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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3293
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Posted - 2014.04.07 20:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
First, let me start out by saying that I believe team/squad play has eroded since we left beta. I think that payouts have created a risk averse playerbase and it shows in a major of pub matches.
Now to the point. Let's imagine PC 2.0 is right around the corner and it is the greatest conquest gamemode in the history of gaming. What do we do about the players? How do we get people out of NPC corps and into corps? How do we get those players into squads?
Even if all of the players in Dust are in a corp and they NEVER run solo, how do these players and corps develop the tactics and strategies needed for PC without some form of team deploy?
To wrap it up:
1) Do you believe further incentives are needed to liven up pub matches?
2) Do you believe that some form of team deploy is needed to provide a low risk method of preparing for PC?
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
1868
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Posted - 2014.04.07 20:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
The biggest issue with team deploy being introduced to existing game types (public contracts and faction warfare) is that they almost ensure an unbalanced game, unless another full team deploy is available as well. I believe this can be made to work well in factional warfare by matching against other team deploys, but I would suggest that team deploy in public contracts would be a bad idea.
In actuality, I feel a game mode like Ambush, which has no need for objective-based coordination, and sucks as a game mode presently, would actually benefit from the removal of squads. Players aren't going to stick around long enough to join squads and corps if they have a bad experience coming into the game and playing solo. CCP needs to cater to customers from solo players all the way up to full team deployment.
I could definitely see benefits to offering increased payout for using more expensive equipment and suits, as it would feed into the more risk equals more reward design. But for that to work, matchmaking needs to do a better job of pitting those higher risk/higher reward players against each other, rather than against the casual newbie.
EVE Online has a few designs that directly help nudge newbies into corps. One is that NPC corps levy taxes, which discourages remaining in an NPC corp. An 11% base tax allows player corps to be 10% and below and be competitive financially, even just as a way for players to keep more of their money. Additionally, players in NPC corps are by default brought into a Recruitment channel. They can choose to leave it, however, it directly places corps seeking recruits in their chat box, something that will help sell them on the idea. The tutorial guides can also mention the NPC tax, and encourage players to seek out corps with lower tax rates.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1924
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Posted - 2014.04.08 00:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
First off I'm with Soraya in that NPC corps need a base tax rate of around 11%. This in itself is incentive enough to nudge new players towards Player corps which typically have 10% or less tax rate.
1) I'd like to see a system where special public missions pop up which offer players extra ISK or items which are normally difficult/impossible to obtain in normal missions (AUR gear, officer weapons, ect.). These missions could only be completed once and only last for a short period of time, but it provides constant randomized content being released constantly. The missions themselves are effectively the same as random battles, but that extra added reward WILL get people to log in for those special items they want.
Hell even tie this in with Faction warfare, special contracts where you can pick a side, each with its own unique reward. And don't forget the prospect of PvE missions and this type of special mission systems.
2) I feel that Faction Warfare serves as the mid point between Pubs and PC and it SHOULD be hardcore (though not to the extent that PC is). There are already ways to queue sync squads together which gives a pseudo Team-Deploy, but it is a pain in the ass. Now the tricky part here is that I want to offer people that middle ground between PC and Pubs but also not lock out FW to smaller groups by allowing entire corps to stomp FW with easy team deploy.
I think the best way to handle this would be to bring back the old style of Corp Battles as a secondary form of FW. Bigger LP Rewards, Team Deploy Only. It would give corps the much needed environment to practice for PC without interfering with current FW mechanics.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
1148
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Posted - 2014.04.08 10:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Old style corp contracts need to return ASAP. So corps not in PC can practice in large man squads as much as anything, plus those old corp contracts were less stress to arrange. I would however allow a filter option for the corp that sets up a contract to limit the meta level of gear used in the match. It can also be used to practice team deploy in a safe way.
I agree with Soyraya that ambush doesn't need team deploy although I think squads should stay.
As to incentives. There's too much ISK swimming around as it is so simply increasing the payouts for pub matches is a bad idea and lacking in imagination frankly. With a player based contract or even open market hopefully arriving at Fanfest or shortly after, I'd prefer a switch to a fixed ISK payment to each Merc from the NPC corps but with a higher level of salvage. However, the salvage should be based purely on what it was YOU destroyed in the battle.
So if your using Proto gear in Pub Matches, gleefully wiping out newbs in militia or standard to pad out your irrelevant KDR and inflate your ego (we all know who you are..lol), then standard salvage is all you get, with its low resale valve.
Taking down Proto in cheap suits then becomes a very profitable way to play the game. Anything that pushes the concept of being an ISK efficient and profitable Merc is to be encouraged at all times.
NPC corps should also have a tax rate of 15% to remove more ISK from the economy and encourage the joining of player corps with a lower tax.
As to the corp tax, I was one of the loudest voices for its introduction and now I want to lead the charge for corps to spend that revenue in new ways other than simply being able to give ISK to players.
I would like the ISK to able to spent on the renting of corp specific Merc Quarters, uniforms and gear. I'd like to purchase medals for outstanding Mercs or passing a basic competence level. Titles, visible to all are another why to encourage participation in the game as well.
Ideas like this already exist in the New Eden Universe already in Eve Online all that is needed in a lot of cases is a UI to do it all.
CPM1 Candidate
CEO of DUST University
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2885
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Posted - 2014.04.08 13:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:I would like the ISK to able to spent on the renting of corp specific Merc Quarters, uniforms and gear. I'd like to purchase medals for outstanding Mercs or passing a basic competence level. Titles, visible to all are another why to encourage participation in the game as well. I second that motion.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2885
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Posted - 2014.04.08 13:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Additionally, players in NPC corps are by default brought into a Recruitment channel. They can choose to leave it, however, it directly places corps seeking recruits in their chat box, something that will help sell them on the idea. We Soo need this in DUST. All we can do now is spam Local.
If we wont new players to join Corps, which will normally greatly increase player retention, we need an effective way to support recruiting efforts.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3306
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Posted - 2014.04.08 15:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Old style corp contracts need to return ASAP. So corps not in PC can practice in large man squads as much as anything, plus those old corp contracts were less stress to arrange. I would however allow a filter option for the corp that sets up a contract to limit the meta level of gear used in the match. It can also be used to practice team deploy in a safe way.
I agree with Soyraya that ambush doesn't need team deploy although I think squads should stay.
As to incentives. There's too much ISK swimming around as it is so simply increasing the payouts for pub matches is a bad idea and lacking in imagination frankly. With a player based contract or even open market hopefully arriving at Fanfest or shortly after, I'd prefer a switch to a fixed ISK payment to each Merc from the NPC corps but with a higher level of salvage. However, the salvage should be based purely on what it was YOU destroyed in the battle.
So if your using Proto gear in Pub Matches, gleefully wiping out newbs in militia or standard to pad out your irrelevant KDR and inflate your ego (we all know who you are..lol), then standard salvage is all you get, with its low resale valve.
Taking down Proto in cheap suits then becomes a very profitable way to play the game. Anything that pushes the concept of being an ISK efficient and profitable Merc is to be encouraged at all times.
NPC corps should also have a tax rate of 15% to remove more ISK from the economy and encourage the joining of player corps with a lower tax.
As to the corp tax, I was one of the loudest voices for its introduction and now I want to lead the charge for corps to spend that revenue in new ways other than simply being able to give ISK to players.
I would like the ISK to able to spent on the renting of corp specific Merc Quarters, uniforms and gear. I'd like to purchase medals for outstanding Mercs or passing a basic competence level. Titles, visible to all are another why to encourage participation in the game as well.
Ideas like this already exist in the New Eden Universe already in Eve Online all that is needed in a lot of cases is a UI to do it all. I disagree on the payouts vehemently. There is zero doubt that there is a lot of ISK floating around out there, but it's where it's concentrated that creates one of the biggest problems Dust faces. PC players and ISK hoarders do not represent the average mercenary.
The payout system is flawed if you go 20-2 in a proto suit and lose ISK.
The payout system is flawed if you go 20-5 in ADV suits and lose ISK.
The payout system is flawed if you have to run BPO/militia/standard gear to turn a decent profit. I believe the paltry payouts create a risk averse environment in pubs (matches being decided within 2-3 minutes) and I believe it adds to the grind.
At the very least I think payouts should be increased to fill the void while PVE or other alternative methods of ISK generation are developed. I don't want to be rich, I just want more of the fights that seemed to be more frequent in the past.
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2889
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Posted - 2014.04.08 15:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:I disagree on the payouts vehemently. There is zero doubt that there is a lot of ISK floating around out there, but it's where it's concentrated that creates one of the biggest problems Dust faces. PC players and ISK hoarders do not represent the average mercenary.
The payout system is flawed if you go 20-2 in a proto suit and lose ISK.
The payout system is flawed if you go 20-5 in ADV suits and lose ISK.
The payout system is flawed if you have to run BPO/militia/standard gear to turn a decent profit. I believe the paltry payouts create a risk averse environment in pubs (matches being decided within 2-3 minutes) and I believe it adds to the grind.
At the very least I think payouts should be increased to fill the void while PVE or other alternative methods of ISK generation are developed. I don't want to be rich, I just want more of the fights that seemed to be more frequent in the past. You make a good argument. I tried switching to an Advanced Sentinel suit and burned through 10 million ISK in about 3 weeks. I have had to go back to running a BPO suit. HMG Heavies just donGÇÖt make very much ISK.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3312
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Posted - 2014.04.08 18:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:I disagree on the payouts vehemently. There is zero doubt that there is a lot of ISK floating around out there, but it's where it's concentrated that creates one of the biggest problems Dust faces. PC players and ISK hoarders do not represent the average mercenary.
The payout system is flawed if you go 20-2 in a proto suit and lose ISK.
The payout system is flawed if you go 20-5 in ADV suits and lose ISK.
The payout system is flawed if you have to run BPO/militia/standard gear to turn a decent profit. I believe the paltry payouts create a risk averse environment in pubs (matches being decided within 2-3 minutes) and I believe it adds to the grind.
At the very least I think payouts should be increased to fill the void while PVE or other alternative methods of ISK generation are developed. I don't want to be rich, I just want more of the fights that seemed to be more frequent in the past. You make a good argument. I tried switching to an Advanced Sentinel suit and burned through 10 million ISK in about 3 weeks. I have had to go back to running a BPO suit. HMG Heavies just donGÇÖt make very much ISK. I average about 120K ISK a match. That being said, I would not want to see the payouts over inflated either. Would a 20% increase be enough?
I don't think so, but I think the payout formula would have to change to keep people from getting rich while AFK.
Our economy is already completely broken with the elite of the elite having more ISK than they could ever spend (it's hard to burn through ISK when you run a 10 KDR in pubs). The economy is a concern of mine for sure, but first and foremost Dust has to be an exciting first person shooter and in my opinion the economy that we have doesn't encourage winning matches at all.
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3312
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Posted - 2014.04.08 18:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think the 10% tax to NPC corps should be hotfixed during the next downtime.
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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General John Ripper
19453
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Posted - 2014.04.08 20:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
1) Do you believe further incentives are needed to liven up pub matches?
Further incentives? yes and no. Yes because you always want your team motivated to try and do their best. To not quit or rage quit. This can cause frustration for everyone else on the team. Why should a person at the top of the score board get the same rewards as a person on the bottom of the scoreboard? Why do I still get officer gear when I afk and am at last place of the scoreboard? The risk/reward system is completely flawed. Which is also why I am saying no. There is also the issue of the isk imbalance between vets and new players. The vets can afford to run proto everyday for years to come, the newcomers not so much. While I do agree that your hard work should justify rewards, this is also part of the problem that is turning new players away from the game. Not many players have the patience to lose for months until they get enough sp for a set of proto and "Get good".
CCP's current approach is patch one thing and break three other things. Pc was a great addition to the game, however it is buggy and flawed. It was also regularly abused to farm isk. Lock districts. ect. In order to fix a problem correctly, you must approach it from all angles. So how it affects different types of players, how it affects different parts of the game. If it can be abused it will be abused.
I can write a 10 page essay about this but i'll stop here. But If I became cpm, I would try to explore all possible angles and solutions.
2) Do you believe that some form of team deploy is needed to provide a low risk method of preparing for PC?
a team deploy without owning any land in pc? Why yes I do actually. It would be a great addition to the game and it can replace the flawed pfc. This team deploy shouldn't give out any isk. Instead it should be a completely customizable game. Let the players decide the rules of the game. How many people on each side, enable or disable team fire, ect. Let the players control this and they can choose to practice like a pfc fight or they can use it for corp activities or other community activities. Thunderdome could effectively find a permanent home in this type of custom game. Even a corp game of cowboys(shotguns) vs zombies ( novaknives) setup in a custom match can be a fun change of pace. You give the players the controls and who knows what creative fun ideas they might come up with. Again a customizable game mode should give out no isk rewards to leave out all potential room for abuse.
My like count = Nominate Ripper 4 cpm petition
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3314
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Posted - 2014.04.08 20:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
General John Ripper wrote:1) Do you believe further incentives are needed to liven up pub matches?
Further incentives? yes and no. Yes because you always want your team motivated to try and do their best. To not quit or rage quit. This can cause frustration for everyone else on the team. Why should a person at the top of the score board get the same rewards as a person on the bottom of the scoreboard? Why do I still get officer gear when I afk and am at last place of the scoreboard? The risk/reward system is completely flawed. Which is also why I am saying no. There is also the issue of the isk imbalance between vets and new players. The vets can afford to run proto everyday for years to come, the newcomers not so much. While I do agree that your hard work should justify rewards, this is also part of the problem that is turning new players away from the game. Not many players have the patience to lose for months until they get enough sp for a set of proto and "Get good".
CCP's current approach is patch one thing and break three other things. Pc was a great addition to the game, however it is buggy and flawed. It was also regularly abused to farm isk. Lock districts. ect. In order to fix a problem correctly, you must approach it from all angles. So how it affects different types of players, how it affects different parts of the game. If it can be abused it will be abused.
I can write a 10 page essay about this but i'll stop here. But If I became cpm, I would try to explore all possible angles and solutions.
2) Do you believe that some form of team deploy is needed to provide a low risk method of preparing for PC?
a team deploy without owning any land in pc? Why yes I do actually. It would be a great addition to the game and it can replace the flawed pfc. This team deploy shouldn't give out any isk. Instead it should be a completely customizable game. Let the players decide the rules of the game. How many people on each side, enable or disable team fire, ect. Let the players control this and they can choose to practice like a pfc fight or they can use it for corp activities or other community activities. Thunderdome could effectively find a permanent home in this type of custom game. Even a corp game of cowboys(shotguns) vs zombies ( novaknives) setup in a custom match can be a fun change of pace. You give the players the controls and who knows what creative fun ideas they might come up with. Again a customizable game mode should give out no isk rewards to leave out all potential room for abuse.
PAYOUTS: When you say vets can afford to run proto that isn't true. It's only a select few that can run proto 24/7. You need a very high KDR to run proto 24/7. But I get your point.
TEAM DEPLOY: I like your idea there, but I think there should still be a team deploy gamemode outside of PC that provides ISK and SP.
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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General John Ripper
19454
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Posted - 2014.04.08 20:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Another issue is that I think the player base is too small for NEW game modes. However some new game modes may be essential for the expansion of the game and attracting new players. I am not just talking about some gimmick game mode like adding a king of the hill game mode.
The only two new game modes I support is a customizable game mode with no rewards. Just to be used for fun and practice.
And a second game mode which will be an online co-op campaign. The campaign should have 4 seperate story lines for each race as the life of a merc for each of these races. This can serve as a sort of new player tutorial. Instead of using your own suits, you can use suits made by ccp so that new players can test out all types of guns and equipment even if they do not have sp invested into them. New players would be able to quickly decide whether going proto heavy, logi, scout, or assault is best for them. They should be forced to play through pretty much everything through out this campaign while also learning a little bit about this games lore. Dust has almost little to no backstory programmed into it. Just choose your race and fight. It kinda feels a little incomplete and the battle academy is not actually an academy but a temporary separation which is helping nobody.
Since a co-op campaign mode would be pretty standardized and controlled, the rewards can be a little more creative. *beat the logi portion of the story line, get logi equipment.* You shouldn't lose any isk in this game mode but instead gain isk and items. Also you cannot afk this game mode since you actually have to go through checkpoints and complete objectives. Vets might find this game mode amusing for a day but new comers to mid teir players could find it useful depending on the rewards and how effective it is in actually teaching how the game is played. At first glance dust can be confusing to a newberry. All those modules and different equipment.
these proposed game modes are not ment to replace the current ones. Only to supplement them.
My like count = Nominate Ripper 4 cpm petition
Sign it to let CCP know we are serious.
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General John Ripper
19454
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Posted - 2014.04.08 20:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
I also believe Medicinal ********* should be legalized everywhere.
Ripper 4 cpm.
My like count = Nominate Ripper 4 cpm petition
Sign it to let CCP know we are serious.
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Viktor Hadah Jr
Critical-Impact
3355
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Posted - 2014.04.09 05:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote: 1) Do you believe further incentives are needed to liven up pub matches?
2) Do you believe that some form of team deploy is needed to provide a low risk method of preparing for PC?
1. I think we need to have a modified hunger games scenario pile a bunch of protosuit in the middle of the map so all the poors in militia suits can upgrade for free. would that not be great.
But to make things interesting this has to be out in an open field and the people who already spawned in proto gear will be able sit perched up in a tower having a clear shot at the pile of free proto gear. I think the sub-humans who can't afford proto gear could enjoy this. but to even it out the people who have a lot of ISK can also enjoy shotting down people running into the kill box.
2. Yes you have no idea how many times i wanted to take out my officer weapons but did not feel comfortable because i did not have enough proto friends beside me. Q-syncing is hard sometimes.
Viktor Hadah For CPM
also 10% NPC tax rate is a bit low, 25% or GTFO
110Mil+ ISK Lottery
Queen improves gameplay by 100%
Inertia dampeners are for poors
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3322
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Posted - 2014.04.09 12:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote: 1) Do you believe further incentives are needed to liven up pub matches?
2) Do you believe that some form of team deploy is needed to provide a low risk method of preparing for PC?
1. I think we need to have a modified hunger games scenario pile a bunch of protosuit in the middle of the map so all the poors in militia suits can upgrade for free. would that not be great. But to make things interesting this has to be out in an open field and the people who already spawned in proto gear will be able sit perched up in a tower having a clear shot at the pile of free proto gear. I think the sub-humans who can't afford proto gear could enjoy this. but to even it out the people who have a lot of ISK can also enjoy shotting down people running into the kill box. 2. Yes you have no idea how many times i wanted to take out my officer weapons but did not feel comfortable because i did not have enough proto friends beside me. Q-syncing is hard sometimes. Viktor Hadah For CPMalso 10% NPC tax rate is a bit low, 25% or GTFO
Wow
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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General John Ripper
19550
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Posted - 2014.04.09 18:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
damn he got my vote.
My like count = Nominate Ripper 4 cpm petition
Sign it to let CCP know we are serious.
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