DUST Search - Shotgun = ez mode

Jake Diesel wrote:

Lol. You make it sound like there's hardly anywhere that a scout with a shotty/cloak. There are many variables that makes it difficult to "eye" every possible flanking position. A cloaked scout only needs to see where you are, and if he's good he can easily close the distance gap without being seen. Once that gap is closed, all it takes is two shots and you're dead. The odds are always in the favor of the scout. The shotgun is too powerful for the easy time it takes to close the gap. Worse are heavies. With barely the speed, they're the best target. Scouts can jump 5 feet high. Which makes them hard targets when engaging even face to face. But when you can't see them as easily, it's worse.

I have no problem with cloak as they are. I have more issues with how powerful shotguns are and have always been. Only many have not really noticed due to all the rifle rage. But I've seen players go 40/2 with a shotgun with speed mods and no one could take them out. And by the way, they weren't hiding. They killed almost everyone with one hit, and dropped hard targets with two. These balances and op topics aren't based on scrub players. It's the good players. Only the scrubs learn from this and copy.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4899	Posted - 2014.04.05 05:59:00 - [1] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Seriously ^. Scouts are well-balanced if you're not using the easy mode gun. The shotgun has always been balanced around the insanely low optimal. Now that it's trivial to get in to that range, it's just too easy. Double sidearms all day for the win. That is all. Going to stop you right there. Awry Barux wrote: Now that it's trivial to get in to that range No. It isn't. You need to stay far enough away from enemies to avoid being seen (YES, YOU CAN SEE A CLOAKED PLAYER MOVING) while also getting in close enough to use your Shotgun. What's ACTUALLY trivial is countering a cloaked Scout who's relying on their "crutch" (cloak) to let them move in close. They trust in their partial invisibility, and a competent and alert player WILL see them moving, and if you don't kill them immediately, you know where they are and where they're going. Watch for the flanking approach, and watch as it fails miserably because you saw them coming.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4901	Posted - 2014.04.05 06:40:00 - [2] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Going to have to disagree completely. What you're saying may be true in PC or whatever, but do you know what percentage of pub players are "competent and alert"? In my estimation it's <10%. That doesn't mean the cloak is OP, or that Shotguns are OP. It means that competence and alertness are OP. If you're a Shotgun Scout and not competent or alert, you'll be dead before you start. Quote: As long as you follow pre-1.8 flanking strategies/routes, the cloak will increase your flanking success rate to upwards of 90%. If you didn't know how to flank before, the cloak won't save you, but if you were already flanking before 1.8, it's just too easy. The vast majority of my deaths now come from over-estimating how many reds I can successfully ambush in group, as opposed to getting picked off by that one red who happened to look behind the blob. As long as you follow pre-1.8 flanking strategies and routes, YOU DON'T NEED A CLOAK ANYWAY. If you didn't know how to flank before, the cloak won't save you. If you were flanking before 1.8, you're good and the guy you killed deserved to die because they are bad. The vast majority of your deaths come from you overestimating your own abilities. The times where you die because someone turned around or was actively aware of the threat of a cloaked Scout may be rare, but they're also the times where you DESERVE to die. People need to learn that cloaking is in the game, and that it's really, really, REALLY easy to counter if you're actually paying attention to what you're doing. Cloaking should not be balanced around the current state of pub matches, because the new players WILL learn to look for cloaks, just like skilled players - whether in PC or not - already have. Shotguns are only OP against bad players who are slow to adapt, or new players who haven't had time to do so yet.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4915	Posted - 2014.04.05 10:16:00 - [3] - Quote Theresa Rohk wrote: Right, so when we're fighting other people, we're also supposed to be scanning around and watching for scouts. You let me know how you got that double monitor and split attention rig working. Even looking around, you often can't see them before they're in range, and if they are in range, you die. It isn't learning to look for them, it's the brokenness of having 2 proto scouts decimate an entire team because you can't do anything else. When you're fighting other people, you should have SOMEONE ELSE watching your back, because you're busy. If you're good, you can keep an eye on the peripherals to watch for the blue shimmer and know there are cloakers nearby. When you realise that, it might be time to reassess the situation and possibly fall back or divert someone from the fight to go shadow-hunting. If enemy Scouts are out there unimpeded, that means your team outnumbers the non-sneaking players on the enemy team. This, in turn, means that if you're competent, you should be beating the enemies easily because of your numerical superiority, and when the Scouts show up, they'll be showing up in a fight which is already turning to your advantage. If the enemy team has less people putting pressure on, then you have less pressure and need to devote less of your effort to countering the distracting enemies, which frees you up to watch for Scouts. Quote: It would be fine if once you found them, you could fight them, but it's basically instant death if you're in a non heavy suit, and a 2 second one in anything sub proto-heavy. If you find a Scout and are dying that soon afterwards, YOU DIDN'T FIND THEM. You caught sight of them too late for it to matter, so it doesn't count. If you "find" a Shotgun Scout, then you're outside of Shotgun range, and they die before they get to you. If you "find" any other kind of Scout, then you fight them as normal, and you probably have the eHP advantage, so unless they're better equipped (or just better at the game) than you, either they retreat or you win. Quote: Chopping it up to player skill is just asinine. I've caught a few, but that doesn't negate the people going 40/0 in a single match because you can't fight the tactic. The new best tactic is to pull a Team Fortress 2, and just spin around firing constantly to see if you hit someone. I have yet to see anyone go 40/0 in DUST since 1.8, and the best K/D I've seen outside of a vehicle was a HEAVY who went 30/0 thanks to 2 good Logis keeping him alive (who went 0/2 and 0/3). I'm yet to see a Scout who earned more than 5 kills without dying once. Usually it's 12 - 15 kills and 2 - 7 deaths for a competent Scout, and the reverse for someone who's bad at the role. There's a BIG difference between "you can't fight that tactic" and "I don't know how to fight that tactic". You're using the wrong one. Learn how to counter Shotgun Scouts and this won't be a problem.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4915	Posted - 2014.04.05 10:18:00 - [4] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Shotgun is worse than 1.7 as rof took a hit. But paired with the cloak your firsr shotgun blast counts as a freebie and the second shot being the one you turn visible. In most cases, a competent Scout will be getting a "freebie" with their first shot anyway, because it's usually taken from behind the victim.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4941	Posted - 2014.04.05 21:45:00 - [5] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Truthfully, the shotgun probably only needs a slight tweak or two to get it into balance with other weapons DPS range. I'd say, if it were at all possible, Drop the damage dramatically.. (like within the range of AR's DPS) First off, lets look at the numbers: Shotgun damage: 40 per pellet x 12 pellets (presumed number based on old unconfirmed info) = 480 Shotgun rate of fire: 85.71 Damage per minute: 480 x 85.71 = 41140.8 Damage per second: 41140.8 / 60 = 685.68 AR damage: 30 AR rate of fire: 750 rpm Damage per minute: 30 x 750 = 22500 Damage per second: / 60 = 375 Ignoring reloads, comparing Standard model of each weapon, this looks pretty cut and dried, but it's actually not. Clip size of 8 for Shotgun vs. 60 for AR. Damage per reload is 3840 for a Shotgun, and 1800 for an Assault Rifle. This gap is smaller than the gap in no-reload DPS. That difference means the Shotgun would be losing DPS on reloading even if the two weapons reload at the same speed. Shotgun reload time is 0.6s per round, so a full 8 shot reload takes 4.8s while an AR can reload in 3.0s. So to account for the Shotgun reloading both slower AND more often than the Assault Rifle, and you have to lower the gap in DPS between the two. After that adjustment, you also have to think about the fact that Shotguns don't always hit with every single pellet every time you pull the trigger. you'll get clean misses occasionally with both weapons, so those can be ignored, but Shotgun hits are effectively a random damage value between 40 (one pellet hits) and 480 (all pellets hit) while the AR will always be dealing its 30 damage with a shot that hits within optimal range. The fact of how Shotguns deal damage reduces the DPS by a significant margin, and when factoring that in with the loss of DPS from reloading, you'll probably find that the effective DPS on a Shotgun is actually already lower than the AR. Shotguns are about high alpha damage (a well-aimed point-blank shot will typically put between 300 and 500 damage onto an enemy), but they lose in DPS battles because once your target is moving and making it hard to land your hits, that damage per shot plummets down to the 100 - 200 range against most targets. Heavies are slower and have a larger hitbox, making them easier targets for the higher-end damage numbers, but Light and Medium frames can make it MUCH tougher to get significant damage on target. If you're good at keeping your sights on a target, the AR will be hitting the majority of its shots and dealing 30 damage each time. No matter how good you are with your aim, the Shotgun will have a large number of pellets miss even when you're on target. I actually find that a single Shotgun blast to the back of a target's head is best, followed by switching to my Sidearm to finish the job. The SMG kills enemies faster than a Shotgun will once the target is trying to avoid taking damage.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4941	Posted - 2014.04.05 21:50:00 - [6] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Well... I mean, yeah. Duh. When you're hunting mediums/heavies, there's no need for precision enhancers, and damage mods are all but worthless in comparison to extenders, so of course I stack shields. It's a combat suit- of course I'm going to tank it. EHP wins fights. Heavy shield tank leaves the lows free for range amps, giving me ~50m of scan radius. It's important to strike a balance between ewar and good old regular war. So as soon as an enemy Scout picks you up (and they will), you're dead because they circle behind and hit you from outside your range with whatever not-Shotgun weapon they want to murder you with today, and because you're not stacking Profile Dampeners, you aren't able to hide from their passive scans at about 50m range. And as soon as a Logi is running a high-end Scanner, you light up and everyone on the other team can see (and kill) you just like they would if you weren't cloaked. It's important to strike a balance between EWAR and good old regular war. And your balance is off.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4943	Posted - 2014.04.05 22:18:00 - [7] - Quote Jake Diesel wrote: Lol. You make it sound like there's hardly anywhere that a scout with a shotty/cloak. There are many variables that makes it difficult to "eye" every possible flanking position. A cloaked scout only needs to see where you are, and if he's good he can easily close the distance gap without being seen. Once that gap is closed, all it takes is two shots and you're dead. The odds are always in the favor of the scout. The shotgun is too powerful for the easy time it takes to close the gap. Worse are heavies. With barely the speed, they're the best target. Scouts can jump 5 feet high. Which makes them hard targets when engaging even face to face. But when you can't see them as easily, it's worse. I have no problem with cloak as they are. I have more issues with how powerful shotguns are and have always been. Only many have not really noticed due to all the rifle rage. But I've seen players go 40/2 with a shotgun with speed mods and no one could take them out. And by the way, they weren't hiding. They killed almost everyone with one hit, and dropped hard targets with two. These balances and op topics aren't based on scrub players. It's the good players. Only the scrubs learn from this and copy. Skilled players are OP vs. new people. Nerf player skill and experience. You're complaining that good players are putting up good numbers against BAD PLAYERS. BAD PLAYERS BEING BAD doesn't make the Shotgun OP. Just like how the AR isn't OP because of those couple of times I got 10 kills without a single death on my Logi fitting because people basically ran out into the open in front of my AR. And just like how one of my friends going 20/0 in a Sniper fitting in Ambush doesn't make the Sniper Rifle OP. I've seen multiple tankers hit 20+ kills for 2 or less deaths since the last round of tank nerfs, but that doesn't prove they're still OP just because they sometimes find a pub match where nobody on the enemy team is willing to dust off their AV fittings. I've seen the same good cloaked Shotgun Scouts who put up 30/2 scores run 7/5 or worse when facing skilled opponents. I've had 0/9 on that Logi fitting I went 10/0 with on the same day. My Sniper friend has been counter-sniped or hunted by Scouts and pushed to as low as 7/5 in one match, with a few 2.0 K/D fights as well. Those tankers who are capable of 30/0 games against AV-less teams will struggle to break 5 kills if they stay alive against skilled AV, or will be getting themselves killed almost as fast as they kill their targets.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4950	Posted - 2014.04.06 07:26:00 - [8] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: RE: Aim-Assist aka Auto-Aim Awry Barux wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: If you use as , you're bad and should feel bad No. It's built into the game and turned on by default, at a dev-determined level of strength. The idea that I should turn it off out of some sort of internet honor is truly hilarious. Your injunction to feel bad is ineffective. The exact same point could be used against all this cloak butthurt. LOL No. Cloak is built into the game at a dev-determined level of strength. The idea that I shouldn't use it out of some sort of internet honor is truly hilarious. Your injunction to feel bad is ineffective. Or... No. Keyboard/mouse support is built into the game and turned on by default, at a dev-determined level of strength. The idea that I shouldn't use it out of some sort of console controller honor is truly hilarious. Your injunction to feel bad is ineffective. That's the great thing about that point. Anyway, I never suggested that anyone not use anything- there's no such thing as internet video game honor. I just said some things are easier than others. The no, Shotgun isn't "ez mode". Aim Assist is.