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SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:43:00 - [1] - Quote EWAR made simple, fair, and logical. SirManBoy's Dust 514 EWAR Proposal Modules should win the EWAR and the medium frames should have a place in the discussion. However, it should be slanted in the favor of scounts in a significant way. Please review my graphic and comment. A few key elements: No more dampening bonuses for cloaks--only mods matter. A one module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow one scout to have a clear advantage over another. A two module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow a medium to have an advantage over a scout. All other things equal, a Gallante scout is invisible to a Caldari scout. <--Dampening bonus > Precision Enhancement bonus All other things equal, a Caldari scout can detect Amarr and Minmatar scouts. <--Precision Enhancement bonus > no bonus Thanks, SirManBoy
Toby Flenderson research lab 484	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:47:00 - [2] - Quote The only thing I think people forget about is that dampeners only can help the user and can actually be negated by teammates running too close without such dampening. Precision enhancers can help everyone in your squad. In theory, it may only take 1 person with enough precision to foil multiple dampened players. I think for this reason there should be a slight advantage to the dampeners. Otherwise, I like these ideas.
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 434	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:47:00 - [3] - Quote as a scout I approve Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 275	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:51:00 - [4] - Quote I actually like the idea that cloaks give us a temporary buff to profile dampening. Personally I think CCP should include a 10% reduction buff to any suit who crouches and a 20% penalty to PD while running. Makes the EWAR gameplay more fluid. In order to expand the EWAR game, we'd need to give optimal ranges to scanners, and introduce new equipments (such as remote sensor scramblers to disrupt enemy sensors). The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
Space Marine One Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 11	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:58:00 - [5] - Quote what we need is Motion sensor( movement) and acoustic locator module(detect weapon fire) i.e MAG
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 502	Posted - 2014.04.15 10:04:00 - [6] - Quote Anyone else care to comment? I plan on altering the graph a bit later today for better visual effect. One of the points of my plan is that it clearly establishes a negative relationship between EWAR modules (dampeners and enhancers) and HP modules (armor plates and shield extenders). This effectively makes people choose between dual tanking or much improved stealth or detection capabilities. In the end, your committment level to health, stealth, or detection has real trade offs for scout and medium frame players alike.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2006	Posted - 2014.04.15 10:21:00 - [7] - Quote incorrect title. EWAR is much more than just scanning. Also, you left out active scanners. Also, mediums would been good at EWAR, nor would they (because they're too slow and is easily detectable), nor were they meant to be. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 502	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:28:00 - [8] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: incorrect title. EWAR is much more than just scanning. Also, you left out active scanners. Also, mediums would been good at EWAR, nor would they (because they're too slow and is easily detectable), nor were they meant to be. It was my intention to leave them out as it is a factor that I would not change. Also, my proposal doesn't make mediums "good" at EWAR, it simply allows them to engage in EWAR in a substantive way against scouts who choose ample HP over radar stealth or exceptional radar detection. Had you examined my graphic you would see that even a medium with four dampeners or enhancers--an absurd and totally impractical amount of modules--is still worse at EWAR than: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. A Caldari scout with four complex precision enhancers. 3. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 4. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Caldari scout with three complex precision enhancers. 6. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 7. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 8. A Minmatar scout with three complex precision enhancers. I repeat, all eight of those possibilities would defeat a logi with either 4 complex dampeners (the Amarr logi isn't even capable of that) or 4 complex enhancers (only the Caldari and Minmatar logis have this capability) and the sacrifice to do so would be so crippling that it would almost never be worth it. What my proposal does change, however, is that it allows mediums to no longer get radar ganked by scouts who barely dampen their suit. As a logi with level 5 skills in precision enhancement and suits equiped with three complex precision enhancers, I shouldn't be getting snuck up on by scouts with only 1 complex dampener or less. Even I, a lowly medium frame, should have the option to enjoy radar supremacy over scouts who think they can have their cake and EWAR too (HP and stealth). Under my system, both scouts and mediums get to play the EWAR game, but everyone has to sacrifice something to do it. However, it is still overwhelming slanted in favor of scouts and scouts have to give up far less than mediums do to establish radar superiority. For instance, under my proposal, my own setup would be defeated in EWAR by: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 3. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 4. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 6. A medium frame with four complex dampeners. 7. A Gallante scout with two complex dampeners. 8. A Caldari scout with two complex dampeners. 9. An Amarr scout with two complex dampeners. 10. A Minmatar scout with two complex dampeners. 11. A medium frame with three complex dampeners. Does it sound like I would be "good" at EWAR to you?
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1453	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:35:00 - [9] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: EWAR made simple, fair, and logical. SirManBoy's Dust 514 EWAR Proposal Modules should win the EWAR and the medium frames should have a place in the discussion. However, it should be slanted in the favor of scounts in a significant way. Please review my graphic and comment. A few key elements: No more dampening bonuses for cloaks--only mods matter. A one module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow one scout to have a clear advantage over another. A two module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow a medium to have an advantage over a scout. All other things equal, a Gallante scout is invisible to a Caldari scout. <--Dampening bonus > Precision Enhancement bonus All other things equal, a Caldari scout can detect Amarr and Minmatar scouts. <--Precision Enhancement bonus > no bonus Thanks, SirManBoy I would want about 10 mil SP in return... Thank you... Can't fight a scout with 200 HP ?! Use a Scanner with Proper Modules: Gal Logi + Modules + Scanner > Most scouts (Except for a gal scout with 4 profile dampeners, but a gal scout with 4 PD deserves it) Cal Scout with all Ewar modules : 185k and can help a sqaud against any scout and team (Cost is too high, but it's all about the team work) So stop whining and start using proper modules with proper suits... CCP already made these available... I have yet to see a gal scout with 4 dampeners...
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1453	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:43:00 - [10] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: incorrect title. EWAR is much more than just scanning. Also, you left out active scanners. Also, mediums would been good at EWAR, nor would they (because they're too slow and is easily detectable), nor were they meant to be. It was my intention to leave them out as it is a factor that I would not change. Also, my proposal doesn't make mediums "good" at EWAR, it simply allows them to engage in EWAR in a substantive way against scouts who choose ample HP over radar stealth or exceptional radar detection. Had you examined my graphic you would see that even a medium with four dampeners or enhancers--an absurd and totally impractical amount of modules--is still worse at EWAR than: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. A Caldari scout with four complex precision enhancers. 3. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 4. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Caldari scout with three complex precision enhancers. 6. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 7. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 8. A Minmatar scout with three complex precision enhancers. I repeat, all eight of those possibilities would defeat a logi with either 4 complex dampeners (the Amarr logi isn't even capable of that) or 4 complex enhancers (only the Caldari and Minmatar logis have this capability) and the sacrifice to do so would be so crippling that it would almost never be worth it. What my proposal does change, however, is that it allows mediums to no longer get radar ganked by scouts who barely dampen their suit. As a logi with level 5 skills in precision enhancement and suits equiped with three complex precision enhancers, I shouldn't be getting snuck up on by scouts with only 1 complex dampener or less. Even I, a lowly medium frame, should have the option to enjoy radar supremacy over scouts who think they can have their cake and EWAR too (HP and stealth). Under my system, both scouts and mediums get to play the EWAR game, but everyone has to sacrifice something to do it. However, it is still overwhelming slanted in favor of scouts and scouts have to give up far less than mediums do to establish radar superiority. For instance, under my proposal, my own setup would be defeated in EWAR by: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 3. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 4. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 6. A medium frame with four complex dampeners. 7. A Gallante scout with two complex dampeners. 8. A Caldari scout with two complex dampeners. 9. An Amarr scout with two complex dampeners. 10. A Minmatar scout with two complex dampeners. 11. A medium frame with three complex dampeners. Does it sound like I would be "good" at EWAR to you? How about : Gal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp = Scout Hunter (Works better than Cal Scout) A Cal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp And so on... Hell i have PE and RA in my assault suits... No need to change anything... If Medium suits want to play EWAR they simply need to come out of their safe shells of Stacked Shield extender and Amor plates.... You want a 800 EHP Logi or commando to find a 200 EHP 185k Scout Suit with ease?! Use proper modules, it's already there ....

Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2254	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:50:00 - [11] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: The only thing I think people forget about is that dampeners only can help the user and can actually be negated by teammates running too close without such dampening. Precision enhancers can help everyone in your squad. In theory, it may only take 1 person with enough precision to foil multiple dampened players. I think for this reason there should be a slight advantage to the dampeners. Otherwise, I like these ideas. Took the words right out of my mouth... Or hands? Anyways, yeah. I agree. I liked every idea along with what Toby said. I get spotted when some idiot decides to run with me without dampners. And dampning is only for staying under the Caldari's radar at the moment, while the Caldari's radar is suited for just about everything else. Dampning SHOULD be slightly stronger at the moment, in my opinion.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 502	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:51:00 - [12] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: incorrect title. EWAR is much more than just scanning. Also, you left out active scanners. Also, mediums would been good at EWAR, nor would they (because they're too slow and is easily detectable), nor were they meant to be. It was my intention to leave them out as it is a factor that I would not change. Also, my proposal doesn't make mediums "good" at EWAR, it simply allows them to engage in EWAR in a substantive way against scouts who choose ample HP over radar stealth or exceptional radar detection. Had you examined my graphic you would see that even a medium with four dampeners or enhancers--an absurd and totally impractical amount of modules--is still worse at EWAR than: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. A Caldari scout with four complex precision enhancers. 3. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 4. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Caldari scout with three complex precision enhancers. 6. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 7. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 8. A Minmatar scout with three complex precision enhancers. I repeat, all eight of those possibilities would defeat a logi with either 4 complex dampeners (the Amarr logi isn't even capable of that) or 4 complex enhancers (only the Caldari and Minmatar logis have this capability) and the sacrifice to do so would be so crippling that it would almost never be worth it. What my proposal does change, however, is that it allows mediums to no longer get radar ganked by scouts who barely dampen their suit. As a logi with level 5 skills in precision enhancement and suits equiped with three complex precision enhancers, I shouldn't be getting snuck up on by scouts with only 1 complex dampener or less. Even I, a lowly medium frame, should have the option to enjoy radar supremacy over scouts who think they can have their cake and EWAR too (HP and stealth). Under my system, both scouts and mediums get to play the EWAR game, but everyone has to sacrifice something to do it. However, it is still overwhelming slanted in favor of scouts and scouts have to give up far less than mediums do to establish radar superiority. For instance, under my proposal, my own setup would be defeated in EWAR by: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 3. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 4. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 6. A medium frame with four complex dampeners. 7. A Gallante scout with two complex dampeners. 8. A Caldari scout with two complex dampeners. 9. An Amarr scout with two complex dampeners. 10. A Minmatar scout with two complex dampeners. 11. A medium frame with three complex dampeners. Does it sound like I would be "good" at EWAR to you? How about : Gal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp = Scout Hunter (Works better than Cal Scout) A Cal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp And so on... Hell i have PE and RA in my assault suits... No need to change anything... If Medium suits want to play EWAR they simply need to come out of their safe shells of Stacked Shield extender and Amor plates.... You want a 800 EHP Logi or commando to find a 200 EHP 185k Scout Suit with ease?! Use proper modules, it's already there .... The range amp doesn't need to change and it doesn't play a role in the balance between dampeners and enhancers anyway. Besides, I don't want greater range for hunting scouts, I just don't want to be hunted by scouts who I have a 3 to 1 module advantage over. Seems quite fair to me. Moreover, my range with full range skills is still only 22.5m. That isn't a large gap for any scout to close. All I ask is that I see you within that 22.5m range if my lead on ehancers is two modules better than you with dampeners. Consider that and then tell why that's unreasonable.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 411	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:55:00 - [13] - Quote Space Marine One wrote: what we need is -Motion sensor( detect close movement) and -acoustic locator module(detect weapon fire) i.e MAG that will solve a lot problem and make sense in dust universe +1 yes, and silencers and other Acoustic eWar mods... Concussion grenades? There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1453	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:00:00 - [14] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: NAV HIV wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: incorrect title. EWAR is much more than just scanning. Also, you left out active scanners. Also, mediums would been good at EWAR, nor would they (because they're too slow and is easily detectable), nor were they meant to be. It was my intention to leave them out as it is a factor that I would not change. Also, my proposal doesn't make mediums "good" at EWAR, it simply allows them to engage in EWAR in a substantive way against scouts who choose ample HP over radar stealth or exceptional radar detection. Had you examined my graphic you would see that even a medium with four dampeners or enhancers--an absurd and totally impractical amount of modules--is still worse at EWAR than: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. A Caldari scout with four complex precision enhancers. 3. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 4. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Caldari scout with three complex precision enhancers. 6. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 7. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 8. A Minmatar scout with three complex precision enhancers. I repeat, all eight of those possibilities would defeat a logi with either 4 complex dampeners (the Amarr logi isn't even capable of that) or 4 complex enhancers (only the Caldari and Minmatar logis have this capability) and the sacrifice to do so would be so crippling that it would almost never be worth it. What my proposal does change, however, is that it allows mediums to no longer get radar ganked by scouts who barely dampen their suit. As a logi with level 5 skills in precision enhancement and suits equiped with three complex precision enhancers, I shouldn't be getting snuck up on by scouts with only 1 complex dampener or less. Even I, a lowly medium frame, should have the option to enjoy radar supremacy over scouts who think they can have their cake and EWAR too (HP and stealth). Under my system, both scouts and mediums get to play the EWAR game, but everyone has to sacrifice something to do it. However, it is still overwhelming slanted in favor of scouts and scouts have to give up far less than mediums do to establish radar superiority. For instance, under my proposal, my own setup would be defeated in EWAR by: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 3. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 4. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 6. A medium frame with four complex dampeners. 7. A Gallante scout with two complex dampeners. 8. A Caldari scout with two complex dampeners. 9. An Amarr scout with two complex dampeners. 10. A Minmatar scout with two complex dampeners. 11. A medium frame with three complex dampeners. Does it sound like I would be "good" at EWAR to you? How about : Gal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp = Scout Hunter (Works better than Cal Scout) A Cal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp And so on... Hell i have PE and RA in my assault suits... No need to change anything... If Medium suits want to play EWAR they simply need to come out of their safe shells of Stacked Shield extender and Amor plates.... You want a 800 EHP Logi or commando to find a 200 EHP 185k Scout Suit with ease?! Use proper modules, it's already there .... The range amp doesn't need to change and it doesn't play a role in the balance between dampeners and enhancers anyway. Besides, I don't want greater range for hunting scouts, I just don't want to be hunted by scouts who I have a 3 to 1 module advantage over. Seems quite fair to me. Moreover, my range with full range skills is still only 22.5m. That isn't a large gap for any scout to close. All I ask is that I see you within that 22.5m range if my lead on ehancers is two modules better than you with dampeners. Consider that and then tell why that's unreasonable. You need to sacrifice atleast one low slot to equip a Range amp... I'm a cal scout with 4 PE and 1 Range amp... Wanna know my total EHP ?! 220... So it's my job to find the scouts... If i'm sacrificing all my HP for that... It's not much to ask for Logi suits to Sacrifice 2 highs and 1 Low slot (If they really want to play Ewar) i'm using all 4 highs and 2 lows for it... So if you want to fight that, use your slots properly... Logis have more slots than Scouts.. So it shouldn't be a problem
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1453	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:01:00 - [15] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: The only thing I think people forget about is that dampeners only can help the user and can actually be negated by teammates running too close without such dampening. Precision enhancers can help everyone in your squad. In theory, it may only take 1 person with enough precision to foil multiple dampened players. I think for this reason there should be a slight advantage to the dampeners. Otherwise, I like these ideas. Took the words right out of my mouth... Or hands? Anyways, yeah. I agree. I liked every idea along with what Toby said. I get spotted when some idiot decides to run with me without dampners. And dampning is only for staying under the Caldari's radar at the moment, while the Caldari's radar is suited for just about everything else. Dampning SHOULD be slightly stronger at the moment, in my opinion. I have been scanned when i was cloaked in my Cal Scout... By a Gal Logi... I only have 2 low slots, so i can't really hide from them...
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 502	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:05:00 - [16] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: SirManBoy wrote: NAV HIV wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: incorrect title. EWAR is much more than just scanning. Also, you left out active scanners. Also, mediums would been good at EWAR, nor would they (because they're too slow and is easily detectable), nor were they meant to be. It was my intention to leave them out as it is a factor that I would not change. Also, my proposal doesn't make mediums "good" at EWAR, it simply allows them to engage in EWAR in a substantive way against scouts who choose ample HP over radar stealth or exceptional radar detection. Had you examined my graphic you would see that even a medium with four dampeners or enhancers--an absurd and totally impractical amount of modules--is still worse at EWAR than: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. A Caldari scout with four complex precision enhancers. 3. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 4. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Caldari scout with three complex precision enhancers. 6. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 7. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 8. A Minmatar scout with three complex precision enhancers. I repeat, all eight of those possibilities would defeat a logi with either 4 complex dampeners (the Amarr logi isn't even capable of that) or 4 complex enhancers (only the Caldari and Minmatar logis have this capability) and the sacrifice to do so would be so crippling that it would almost never be worth it. What my proposal does change, however, is that it allows mediums to no longer get radar ganked by scouts who barely dampen their suit. As a logi with level 5 skills in precision enhancement and suits equiped with three complex precision enhancers, I shouldn't be getting snuck up on by scouts with only 1 complex dampener or less. Even I, a lowly medium frame, should have the option to enjoy radar supremacy over scouts who think they can have their cake and EWAR too (HP and stealth). Under my system, both scouts and mediums get to play the EWAR game, but everyone has to sacrifice something to do it. However, it is still overwhelming slanted in favor of scouts and scouts have to give up far less than mediums do to establish radar superiority. For instance, under my proposal, my own setup would be defeated in EWAR by: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 3. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 4. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 6. A medium frame with four complex dampeners. 7. A Gallante scout with two complex dampeners. 8. A Caldari scout with two complex dampeners. 9. An Amarr scout with two complex dampeners. 10. A Minmatar scout with two complex dampeners. 11. A medium frame with three complex dampeners. Does it sound like I would be "good" at EWAR to you? How about : Gal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp = Scout Hunter (Works better than Cal Scout) A Cal Logi with 3 Complex PE + 2 Range Amp And so on... Hell i have PE and RA in my assault suits... No need to change anything... If Medium suits want to play EWAR they simply need to come out of their safe shells of Stacked Shield extender and Amor plates.... You want a 800 EHP Logi or commando to find a 200 EHP 185k Scout Suit with ease?! Use proper modules, it's already there .... The range amp doesn't need to change and it doesn't play a role in the balance between dampeners and enhancers anyway. Besides, I don't want greater range for hunting scouts, I just don't want to be hunted by scouts who I have a 3 to 1 module advantage over. Seems quite fair to me. Moreover, my range with full range skills is still only 22.5m. That isn't a large gap for any scout to close. All I ask is that I see you within that 22.5m range if my lead on ehancers is two modules better than you with dampeners. Consider that and then tell why that's unreasonable. You need to sacrifice atleast one low slot to equip a Range amp... I'm a cal scout with 4 PE and 1 Range amp... Wanna know my total EHP ?! 220... So it's my job to find the scouts... If i'm sacrificing all my HP for that... It's not much to ask for Logi suits to Sacrifice 2 highs and 1 Low slot (If they really want to play Ewar) i'm using all 4 highs and 2 lows for it... So if you want to fight that, use your slots properly... Logis have more slots than Scouts.. So it shouldn't be a problem No, I want to fight for radar supremacy in the 22.5m bubble that is my native range. If I wanted more range, I would equip mods for more range. As a scout, you will always have the range advantage so it makes no sense for me to equip mods that won't change that. I am interested in survival and being able to defend myself from being shotgun ganked from behind. I have no interest in purposely rooting out scouts by means of extending my range. My interest in protecting myself has no baring on your desire to out EWAR other scouts with the many precison enhancers you have equiped to do so. I applaud your setup as it is exactly what is required to find most dampened players. However, if you're not running at least 2 complex dampeners yourself, I don't think you should be able to have any stealth in my range bubble (22.5m) when my logi suit is rocking three complex precision enhancers. If you have two or more, then you should have the right to ruin my day with as many sneaky, radar-silent shotgun attacks as your heart desires. Range amplification doesn't have a place in this discussion. It is working fine and it should continue to extend the range of your dampening and precision numbers accordingly.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1172	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:11:00 - [17] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: The only thing I think people forget about is that dampeners only can help the user and can actually be negated by teammates running too close without such dampening. Precision enhancers can help everyone in your squad. In theory, it may only take 1 person with enough precision to foil multiple dampened players. I think for this reason there should be a slight advantage to the dampeners. Otherwise, I like these ideas. Not tommention if you want a reasonable attack force to be unscanned, they all need damps. 1 cal scout with more PE's than tey have damps ruins their entire reason for puttng damps. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1460	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:16:00 - [18] - Quote With two PE you should be able to Pick me up at you said 22.5 m buble. I only have 2 low slots. One of them i need to fit RA and other for either armor rep/ kinkats or dampener. So you should be able to pick up most if not 90% of the scouts if you fit 2-3 PE without RA within your 22.5 m bubble ... Most scouts i've seen don't equip more than 2 Profile dampener... But if you chose to add a RA with your 2-3 PE you can see them coming from 22.5 + 45m :)
Toby Flenderson research lab 504	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:37:00 - [19] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: incorrect title. EWAR is much more than just scanning. Also, you left out active scanners. Also, mediums would been good at EWAR, nor would they (because they're too slow and is easily detectable), nor were they meant to be. It was my intention to leave them out as it is a factor that I would not change. Also, my proposal doesn't make mediums "good" at EWAR, it simply allows them to engage in EWAR in a substantive way against scouts who choose ample HP over radar stealth or exceptional radar detection. Had you examined my graphic you would see that even a medium with four dampeners or enhancers--an absurd and totally impractical amount of modules--is still worse at EWAR than: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. A Caldari scout with four complex precision enhancers. 3. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 4. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Caldari scout with three complex precision enhancers. 6. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 7. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 8. A Minmatar scout with three complex precision enhancers. I repeat, all eight of those possibilities would defeat a logi with either 4 complex dampeners (the Amarr logi isn't even capable of that) or 4 complex enhancers (only the Caldari and Minmatar logis have this capability) and the sacrifice to do so would be so crippling that it would almost never be worth it. What my proposal does change, however, is that it allows mediums to no longer get radar ganked by scouts who barely dampen their suit. As a logi with level 5 skills in precision enhancement and suits equiped with three complex precision enhancers, I shouldn't be getting snuck up on by scouts with only 1 complex dampener or less. Even I, a lowly medium frame, should have the option to enjoy radar supremacy over scouts who think they can have their cake and EWAR too (HP and stealth). Under my system, both scouts and mediums get to play the EWAR game, but everyone has to sacrifice something to do it. However, it is still overwhelming slanted in favor of scouts and scouts have to give up far less than mediums do to establish radar superiority. For instance, under my proposal, my own setup would be defeated in EWAR by: 1. A Gallante scout with four complex dampeners. 2. An Amarr scout with four complex dampeners. 3. A Gallante scout with three complex dampeners. 4. An Amarr scout with three complex dampeners. 5. A Minmatar scout with three complex dampeners. 6. A medium frame with four complex dampeners. 7. A Gallante scout with two complex dampeners. 8. A Caldari scout with two complex dampeners. 9. An Amarr scout with two complex dampeners. 10. A Minmatar scout with two complex dampeners. 11. A medium frame with three complex dampeners. Does it sound like I would be "good" at EWAR to you? The 8 scout fitting above are nearly as impractical as the set up you claim they beat. I understand the poin you're making but I don't even run proto scouts so I only 4/5 slots for scanning modules. This is usually enough to sneak around or spot other scouts depending on which suit I choose (min/gal/cal). I couldn't imagine regularly runninga cal scout with. 4 complex enhancers or a gal scout with 4 dampeners. It's not worth it really since people don't regularly run the opposing fitting that would warrant the overkill. One thing I will say though is that I think using a scout suit should be worth more than just one complex mod when compared to a medium suit. I just started going into gallente assault and I fill the high slots wit 2 complex precision enhancers. I do well enough with 2 on an assault suit. Once I get three I couldn't imagine how if air it would be for me to be able to see any scout not running 2 dampeners. My sacrifice for the 3 precision enhancers is small compared to the 2 low powered slots wasted on the scout suit. I think that keeping the "gap between" scout suits and mediums in terms of scanning should be 2 modules at least.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2267	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:48:00 - [20] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Joel II X wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: The only thing I think people forget about is that dampeners only can help the user and can actually be negated by teammates running too close without such dampening. Precision enhancers can help everyone in your squad. In theory, it may only take 1 person with enough precision to foil multiple dampened players. I think for this reason there should be a slight advantage to the dampeners. Otherwise, I like these ideas. Took the words right out of my mouth... Or hands? Anyways, yeah. I agree. I liked every idea along with what Toby said. I get spotted when some idiot decides to run with me without dampners. And dampning is only for staying under the Caldari's radar at the moment, while the Caldari's radar is suited for just about everything else. Dampning SHOULD be slightly stronger at the moment, in my opinion. I have been scanned when i was cloaked in my Cal Scout... By a Gal Logi... I only have 2 low slots, so i can't really hide from them... You're not supposed to, technically. You can evade advanced scanners automatically and with a few dampners/cloak, you can get below proto scanners. If you don't feel like sacrificing lows, that's up to you. You can always go Gallente Scout for dampning, if you'd like. It's not like scanners can be improved with modules. The Gallente Logistics bonus is enhanced scanner range and visibility time, not precision enhancing. You'll be able to get below them with ease.

NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1472	Posted - 2014.04.15 16:25:00 - [21] - Quote Joel II X wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Joel II X wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: The only thing I think people forget about is that dampeners only can help the user and can actually be negated by teammates running too close without such dampening. Precision enhancers can help everyone in your squad. In theory, it may only take 1 person with enough precision to foil multiple dampened players. I think for this reason there should be a slight advantage to the dampeners. Otherwise, I like these ideas. Took the words right out of my mouth... Or hands? Anyways, yeah. I agree. I liked every idea along with what Toby said. I get spotted when some idiot decides to run with me without dampners. And dampning is only for staying under the Caldari's radar at the moment, while the Caldari's radar is suited for just about everything else. Dampning SHOULD be slightly stronger at the moment, in my opinion. I have been scanned when i was cloaked in my Cal Scout... By a Gal Logi... I only have 2 low slots, so i can't really hide from them... You're not supposed to, technically. You can evade advanced scanners automatically and with a few dampners/cloak, you can get below proto scanners. If you don't feel like sacrificing lows, that's up to you. You can always go Gallente Scout for dampning, if you'd like. It's not like scanners can be improved with modules. The Gallente Logistics bonus is enhanced scanner range and visibility time, not precision enhancing. You'll be able to get below them with ease. My points exactly... I wasn't complaining about scanners... i was just stating the fact that i've been scanned by a proper scanner by a gal Logi.... So all the people complaining about Cloaks and Scouts, should try to use their suits first before complaining... I said GG to the guy and had a good conversation later about fittings...
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 502	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:18:00 - [22] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: With two PE you should be able to Pick me up at you said 22.5 m buble. I only have 2 low slots. One of them i need to fit RA and other for either armor rep/ kinkats or dampener. So you should be able to pick up most if not 90% of the scouts if you fit 2-3 PE without RA within your 22.5 m bubble ... Most scouts i've seen don't equip more than 2 Profile dampener... But if you chose to add a RA with your 2-3 PE you can see them coming from 22.5 + 45m :) Take a look at the stats on this suit: Gallente Logi Even with my precison enhancer skill maxed out and three complex precision enhancers equiped I am still only able to get my scan precision down to 23.71db. That said, here are some common fits that completely avoid my passive scans: Gallente scouts (basic and up)--level 5 scan profile skill, no profile dampener mods = 23.63db Amarr, Caldari, and Minmatar scouts (basic and up)--level 5 scan profile skill, 1 complex profile dampener = 23.63db This doesn't even include the the scan profile bonus that cloaking provides, which should absolutely not exist. So one entire race of scouts is invisible to me without needing to equip a dampener at all and the rest fly under my radar by simply equiping one complex dampener. You're telling me that I should be picking up 90% of the scouts on the field with my three complex precision enhancers but the numbers seem to suggest quite the opposite.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1472	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:27:00 - [23] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: NAV HIV wrote: With two PE you should be able to Pick me up at you said 22.5 m buble. I only have 2 low slots. One of them i need to fit RA and other for either armor rep/ kinkats or dampener. So you should be able to pick up most if not 90% of the scouts if you fit 2-3 PE without RA within your 22.5 m bubble ... Most scouts i've seen don't equip more than 2 Profile dampener... But if you chose to add a RA with your 2-3 PE you can see them coming from 22.5 + 45m :) Take a look at the stats on this suit: Gallente Logi Even with my precison enhancer skill maxed out and three complex precision enhancers equiped I am still only able to get my scan precision down to 23.71db. That said, here are some common fits that completely avoid my passive scans: Gallente scouts (basic and up)--level 5 scan profile skill, no profile dampener mods = 23.63db Amarr, Caldari, and Minmatar scouts (basic and up)--level 5 scan profile skill, 1 complex profile dampener = 23.63db This doesn't even include the the scan profile bonus that cloaking provides, which should absolutely not exist. So one entire race of scouts is invisible to me without needing to equip a dampener at all and the rest fly under my radar by simply equiping one complex dampener. You're telling me that I should be picking up 90% of the scouts on the field with my three complex precision enhancers but the numbers seem to suggest quite the opposite. Are missing to add the Active scanner that you are supposed to add to your gal Logi ?! With 3 PE and your Scanner you should be able to see a lot and the numbers would change dramatically
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1472	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:29:00 - [24] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: SirManBoy wrote: NAV HIV wrote: With two PE you should be able to Pick me up at you said 22.5 m buble. I only have 2 low slots. One of them i need to fit RA and other for either armor rep/ kinkats or dampener. So you should be able to pick up most if not 90% of the scouts if you fit 2-3 PE without RA within your 22.5 m bubble ... Most scouts i've seen don't equip more than 2 Profile dampener... But if you chose to add a RA with your 2-3 PE you can see them coming from 22.5 + 45m :) Take a look at the stats on this suit: Gallente Logi Even with my precison enhancer skill maxed out and three complex precision enhancers equiped I am still only able to get my scan precision down to 23.71db. That said, here are some common fits that completely avoid my passive scans: Gallente scouts (basic and up)--level 5 scan profile skill, no profile dampener mods = 23.63db Amarr, Caldari, and Minmatar scouts (basic and up)--level 5 scan profile skill, 1 complex profile dampener = 23.63db This doesn't even include the the scan profile bonus that cloaking provides, which should absolutely not exist. So one entire race of scouts is invisible to me without needing to equip a dampener at all and the rest fly under my radar by simply equiping one complex dampener. You're telling me that I should be picking up 90% of the scouts on the field with my three complex precision enhancers but the numbers seem to suggest quite the opposite. Are missing to add the Active scanner that you are supposed to add to your gal Logi ?! With 3 PE and your Scanner you should be able to see a lot and the numbers would change dramatically You have to use your scanner with your gal logi to see it properly... Not passively... No one would use a cal scout then... Also not arguing, add a Range amplifier and you'll see the difference.
Disturbingly Bored Forum Warfare 2231	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:39:00 - [25] - Quote I have modest proposal for balancing all aspects of DUST: Baby barbecue. Literal baby back ribs. It's the solution to all our problems. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 502	Posted - 2014.04.15 22:27:00 - [26] - Quote IMPROVED GRAPH--EWAR PROPOSAL.
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4777	Posted - 2014.04.15 23:05:00 - [27] - Quote I took english lit class. I've read "a modest proposal"; I haven't even read the thread yet and I know what to expect. Edit: I are disappoint. I'm from the weird side of the internet
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 878	Posted - 2014.04.15 23:25:00 - [28] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: SirManBoy wrote: EWAR made simple, fair, and logical. SirManBoy's Dust 514 EWAR Proposal Modules should win the EWAR and the medium frames should have a place in the discussion. However, it should be slanted in the favor of scounts in a significant way. Please review my graphic and comment. A few key elements: No more dampening bonuses for cloaks--only mods matter. A one module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow one scout to have a clear advantage over another. A two module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow a medium to have an advantage over a scout. All other things equal, a Gallante scout is invisible to a Caldari scout. <--Dampening bonus > Precision Enhancement bonus All other things equal, a Caldari scout can detect Amarr and Minmatar scouts. <--Precision Enhancement bonus > no bonus Thanks, SirManBoy I would want about 10 mil SP in return... Thank you... Can't fight a scout with 200 HP ?! Use a Scanner with Proper Modules: Gal Logi + Modules + Scanner > Most scouts (Except for a gal scout with 4 profile dampeners, but a gal scout with 4 PD deserves it) Cal Scout with all Ewar modules : 185k and can help a sqaud against any scout and team (Cost is too high, but it's all about the team work) So stop whining and start using proper modules with proper suits... CCP already made these available... I have yet to see a gal scout with 4 dampeners... Well the Gal Logi can only scan 15 at the absolute best. A Gal scout only needs 2 dampeners to get below that. Any scout gets below 15 with 2 damps and a cloak. Not sure where your math fell apart but profile on scouts starts at 35. Dampeners also suffer stacking penalties.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 310	Posted - 2014.04.16 01:37:00 - [29] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: EWAR made simple, fair, and logical. SirManBoy's Dust 514 EWAR Proposal Modules should win the EWAR and the medium frames should have a place in the discussion. However, it should be slanted in the favor of scounts in a significant way. Please review my graphic and comment. A few key elements: No more dampening bonuses for cloaks--only mods matter. A one module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow one scout to have a clear advantage over another. A two module advantage in terms of dampeners and enhancers should allow a medium to have an advantage over a scout. All other things equal, a Gallante scout is invisible to a Caldari scout. <--Dampening bonus > Precision Enhancement bonus All other things equal, a Caldari scout can detect Amarr and Minmatar scouts. <--Precision Enhancement bonus > no bonus Thanks, SirManBoy +1 x 1mil sir I agree! Of course ccp telling us exactly how scanning works would help with exact numbers, but this is spot one.


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