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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5178
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Posted - 2014.04.20 08:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:You arrive at an objective and there is a cloaked scout-shotty waiting in the corner. How do you propose to see him with your eyes?
Because while standing still, THERE'S STILL A FAINT SHIMMER. Cloaked players AREN'T completely invisible, and better yet, YOUR CROSSHAIRS STILL LIGHT UP WHEN YOU AIM AT THEM, just in case you miss the obvious player outline. If they're hiding "around the corner" then you do what you already had to do for uncloaked and dampened Scouts, and LOOK AROUND THE CORNER IN CASE THERE'S A HIDDEN SCOUT.
Quote:Cloakheads aren't always running in front of you where you can see them shimmer. Most of the time, they are cloaked waiting or running up behind you. The only counter would be that EVERYWHERE you go, you must CAREFULLY survey the area for your crosshairs to turn red. Hopefully, your back doesn't turn from them or they don't just pop you with the shotgun before they decloak if you happen to walk right in front of them.
Or, you know, be COMPETENT and quickly pan across an area a little above ground level while watching for the crosshairs to turn red. You can accurately cover over 50m in less than a second if you're armed with any Rifle or pistol, or even the MagSec. The SMG is a little short of that range, and if you're running a Shotgun you need to be more alert to see cloakers in the distance.
Quote:I understand cloaks are here to stay....but remove the dampening bonus, remove the decloaking animation when changing your weapon, and you should decloak or be at maximum shimmer when you take damage.
I agree with REDUCING the dampening bonus, but not removing it - at least not as a fist step. They do need to rebalance the EWAR facet of the game though, at present it's too heavily weighted in favour of dampening. Dampened suits, with or without cloak, can become invisible to any detection method, and while that's fine, it's a little TOO easy for some suits to reach that level of complete invisibility. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5178
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Posted - 2014.04.20 08:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:Lonewolf Heavy wrote:How will cloaking work however? There will be more details to come - but after discussion with the CPM, CCP Remnant and Wolfman decided to go with implementing a design that will mean you are not able to fire while cloaked. This was something that the Community / CPM seemed fairly keen on and Cloaking will be used primarily as a relocation / movement tool. We're still working out the kinks and nothing is final, but just to let you guys know that we love the feedback and I promise you that we're crawling through your posts. :) The fact that you can fire while cloaked is my only real complaint with cloaks.
Well, fortunately for everyone else, this only happens with glitches now.
There's a very rarely-used glitch (the easy way got patched) where players can remain cloaked with their weapons drawn, but other than that, switching to your weapon IMMEDIATELY begins the decloak animation, which is visible before your weapon is in your hand and able to be used. While in the decloak animation, you're not 100% visible immediately, but you're more visible than even the brightest shimmer effect makes you. Players who are ACTUALLY INVISIBLE while shooting you are BEHIND YOU and would be invisible without a cloak.
Also, there's a decloak sound (which could do with having its volume tweaked) which also plays IMMEDIATELY when you switch to your weapon. If it was playing consistently, and was loud enough to hear over gunfire, it would be a good warning sign that a cloaked player was appearing next to you. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5178
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Posted - 2014.04.20 08:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:The way cloaks were intended to work is fine.
The way they actually function in game due to bugs makes them overpowered. One such bug was demonstrated in Judge's video in case 4.
You mean the one where you can see the cloaked Scout? Or the shot at the end where Judge points to the wrong part of the screen to try and prove the cloaked Scout is invisible? Case 3 was actually harder to spot the cloaked player in, and that was a situation where an uncloaked player would be almost invisible too.
Quote:When several cloak users on the forums claim that these bugs don't exist and that cloaks are perfectly fine, I can't help but think that they've turned cloaks into their crutch. After all, they are insisting that their toy which is broken in a manner that favors them isn't broken. -_-
And what do you call it when someone who's never equipped a cloak before is defending the cloak? Am I relying on it as a "crutch" too? By not using it, and frequently killing cloaked and freshly-decloaked players and only rarely being ACTUALLY caught off-guard (almost every instance of which has been my own mistake).
Quote:As for the whole scouts brick tanking, that's another issue I cover in the link below.
Is that one of the "buff Assaults" threads? I hope so, because Assaults do need a buff. Scouts are fine. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5178
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Posted - 2014.04.20 09:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I am going to record and post a video of how ridiculous and impractical it is to play a game scanning and looking for my crosshairs to turn red every time I leave and enter an area......or to look for "faint shimmers". My job for the entire game will be looking for these faint shimmers or cloaked scout clues instead of playing objectives.
It literally takes less than a second to check the area for more than 50m ahead of yourself. And you can do it while at a full sprint, or while moving at normal speed, and keep a good eye out across a wide area in front of you. The only thing you need to change is to pan your viewpoint rather than keeping it fixed on a single point. When you're going into a high-risk location (only objectives, pretty much), it's worth taking a quick look around the area even WITHOUT cloaked enemies, to look for dampened Scouts or even some Logis who don't show up on your scanners. It's also worth checking objectives for REs (and with a lot of objectives, looking miles above the objective for the magical floating REs that should be on the objective and still explode like they are even if you have to shoot them up in the sky to make an explosion at ground level).
I'm not seeing the problem. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5178
|
Posted - 2014.04.20 09:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thurak1 wrote:( LOL! ccp and crack programmers in same sentence )
I don't see what's so funny. Feeding their programmers drugs might explain a few of the decisions I've seen CCP make.
Quote:Myself i would be happy if the cloak made a distinct noise when activated or de-activated like in TF2 :)
THERE IS ALREADY A SOUND WHEN DECLOAKING.
The problem is that it needs more volume and higher priority. The sound frequently doesn't play when other sounds are audible, even when the cloaker is right next to you and the other sounds are faint and distant. It's also very quiet for everyone but the cloaker, even when they're close, and if you're shooting or there's any other nearby sound, you'll probably miss the decloak sound even when it does play.
if they fix that, it'll improve things a lot. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5178
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Posted - 2014.04.20 09:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:I'm not seeing the problem. 
I was hoping someone would pick that up.  |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5184
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Posted - 2014.04.20 19:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:There may be lag issues involved but i doubt it - the lag between the decloak sound and the first shot is virtually nil. I play with headphones and since i'm typically hacking points solo i literally live and die by the decloak sound. The time between the sound playing and getting OHKed is measured in fractions of a second - I may be slow, but i'm not that slow.
If there are issues, they're almost certainly related to lag. When I'm watching cloaked players kill from cloak, and the sound actually plays audibly, it ALWAYS plays AT LEAST half a second (usually closer to a full second) before their first shot for me, and I'm not based in the most latency-friendly part of the world, so I should be seeing some of the worst the game has to offer.
Quote:Also, the decloak sound for spawning needs to be different.
No, it really doesn't. Decloaking is decloaking.
Quote:Regarding decloaking and visibility, does the game guarantee that a shot will not register before the decloaking animation renders for the cloaker's target in all lag/latency situations? My experience here says no, it doesn't.
I have yet to see a situation where the decloaking animation hadn't started before the first shot, but as with the sound issue, that doesn't prove it can't happen. Given my location, it seems unlikely.
To be fair, I haven't tried studying cloakers in PC like I have in pubs, so the additional lag issues stemming from that environment may exacerbate the situation to the point where these events ARE happening concurrent with, or even after, the first shots fired from cloak. For pubs it seems pretty reliable, though. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5184
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Posted - 2014.04.20 20:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:You can fire cloaked, firing two shotgun rounds before you're visible is firing cloaked.
Yes, and if you actually COULD fire 2 shots before being visible at all, you'd have a point.
Barring glitches, which have no bearing on a discussion about balance, you can't, and you don't.
If a person is FULLY CLOAKED and firing, then they're EXPLOITING A GLITCH to switch to their weapon without decloaking. If they aren't exploiting a glitch, then they're already in a decloaking animation and at the highest visibility a player can be without the cloak being fully deactivated BEFORE they can fire.
Also, even while standing still in ideal conditions, a cloaked player WILL BE VISIBLE if you're in range for them to hit with a Shotgun. Unless you're facing the wrong way. Or have bad eyesight. Or have your TV set up wrong. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5186
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Posted - 2014.04.21 09:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:No. When I say case 4, I mean Case 4. And when I say bug in reference to software, it means something not working as intended. After watching it, did you notice anything? Or rather a lack of mechanic kicking in that makes the cloaked merc shimmer for running at full speed? That bug?
Ah, right. I was thinking primarily of the screenshots, of which shot 4 has a visible cloaked player, not an invisible one. The video clips aren't as clearly labeled, and there aren't 4 of them, hence the confusion. That said, bugs aren't relevant to a discussion about balance, so when dicussing balance as this thread has been, I tend to discount bugs. I agree that the bugs with cloak need addressing. I also think the problems with the lack of volume and priority on the decloak sound should be addressed because at present, it's often too hard to hear when it should be obvious.
Quote:Honestly? I'd call you an idiot for defending bugs. Don't be upset, you asked. Normally when something's not working as intended, people want to fix it. I don't know. Maybe you're one of those cartoon ostrich that burry their head in the sand whenever a problem arises, insisting nothing is wrong? By the way, even real ostriches aren't that stupid.
My point in this thread is to say that the cloak isn't OP and that AS A GENERAL RULE it doesn't allow players to be as "invisible" as many people claim it does. I'm arguing that bugs aren't relevant to a balance discussion, because that's what this thread has turned into, regardless of what your personal involvement in the thread was intended to be.
Quote:You falsely assume I'm advocating for a cloak nerf; I'm not. I simply want bugs resolved. Just like how I advocated for fixing the active vehicle armor rep bug that never got fixed in the past. If the bugs that plague the cloak effected the cloak in a way that was unfavorable to the cloak user, I would still be advocating to fix it.
I don't assume anything. I'm referencing your post[/quote]
As mentioned, I also advocate bug fixes. What I don't advocate is using bugs to support your argument in a discussion about balance, which many people HAVE been doing in threads such as this one.
Quote:No, it's one of those here's a problem with medium frames and what we should do to address it.
Although if you actually bothered to click the link, you would've known. Which begs the question, why did you even have to ask?
Yes, I did have to ask because I had a migraine and reading more than I needed to would have hurt more than asking a question which framed itself within the most logical context. And as for saying there's a problem, the problem is that medium frames - Assaults in particular - are currently underpowered and need a slight buff. That problem, unlike your arguments in this thread, is relevant to discussions about balance. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
5188
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Posted - 2014.04.21 20:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:pseudosnipre wrote:Leonid Tybalt wrote:My issue with cloaks is that a cloaked scout is hard to ******* see. Working as intended? I'm fine with the effect. But i'm not fine with the fact that it doesn't have any drawbacks at all and nothing being able to counter it. The way the cloak currently works doesn't call for any skill of the user, the deck is simply stacked in the cloak users favor.
Not being able to have your weapon drawn while invisible isn't a drawback?
Being partially visible at all times and more visible when moving isn't a drawback?
Having a sound play when you switch off your invisibility BEFORE you can fire your weapon or use whatever other equipment you have isn't a drawback?
The high PG and CPU cost isn't a drawback?
They're all there, and they're at least as serious drawbacks as what you get for equipping a Scanner, Nanohive, Repair Tool, etc. if not moreso in some aspects.
The deck is stacked in the favour of GLITCHES with the cloak, and in favour of AWARENESS when it's working properly. As long as cloaking is working properly (which I'm pretty sure is most of the time), there shouldn't be a problem. |
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