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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1348
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Posted - 2014.03.31 15:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fanfest is now only a couple weeks away. I think its safe to assume that anything candidates propose now would be out of date shortly.
As many have said before, the issue lies with the passive ISK generation of PC. Yes, it should be extremely profitable to entice corporations to participate in it but there needs to be effort involved in making it so once a district is taken. This means that there needs to be player time involved in generating something on the district that can be sold.
PC 1.0 was a poorly thought out stopgap to justify the 'release' of the game and did not have the appropriate ancillary tasks implemented to give it the complexity it needs.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1361
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Posted - 2014.04.01 19:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
RemingtonBeaver wrote:It is apparent that PC corporations are in no position to govern themselves as many found that grouping together to monopolize the game mode is far more profitable that playing it as intended. The renting of districts and paying protection fees is not what was intended. It has turned into its worst possible form. An extortion machine.
The Council should weigh in on this topic. I'm especially interested in how Kain Spero feels about it, considering he played a part in orchestrating this method of exaction and extortion.
It's apparent that this does not help grow the community and only serves to further the divide between new players and veterans.
I say we freeze all PC assets. Donate any generated income towards NPE programs. Pilot incentives for new players. Providing grants for new players.
As well as provide Dust University with their own space within PC that would forever remain neutral.
There must be rules.
We need The Council.
All of MH was able to be taken because the PC system was poorly thought out in terms of what is need to take and hold a district and the amount of effort that needs to be involved in maintaining said districts to profit from them. It was nothing more than a thrown together mechanic to be able to launch the game within a specific timeframe.
That being said, what any corporation does with their land once acquired is completely up to them as anything else would go against the free-form nature of New Eden. Penalizing players for working within the guidelines stipulated by CCP and giving others a free-ride would do nothing but create a backlash within the community and erode the constant message the CCP has been focused on for years.
If I could request one thing from the community, it would be to stop trying to find way to punish others or make everything 'fair' and honestly look at future solutions that would give everyone the same opportunity (without limits) but also make them work for their reward. I see too much of 'these guys deserve this' or 'these guys have too much of that' which, to be frank, CCP has never cared about... EVER. They have allowed groups to dominate in EVE for years and see no issue with that. It actually adds to the lore of the game when one of them gets taken down (see B.O.B)
The current system is massively flawed and will only be fixed when:
- Work actually needs to be done on a district (time and effort) for it to be able to generate ISK. That isnt to say that it shouldnt be extremely profitable. It just shouldnt be a money tree that grows on its own.
- Mechanics are put into place that turn wars into something other than being able to put your best 16 in a match at any given time. Only through complexity of strategy and resources will these seem like actual wars instead of long exhausting strings of pub matches.
- More immersion into what it means to actually own a specific piece of space in both Dust and EVE. Right now, clones are magically transported from one planet to the next by the Genolution fairy and there is nothing that another corp can do about it other than manipulation of timers and locking
In all honesty, work should have been done on completely revamping PC once EoN. proved that one alliance can dominate the whole grid. The current situation is just proof that CCP has not addressed this and it continues to be an issue.
I am hoping that CCP addresses this in full at Fanfest or I do not have much hope for the next year of this game.
Final Thought - Always think about the mechanics of the game itself rather than putting the onus on other players to create work-arounds to a broken system. Its not the community's responsibility to fix the game, its CCPs. There will ALWAYS be someone who will take advantage of a situation for their own good, all they need is the opportunity.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1361
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Posted - 2014.04.01 20:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Why not Devalue/Remove ISK when the Currencies merge? I mean remeber these suits are high tech things that were recently made, they're going to be expensive.
The open market and a combined market are two separate things. CCP would need to do a massive amount of 'what if' scenarios about a combined market as there are possibly certain scenarios where it could be game-breaking for Dust.
Remember, there are ways in eve to make 100m ISK in a day or less.
Dust RM value of ISK is based on the conversion of AUR since it is a FTP game
EVE RM value of ISK is based on the converstion of PLEX since its is a subscription game
To balance out the two markets they would have to make sure that $1 invested in Dust is equal to $1 invested in EVE. They would also need to make sure that Dust mercs can achieve parity on market potential with EVE players as well as the ability to create their own equipment.
Here is a scenario that could or could not play out. Someone uses EVE capital to buy up all of the Uplinks on the Dust market. They inflate the prices to sky high levels where it can only possibly be purchased by other EVE players or that EVE players corp/alliance (at the regular rate). The only way to get uplinks then would be through grinding out Amarr FW everyday to get enough for PC. Without the ability to manufacture Dust equipment, there is no way to baseline the prices. If that manufacturing were solely done in EVE then that still means that Dust mercs are beholden to their EVE masters.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1365
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Posted - 2014.04.01 22:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:Final Thought - Always think about the mechanics of the game itself rather than putting the onus on other players to create work-arounds to a broken system. Its not the community's responsibility to fix the game, its CCPs. There will ALWAYS be someone who will take advantage of a situation for their own good, all they need is the opportunity. This is a very important point. New Eden, in fact, encourages players to play selfishly. While it can cause drama and meta in it's own right, shaming someone for playing the game the way the game is designed isn't really fair to them. Heck, a lot of people hate on Nyain San, yet Nyain San has never even really played exploitatively. They just happen to have bad server mechanics on their side and no competition in their time zone.
Cronos did the same thing. MH has shown time and time again that there is always another hungry corp waiting in the wings and they will run into the issue of a donut as well. There is no mechanic where there are diminishing returns for taking more districts as there is absolutely no need for player input to create profit
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1366
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Posted - 2014.04.02 01:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:
....
The current system is massively flawed and will only be fixed when:
- Work actually needs to be done on a district (time and effort) for it to be able to generate ISK. That isnt to say that it shouldnt be extremely profitable. It just shouldnt be a money tree that grows on its own.
- Mechanics are put into place that turn wars into something other than being able to put your best 16 in a match at any given time. Only through complexity of strategy and resources will these seem like actual wars instead of long exhausting strings of pub matches.
- More immersion into what it means to actually own a specific piece of space in both Dust and EVE. Right now, clones are magically transported from one planet to the next by the Genolution fairy and there is nothing that another corp can do about it other than manipulation of timers and locking
In all honesty, work should have been done on completely revamping PC once EoN. proved that one alliance can dominate the whole grid. The current situation is just proof that CCP has not addressed this and it continues to be an issue.
I am hoping that CCP addresses this in full at Fanfest or I do not have much hope for the next year of this game.
Final Thought - Always think about the mechanics of the game itself rather than putting the onus on other players to create work-arounds to a broken system. Its not the community's responsibility to fix the game, its CCPs. There will ALWAYS be someone who will take advantage of a situation for their own good, all they need is the opportunity.
Canari, well said and a mature response to a topic that other members of DNS have essentially taken great pleasure in poking the community about. +1 I think you cut to the heart of the matter on several fronts. For the record, no one is exploiting anything...just doing what the game allows. I think the scenerio that a handful of players can control MH because effectively time and distance have little to no meaning is one the most frustrating. Tightening the EVE side interaction suddenly creates opportunities for corps outside NF, DBS, ect. When the logistics of war matter (at least a little) and having a viable EVE side partner can truly sway the outcome this gives an advantage to a smaller corp that that has a strong EVE link...which should be incentvized. Additionally, having some form of Sov bills or upkeep work to be an ISK sink and create the conditions that a corp can actually be overstretched deepens the gameplay and meta opportunities.
Dont take anything anyone says outside of this section of the forums to heart. I speak like this in here because I take off my corp and alliance tags and get down to what is best for the future of the game. I think the majority of my corp mates and alliance members would sound very similar if you talked to them outside of their 'game personality'.
Many PC corps only really want one thing.. good fights. The current situation only happened because two separate groups went after the same carrot to secure long term competitiveness. I have spoken with DNSBlack (who is running for CSM) and he feels the same way about the situation in MH. The fights that can be had during wartime can be incredibly entertaining both on the ground and in the skies but they are way too short lived. Most major wars in Dust last no more than a week or two before the scales tip and one side begins to dominate the other. Once one side has the advantage, they can press it until they own all of MH. While it may take months in EVE to gain footholds in certain regions, you can conquer Dust before your milk goes bad. All it takes is being able to field 16 mercs at any given time that are better than what the other side can put on the ground.
There is no attrition
There are no decision points about how costly it is getting to continue the battle
There are no front lines
Until PC has some similarity to actual combat, it will be a flawed system. I know this will induce a lot of groans but CCP needs to take a queue from Zipper about zoned battlefields and larger groups of mercs fighting over distanced objectives. Unlock the entire terrain map for PC battles and have three separate conflicts going on at once. That way, an attacker can choose to focus all 48 mercs one front or try to flank to another battlefield to try to gain a foothold there. End the timed battles that we have right now and set different victory conditions where an opponent can keep shoveling clones (ISK) at the battle if they feel it is of strategic value. The longer and more immersive you make PC battles, the more it becomes an alternative to simple pub matches.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1373
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Posted - 2014.04.02 16:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Spectral Clone wrote:All ISK generated in Molden Heath need to be either removed, or devalued by completely changing the scale of money involved in PC.
I prefer the second option. I think to some degree, that will probably happen. By inflating the economy, to bring it closer to EVE ISK value, CCP can render the ISK stockpiles people have "less valuable" without removing it. This could be accomplished by simultaneously raising market prices and raising pub match payout, but not increasing people's wallets. That may, to some degree, actually happen naturally once the player market launches.
This I agree with and is 'fair' to everyone.
Example:
If you have a dollar and I have ten dollars and the average wage is .25 per hour then I am much more wealthy than you are because it represents 36 hours of work
Now, if the average wage was five dollars then it represents less than two hours of work.
This effectively has created a way to bridge the gap without 'punishing' some and 'rewarding' others.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1410
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Posted - 2014.04.12 12:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Piraten Hovnoret wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Eddie Rio wrote:i just hope they find a way to do away with the timer,, i dont want to have to log on at specific times each day,, i wish it was instant (or within an hour of sending an attack order.. if ccp find a way to do this i think PC will be so cool,, Really? Do you REALLY want people attacking your districts when you are at work, or when you are sleeping? Have you thought this through at all? If you look at PC just as a way of generating matches, then stick to Pub matches. PC is supposed to be about holding territory, but it is unreasonable to have to have a full team on standby 24 hours a day, so instead we have timbers. Oh man I tryed to not post anything about this. Yes bud the corp should be on standby 24/7 to hold districts. To hold a district should be a megacorps job. So when you go to bed/work/whatever others keeps the fight going. However it should not be so that the attacker have a instant battle after atacking. Idk maybee the battle starts 3 houers after atack order is issued. ( just a sugestion bud ) The current timer system only benefit the defender period. Also this permits some kind of guerrilla tactics. Smal corps can hit and flip districts if a mega corp becomes to big and don't have the manpower to defend everything. It also ads the cool aspect that a mega corp have to deside what to defend what to retake etc etc. So many posts is about I. There is no I in holding districts. And FINNALY what does it matter if you fight to retake a lost district or fighting to defend it? Atleast you are playing the game on a higher and more fun lvl when you are online, not as it is now you loog in and there is a Pc match a cuple of hours away ( or you log in only to do the PC match ). Any one that fail to realise this do not c the big picture and only c the I regards
All this would do is drive people away from the game by turning something that is supposed to be fun into constant work. However, that is not to say that there cannot be a tactic that can whittle away clones on a district through guerrilla attacks before an official attack.
If you make something too much of a hassle, nobody is going to take part in it and it dies out. Forcing players to be bound to their PS3 at all times to defend against possible attacks would be irritating and make many question their desire to be involved at all. All this would do is give people further reason to form large blue donuts to account for an attack during any period of time.
Also, with possible changes to PC using more EVE mechanics, this argument might become entirely moot. Just wait and see what will be advertised with PC 2.0 and then make your suggestions about that.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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