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Magnus Amadeuss
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2014.04.07 04:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Tanks are nerfed.
They're pretty balanced at the moment; I think a small nerf to armour repairers and a large nerf to damage mods would sort us out
EDIT: also blasters are fucken ridiculous.
I've been using an MLT one on a soma and ripping up everything.
Tanks were nerfed at the same time all infantry were nerfed.
Infantry lost 50% to damage modifiers
Infantry lost 50% to proficiency
Infantry lost 33% AV grenade capacity
Tankers lost ~30% to hardners.
Relatively, tanks weren't really nerfed, and non-hardner tanks (like 3 repper tanks) were actually boosted.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
695
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Posted - 2014.04.07 06:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Tanks are nerfed.
They're pretty balanced at the moment; I think a small nerf to armour repairers and a large nerf to damage mods would sort us out
EDIT: also blasters are fucken ridiculous.
I've been using an MLT one on a soma and ripping up everything. Tanks were nerfed at the same time all infantry were nerfed. Infantry lost 50% to damage modifiers Infantry lost 50% to proficiency Infantry lost 33% AV grenade capacity Tankers lost ~30% to hardners. Relatively, tanks weren't really nerfed, and non-hardner tanks (like 3 repper tanks) were actually boosted. Not a proportionate nerf. That's 15% damage from my forge, which does not conpensate for the lost EHP. Especially since now everything breaks my regeneration. Definitely passive tanks got a buff, which makes them actually useful now. But the tank nerf was more significant, generally speaking, than the AV nerf was.
Everything AV should have always broke your regeneration. That was an obvious f-up (it was put in so that infantry weapons wouldn't break your regeneration, not AV).
I actually did make some charts and graphs about it, but I feel like that would be overkill. Lets just say that the differences aren't that major in any way shape of form. Sure, tanks were definitely nerfed versus tank weaponry, but hte nerf versus our current AV wasn't nearly as bad, especially if you are an armor tanker.
For example:
Dual hardned madruger vs triple dmg mod lvl 5 proficiency swarms
Pre 1.8 427 dmg
Post 1.8 482 damage.
Of course the nerf is harsher the more hardners you would have normally fit, meaning a 3 hardner gunnlogi/madruger got nerfed way harder than a 1 hardner boat did. Oddly enough, this also means that max hardner sica/somas didn't get nerfed as hard as max hardner gunnlogis/madrugars.
Also upon further review, shield hardners were nerfed WAY hard than armor hardners. It is actually pretty insane the difference in the nerfs.
For instance:
Damage let through armor/(shield)
3 hardner pre 1.8
30%/(12.5%)
3 hardner post 1.8
50.3%/(30.2%)
This means that the armor hardner setup is letting though 1.66 times more damage while the shield hardner setup is letting through 2.4 times more damage.
Wow, man if you guys ever want a more detailed anaylysis of how shield tankers got screwed compared to armor tankers, let me know.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
695
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Posted - 2014.04.07 06:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Tanks are nerfed.
They're pretty balanced at the moment; I think a small nerf to armour repairers and a large nerf to damage mods would sort us out
EDIT: also blasters are fucken ridiculous.
I've been using an MLT one on a soma and ripping up everything. Tanks were nerfed at the same time all infantry were nerfed. Infantry lost 50% to damage modifiers Infantry lost 50% to proficiency Infantry lost 33% AV grenade capacity Tankers lost ~30% to hardners. Relatively, tanks weren't really nerfed, and non-hardner tanks (like 3 repper tanks) were actually boosted. Not even close. I take on 50% more damage, and all of those damnable swarms break my hardened regen, not just the really dedicated and invested ones. Your damage nerf is almost cute next to my EHP nerf. You have no reason to complain. AV vs tanks is perfectly balanced. It's just that tank vs tank got f***ed up the ass while making it perfect.
No it isn't. IT really isn't.
The only way you take on 52% more damage, and this is only from other vehicles) is if you were running a triple hardened gunnlogi. A triple hardened gunnlogi now takes 19% of tank damage, rather than 12.5% of tank damage. Still quite good I would say. So what is 75% of 19% in the case of current AV versus shields? 14.25% damage, that is how much damage you take from swarms and forge guns, rather than 12.5%. That is not a large nerf.
Oh and as for versus AV? A triple hardened gunnlogi only takes 357 damage from a fully maxed out prototype swarm launcher with 3 damage mods. That means you could potentially have 2 fully proto'd out swarm launchers firing at you at the exact same time, and they still wouldn't have the damage to kill you without a re-load... assuming you stuck around that long.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
695
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Posted - 2014.04.07 06:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Tanks are nerfed.
They're pretty balanced at the moment; I think a small nerf to armour repairers and a large nerf to damage mods would sort us out
EDIT: also blasters are fucken ridiculous.
I've been using an MLT one on a soma and ripping up everything. Tanks were nerfed at the same time all infantry were nerfed. Infantry lost 50% to damage modifiers Infantry lost 50% to proficiency Infantry lost 33% AV grenade capacity Tankers lost ~30% to hardners. Relatively, tanks weren't really nerfed, and non-hardner tanks (like 3 repper tanks) were actually boosted. Not a proportionate nerf. That's 15% damage from my forge, which does not conpensate for the lost EHP. Especially since now everything breaks my regeneration. Definitely passive tanks got a buff, which makes them actually useful now. But the tank nerf was more significant, generally speaking, than the AV nerf was. Everything AV should have always broke your regeneration. That was an obvious f-up (it was put in so that infantry weapons wouldn't break your regeneration, not AV). I actually did make some charts and graphs about it, but I feel like that would be overkill. Lets just say that the differences aren't that major in any way shape of form. Sure, tanks were definitely nerfed versus tank weaponry, but hte nerf versus our current AV wasn't nearly as bad, especially if you are an armor tanker. For example: Dual hardned madruger vs triple dmg mod lvl 5 proficiency swarms Pre 1.8 427 dmg Post 1.8 482 damage. Of course the nerf is harsher the more hardners you would have normally fit, meaning a 3 hardner gunnlogi/madruger got nerfed way harder than a 1 hardner boat did. Oddly enough, this also means that max hardner sica/somas didn't get nerfed as hard as max hardner gunnlogis/madrugars. Also upon further review, shield hardners were nerfed WAY hard than armor hardners. It is actually pretty insane the difference in the nerfs. For instance: Damage let through armor/(shield) 3 hardner pre 1.8 30%/(12.5%) 3 hardner post 1.8 50.3%/(30.2%) This means that the armor hardner setup is letting though 1.66 times more damage while the shield hardner setup is letting through 2.4 times more damage. Wow, man if you guys ever want a more detailed anaylysis of how shield tankers got screwed compared to armor tankers, let me know. Actually in regeneration tanking traditionally regen never stops..... its constantly on going. Which is what makes the Drake such a powerful passive shield tanker.
What does that have to do with anything? There is a passive tank, it is called the madruger with 2-3 armor reps. I am not sure why CCP made the armor tanker the passive tanker, but they did.
Shields were meant to regen when not under fire from other tanks/AV. Triple hardeners allowed shields to regen while under fire from AV. This was not CCP's intention (when asked, they said that they set the damage threshold so that small arms couldn't stop regen, not AV)
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
695
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Posted - 2014.04.07 06:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Tanks are nerfed.
They're pretty balanced at the moment; I think a small nerf to armour repairers and a large nerf to damage mods would sort us out
EDIT: also blasters are fucken ridiculous.
I've been using an MLT one on a soma and ripping up everything. Tanks were nerfed at the same time all infantry were nerfed. Infantry lost 50% to damage modifiers Infantry lost 50% to proficiency Infantry lost 33% AV grenade capacity Tankers lost ~30% to hardners. Relatively, tanks weren't really nerfed, and non-hardner tanks (like 3 repper tanks) were actually boosted. Not even close. I take on 50% more damage, and all of those damnable swarms break my hardened regen, not just the really dedicated and invested ones. Your damage nerf is almost cute next to my EHP nerf. You have no reason to complain. AV vs tanks is perfectly balanced. It's just that tank vs tank got f***ed up the ass while making it perfect.
Exactly close. My numbers are correct.
AV is meant to break your regen, it always has been. CCP stated they set the threshold so that small arms fire wouldn't prevent regen, not AV.
AV versus tanks is not balanced. Your triple hardned gunnlogi takes 200 dmg from standard swarms instead of 100 now, that is still absolutely pitiful. It would take 15 volleys just to try and crack your shield assuming they wouldn't regen (which they would) between reloads.
No proto suit in the game is immune to 100% free starter suits (they die quite easily to them), but your gunnlogi is 100% immune to a solo standard swarmer, you know, AV'er, your dedicated counter. Yep that is broken.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
723
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Posted - 2014.04.08 03:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Chesyre Armundsen wrote:I would say that 1.8 has brought about the greatest change and diversity in DUST and it will continue to do so. Thinking that the game is being broken by CCP by making changes is too simple of a viewpoint. If you make a adjustments things will change, and we all know that DUST is far from static. CCP could easily leave everything set on stone from day 1, but they listen to our feedback (and that's everyone's on either side of an argument) then make alterations that they feel will help drive the game towards their overall vision. Try no to be narrow minded and looking at DUST as another game with DLC packs to give you another mode, maps or weapons to keep things fresh. DUST will grow ad change and as Mercs it's our job to learn how the battlefield is changing and adapt. Never saw jihad jeeps as an option to kill HAV's and then *poof* they show up because of a need. It's like the changing face of contemporary warfare. I don't want DUST to be a game that requires things like COD Ghosts Predator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLYUdzpGYX4OR Titanfall Optimus Prime https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX2qCpRxilMThat would be the day we jump the shark IMO Exactly. When the cross bow was introduced in the real world back in the middle ages, suddenly the dynamics of the battlefield changed because now you have a easy-mode weapon that can accurately fire an arrow at range and not have to invest much of any training to use it. Then the cannon was introduced. Then the flint-lock or musket came in. Then the AK-47 and now drones and computer viruses in modern warfare. War changes. It's up to us to adapt to those changes. War NEVER changes... 5,000 years of written history here on Earth says otherwise.
Who are you going to believe, history or the narrator from fallout (Ron Perlman)?
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
723
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Posted - 2014.04.08 03:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Chesyre Armundsen wrote:I would say that 1.8 has brought about the greatest change and diversity in DUST and it will continue to do so. Thinking that the game is being broken by CCP by making changes is too simple of a viewpoint. If you make a adjustments things will change, and we all know that DUST is far from static. CCP could easily leave everything set on stone from day 1, but they listen to our feedback (and that's everyone's on either side of an argument) then make alterations that they feel will help drive the game towards their overall vision. Try no to be narrow minded and looking at DUST as another game with DLC packs to give you another mode, maps or weapons to keep things fresh. DUST will grow ad change and as Mercs it's our job to learn how the battlefield is changing and adapt. Never saw jihad jeeps as an option to kill HAV's and then *poof* they show up because of a need. It's like the changing face of contemporary warfare. I don't want DUST to be a game that requires things like COD Ghosts Predator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLYUdzpGYX4OR Titanfall Optimus Prime https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX2qCpRxilMThat would be the day we jump the shark IMO Exactly. When the cross bow was introduced in the real world back in the middle ages, suddenly the dynamics of the battlefield changed because now you have a easy-mode weapon that can accurately fire an arrow at range and not have to invest much of any training to use it. Then the cannon was introduced. Then the flint-lock or musket came in. Then the AK-47 and now drones and computer viruses in modern warfare. War changes. It's up to us to adapt to those changes. War NEVER changes... 5,000 years of written history here on Earth says otherwise. WAR NEVER CHANGES! RON PERLMAN TELL'S YOU WHAT! HE TELL'S YOU WHAT!
beat me by seconds true
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
725
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Posted - 2014.04.08 04:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:
I think it's cute how you state facts without really knowing what really goes on. A triple hardener fit just sucks. Yes I get high resistance, but my shields are at their base minimum, which means that I am f***ed if I'm caught when all three hardeners are cooling down. At least with 1 hardener and 2 shield extenders, I have 5300 shield to act as a buffer to let me get to safety if my hardener is on cooldown.
A swarm shouldn't be able to break my hardened regen. It's specialized for anti-armor. This means that it has to give up effectiveness against shield. If it's making me retreat, then the swarm is too powerful because it's good at multiple things. It can't be specialized against armor and make a shield tank retreat. It's like asking for bug spray to deter wolves as well when you're out in the forest.
AV versus tanks is balanced. I'm forced to retreat when I'm being hit by forge guns because my large missile turret isn't too reliable to kill a forge gunner. You see that? It's a perfect example of trade-offs. My missile turret has high AV abilities at the cost of AI abilities. If I had a blaster turret, I'd kill the forge gunner instead of retreating, because the blaster is meant for AI (thought its AV is too powerful now due to the hardener nerf, so either reduce its damage or its RoF).
And if you're trying to take out a hardened shield tank with a swarm, GTFO. Don't cry that your swarm can't kill a hardened shield tank because it wasn't meant to in the first place.
That "I think it's cute..." line shows me that you put more value in uncle fester's back-handed wisdom than cold hard numbers, and that shows me that you are just ill equipped to have an adult conversation about tangible things.
I underlined a bit of just complete insanity, I really can't believe you just wrote that. I had to read it a few times just to try to figure out where in the world you got this horrible idea of how dust works from. So you think that rail rifles, combat rifles, flaylocks, mass drivers, locus grenades and HMGs should not break shield regen based on the fact that they are armor specialized? I mean that is basically the SAME EXACT THING you just said, I just swaped out ANTI VEHICLE weaponry for anti infantry weaponry.
In the next paragraph, you state a bunch of supposition originating from you and other idiots, not from the game designers. I am pretty sure the last time I heard CCP mention vehicle weapons, they stated that large turrets were for larger sturctures and for vehicles, and small turrets were meant for infantry. Unfortunately, I do not have the quote off hand so I will not present it as a fact.
Get this through your small brain;
1) There is not such thing as light-vehicle AV or heavy vehicle AV.
2) The differences in damage profiles of AV is purely to make the more efficient versus their racial enemies, not to pigeon-hole them
3)Math and facts >>> intuition and good ol' boy knowledge.
Fixing swarms
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
725
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Posted - 2014.04.08 04:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:im a scout and tanker. can anyone guess how awesome i think this patch is?
So Good
Fixing swarms
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