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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2801
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Posted - 2014.04.09 07:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't understand why this wasn't the real TTK fix on rifles but apparently was for scrambler pistols.
The biggest gripe about rifles was that they are all long range weapons (yes, even the plasma rifle has an optimum of over 50m) but perform just as well at close range (<20m) engagements. This was always because of their ridiculously high ROF.
By only reducing damage on them they remain just as good at close range as they are at long range - everything about them has been equally nerfed. By reducing ROF instead, it has far greater an impact on close range combat than long range combat.
Implementing this idea would effectively buff the rifles at their intended ranges and nerf them in their unintended close range prowess.
Edit - it would also make them all more like actual rifles and less like LMGs (for the fully automatic variants anyway)
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Beeeees
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
524
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Posted - 2014.04.09 08:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
The scrambler ROF was nerfed to make room for Ion pistol to be viable.
No its not really viable but you get my point.
TOLD514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
8190
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Posted - 2014.04.09 08:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
They're supposed to work in CQC, except for arguably the RR.
Just that they're supposed to have varying degrees of success in CQC.
AR > CR > SCR > RR
As for the scrambler pistol, Ion Pistol is supposed to be the high ROF, medium damage and low range counterpart.
Scrambler Pistol already had extremely fast ROF, and considering they're both semi auto pistols, that would leave no room for the Ion Pistol.
My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone.
If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2801
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Posted - 2014.04.09 08:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:They're supposed to work in CQC, except for arguably the RR.
Just that they're supposed to have varying degrees of success in CQC.
AR > CR > SCR > RR
As for the scrambler pistol, Ion Pistol is supposed to be the high ROF, medium damage and low range counterpart.
Scrambler Pistol already had extremely fast ROF, and considering they're both semi auto pistols, that would leave no room for the Ion Pistol.
No problem with them being able to 'work' in CQC but they are just as good extreme CQ as long range and that is not how they should be, any of them.
Edit - and yeah, I'm not complaining about the scrambler pistol (I use the breach anyway!) but it's just an example of a sensible way to reduce DPS.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Joel II X
Dah Gods O Bacon
2218
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't really mind the changes done to the current weapons. They compliment the new sidearms.
As for the ScP, people who complain about the RoF obviously doesn't have more than 1 point on operations skill. The assault Scrambler Pistol is easily still good and extremely viable. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2805
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 11:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:I don't really mind the changes done to the current weapons. They compliment the new sidearms.
They're still no worse CQ than they are at optimal range - this is the problem.
Or to put it another way - they're just as bad at range as they are CQ.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
2435
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
And how much of a ROF nerf do you propose? To much and the rifle cannot kill since people will just strafe away and be immortal, to little and your point becomes invalid.
How do you nerf weapons meant for CQC like the AR and the ACR?
Wouldn't nerfing the ROF of the AR to make it less CQC mean that increasing its range is justifiable?
How much range would be required before you realize that the AR got turned into a rail gun?
This still doesn't fix a problem within the rifle line, long range rifles are just as good and better than short range weapons, nerfing the ROF only shifts this problem to another window it doesn't eliminate it.
The best way to fix Rifles being to good at CQC is increasing hip fire dispersion and reducing DPS as a penalty for long range.
Obviously a side arm shouldn't excel past a light weapon, it should complement the weapon. And they do, apart from the ion pistol. If you were to eliminate light weapons and look at the side arms and how balanced they are against each other, you would see that they are very imbalanced within themselves.
For example the Scrambler pistol still remains the best side arm, with the best damage output and it has the second longest range, while the ion pistol has the worst damage output and the worst range. This right here is imbalanced, before side arms can be balanced against rifles they need to be balanced against themselves. This would mean that the Scrambler pistol would need to further be nerfed so it can come into place with shorter range weapons that should have higher DPS.
Remember that
Long range = low DPS
Short range = high DPS
For the Federation!
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2805
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Obviously the ROF nerfs would be different for each rifle, as the damage nerfs were. Shorter range rifles like the plasma rifle would get the least ROF nerf.
I also don't rule out combining ROF and damage nerfs but I think the longer range rifles need the ROF nerfs more than damage nerfs.
Range doesn't need changing on any of the rifles; that is fine.
Nerfing ROF makes using rifles in CQ very much more difficult because it's easier to strafe out of low ROF at close range but long range you can't strafe fast enough unless the shooter is really bad. This would also allow the longer range weapons to retain their high damage numbers, so if you get the hits, it still counts big-time.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
|
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2805
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 11:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
Long range = low DPS
Short range = high DPS
I disagree with this. It should be:
Long Range = low ROF high DMG
Short Range = high ROF low DMG
DPS should be pretty equitable.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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LudiKure ninda
DROID EXILES
General Tso's Alliance
82
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
NO!
Solo player..
SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED!
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
2437
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
Long range = low DPS
Short range = high DPS
I disagree with this. It should be: Long Range = low ROF high DMG Short Range = high ROF low DMG DPS should be pretty equitable.
Thats the same thing, just a tiny bit more defined. Low ROF x High damage = Low DPS but High Alpha, making the DPS equal just makes long range weapons better, they DPS should be lower, not by a lot but still lower. When you make the DPS equal you create weapons like the Rail rifle versus the Assault rifle.
For the Federation!
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2807
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Django Quik wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
Long range = low DPS
Short range = high DPS
I disagree with this. It should be: Long Range = low ROF high DMG Short Range = high ROF low DMG DPS should be pretty equitable. Thats the same thing, just a tiny bit more defined. Low ROF x High damage = Low DPS but High Alpha, making the DPS equal just makes long range weapons better, they DPS should be lower, not by a lot but still lower. When you make the DPS equal you create weapons like the Rail rifle versus the Assault rifle.
Agreed - though the little refinement is quite important there.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2807
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thanks for your contribution - have any reasoning to back up your argument or do you only speak in monosyllabic statements?
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Scheneighnay McBob
Nova Corps Marines
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4712
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
No; this puts the aim-assist scrubs at even more of an advantage.
I'm from the weird side of the internet
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thesupertman
Better Hide R Die
278
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
No
The new commandos should have a better paint job. Look at the Amarr one!
1.8 is fun. Cant wait for the new build!
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NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
1391
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I don't understand why this wasn't the real TTK fix on rifles but apparently was for scrambler pistols. (not a complaint against the ScP nerf btw - I'm a breach ScP user anyway!)
The biggest gripe about rifles was that they are all long range weapons (yes, even the plasma rifle has an optimum of over 50m) but perform just as well at close range (<20m) engagements. This was always because of their ridiculously high ROF.
By only reducing damage on them they remain just as good at close range as they are at long range - everything about them has been equally nerfed. By reducing ROF instead, it has far greater an impact on close range combat than long range combat.
Implementing this idea would effectively buff the rifles at their intended ranges and nerf them in their unintended close range prowess.
Edit - it would also make them all more like actual rifles and less like LMGs (for the fully automatic variants anyway)
Just give the Assault rifle a Scope... I'd be using that gun all day... |
Vespasian Andendare
Subsonic Synthesis
RISE of LEGION
834
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Posted - 2014.04.09 15:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
SCP needs to keep its high damage because that is the racial hallmark of Amarr tactical style weapons. HIgh alpha strikes (which, arguably could be for Minmatar artillery, but that's another thread). Additionally, the SCP has its high headshot modifier that works best with high damage, not ROF.
The rifle dps nerf was done just fine with lower damage (vs ROF), because an ROF nerf would have "buffed" spray and pray shooting, since you'd only need a few, albeit higher damage, shots to connect. With a damage nerf, better aiming is rewarded since you need more of your shots to connect to have the same result.
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MythTanker
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:They're supposed to work in CQC, except for arguably the RR.
Just that they're supposed to have varying degrees of success in CQC.
AR > CR > SCR > RR
As for the scrambler pistol, Ion Pistol is supposed to be the high ROF, medium damage and low range counterpart.
Scrambler Pistol already had extremely fast ROF, and considering they're both semi auto pistols, that would leave no room for the Ion Pistol.
Untill my HMG comes in and ruins your fun.
Heavies are OP? Say that to the buisness end of my HMG you peasent.
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1pawn dust
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
132
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Take a while but you get used to the changes
unless ofcourse you are using a CR that didnt really change or a HMG that seemly got buffed to ****  HIDE THE KIDS THE WINMATAR HAZ GOTTEN LOOOZE! |
Joey-Number1
Maniacal Miners INC
No Safe Haven
86
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
No their range is just fine, tbh what they need is higher damage on a really close range.
Minmatar Logistics since the beginning.
Mass Driver my first and the only fully specialized weapon.
Explorer.
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2813
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:No; this puts the aim-assist scrubs at even more of an advantage.
Please explain how this would have any effect on aim-assist or vice-versa because I don't really follow.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
|
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2813
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote:SCP needs to keep its high damage because that is the racial hallmark of Amarr tactical style weapons. HIgh alpha strikes (which, arguably could be for Minmatar artillery, but that's another thread). Additionally, the SCP has its high headshot modifier that works best with high damage, not ROF.
Do I really need to make it absolutely clear that this thread is NOT about the scrambler pistol?
Vespasian Andendare wrote:The rifle dps nerf was done just fine with lower damage (vs ROF), because an ROF nerf would have "buffed" spray and pray shooting, since you'd only need a few, albeit higher damage, shots to connect. With a damage nerf, better aiming is rewarded since you need more of your shots to connect to have the same result.
Higher ROF rewards spray and pray more because missing a lot of shots does not significantly lower your damage. Spraying and praying with a high damage low ROF weapon would result in important damage being lost. Why do you think assault weapons are used far more than breach variants for example?
Better aiming is rewarded more by high damage low ROF weapons.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Nirwanda Vaughns
426th Infantry
524
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
probs with the rifles is that they're clearly broken when peopel say Long range - low DPS Short range - high DPS. its glaringly obvious that, that isn't the case. a KK RR can spank you at 150m with the same damage as a duvolle at 40m as well as being higher damage upclose. things like ScR and RR need their hip fire changed to something liek the Tac rifles hipfire, seeing as thats thier racial variant of it and the Assault versions should be shorter ranges, lower dps and tighter hip fire. as it stands pretty much everything atm is better CQC than the AR's and out DPS them. its also annoying that to have my duvolle hit out to 50m i need to plonk 932,000sp into sharpshooter whereas things liek RR and ScR just get it off the bat.
AR's need a far bigger balancing job than simply rof/damage changes as they stand
Rolling with the punches
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2813
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Posted - 2014.04.09 16:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
Joey-Number1 wrote:No their range is just fine, tbh what they need is higher damage on a really close range.
This isn't about range - it's about ROF.
They're already too powerful in close range, that's why a ROF nerf is needed to stop them being so useful at CQC without hurting their damage at their intended range.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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