.04.25 14:58:00 - [16] - Quote Dropsuit overlap isn't a bad thing, but you have to figure out how to ensure every suit has a chance at being useful and good. I think assaults need more in terms of damage capability, so that people can't get the equivalent DPS potential out of logis or speed-tanked heavy suits. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 145	Posted - 2014.04.25 18:47:00 - [17] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: CELESTA AUNGM wrote: ....The "overlap" of "roles" is what Dust is INTENDED to have and is even marketed by CCP as their main selling feature--- Wow indeed CELESTA AUNGM. I agree with you to a point. In beginning my reply to you in defense this position, I reread my op and realized I did in fact use the phrase "thus preventing role overlap". This is unfortunate as this is not what I intended to convey. What I suggest is not to prevent but LIMIT role overlap. ........ Again, when a suit from one weight class with an intended style of play built into it can be tweaked to outperform another suit at its own style of play then the game designers are faced with a dilemma: correct it or let it be. ..... I'm confident CCP will take some action to correct the situation in a way that doesn't prevent a play style but protects years of hard work and planning. To this end I offered my idea. NICE reply!! Meisterjager, though I don't agree with you, your point of view deserves A LOT OF RESPECT. On a freindly wager, say, umm....5 million ISK (seriously! I'm good for it! No New Eden sucker--deception), I'd bet that CCP doesn't correct their overlap's ability to allow a "scout" to outweigh a "heavy's" EHP performance. Not unless it seriously leads to player abuse/exploit. I get the impression CCP only moves numbers around when their recording of the gameplay indicates that "imbalance of player BEHAVIOR" that is starting to be clarified more and more these days. "Roles" in Dust's suits MAY have been a wise marketing move, to ease players through the front door and let them cling to some famiiar fps anchors while they try the game, rather than alienate them with all of Dust's "innovation" too soon. Or maybe roles were created to have a shelf of "manufacture models" with innate bonuses (bonuses that once tried to attack specific problems a "scout", "support gunner" "assault-trooper" might typically face)...all just so that a player could pimp her suit off of something already on the shelf, and not have to build from scratch. Some of us like building a thing from scratch (an option arguably offered by the non-bonused racial suits) but, for me it's more intriguing to take a brand that one of the corps already built, and mutate for my motives. I suspect the result of all this EHP and role-suiting is "overload of tech information" as you're walking up to your next potential victim on the battlefield. It's a confusion and frustration that I actually enjoy seeing in fellow players. You buy a "commando" suit with the expectation that, with some proto-unlocking, it will easily outpound this girl you're walking up to who your HUD tells you is a "scout" by way of the dropsuit she's wearing. The basic tech-info your scanner is feeding you is incorrect---she's a DS driver WEARING a scout suit. Follow-up info from your HUD tells you she's positively GLOWING with 750EHP, and that you're chance of smoking her is only 40% with your RR, but the overlapping information just isn't regestering anymore, and your EXPECTATION has taken over completely. By the time your face-off finishes, she's running away from where she just left your dissolving clone corpse. The New Eden data technology is INCREDIBLE on the battlefield, but there is so little time to take it all in before you pull the trigger, so you just go on gut EXPECTATION based on "role". I think that Dust should continue to allow someone to pimp a suit WAY outside of her opponent's expectation of her suit's fighting-class. I don't always like getting badly surprised and slapped in the face by my prey...but I LOVE that this game can do that to me!
ARF 1049 The Phoenix Federation 100	Posted - 2014.04.25 20:19:00 - [18] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: ARF 1049 wrote: Since everyone complains about scouts tanking it just pisses me off but if they are gonna complain so much buff ferroscale a bit and make the CPU and PG the same as there normal counterparts. then make scouts only able to run ferroscale and make the shield recharge on cal scouts 3 seconds like the rest, if they want there shield up faster put a module on it. If we start here where should we stop? Sure scouts can brick tank (BTW like any other suit as well). But other suits can speed tank or stealth tank as well, they even can use the cloak? Should we prohibit all these different fits? How boring. So once people can explain why its ok to speed tank heavies or assault but bad to brick tank scouts we can discuss on this matter. BTW brick tanked scouts are slow as hell and for instance a brick tanked gal scout will be slower than a comparable brick tanked gal assault. The only advantage a brick tanked scout has is profile dampening and maybe the cloak. But you have to consider that assaults did not get their balance pass yet. What CCP should do is give assaults more offensive bonuses to their racial weaponry. Currently only the amarr and partly the minmatar bonus is really worth the effort for the bonus. Well I have a healthy scout that is the only one I use, about 300 armor 100 shield and it works well, I understand people not liking them, I sorta do it for my Proto fits, but it's a dual tank. 350+ armor and 230+ shield so I mean I understand where the game is coming from in this sense. the thing people don't like about it is that the regents on the two main scouts are incredible, 2 seconds and your shields fly up, my Proto ScR has close to 10 hp/s of armor rep, so it's not hard to be mad at them, plus there smaller hotbox is troublesome for bad shots. "In rust you trust, so in rust you shall die."


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