Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
642
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 23:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Right now the progression of swarms is really kind of wonky. Due to adding more high-damage missiles, the swarm launcher progresses at +25% damage intervals rather than the normal +5-10%.
Here is the difference in damage progression from the forge gun and the swarm launcher.
This makes balancing the swarm launcher difficult, as when you balance the prototype swarm launcher damage you then relegate the standard to irrelevance.
My suggestion is to make all swarm launcers fire the same amount of missiles, but to change the damage per missile. Using a -10% dmg per tier approach, change all swarms to 4 missiles with 270 (standard), 300 (advanced) and 330 (prototype) damage per missile.
Here is what the new damage progression would look like. Much better.
Fixing swarms
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
646
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 17:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bump
Fixing swarms
|
ALPHA DECRIPTER
Dragon-Empire
879
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 17:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd love to be able to use STD knives effectively so +1
Scout Tactician
Dance puppets, DANCE!
|
Dauth Jenkins
Ultramarine Corp
344
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 19:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
-1 standard swarms should be support weapons. Nova knives, yes
Sees prototompers...
Sees blueberries start to snipe...
Pulls out commando suit with laser rifle and swarm launcher...
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
649
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 20:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dauth Jenkins wrote:-1 standard swarms should be support weapons. Nova knives, yes
Explain yourself. Why should swarms be support AV instead of AV (what ccp calls it)? Why should swarms not have the same damage progression as the rest of the game? Why are you ok with proto swarm damage but think that standards doing a bit more damage is wrong?
Fixing swarms
|
Dustbunny Durrr
ReD or DeaD
177
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 01:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Dauth Jenkins wrote:-1 standard swarms should be support weapons. Nova knives, yes Explain yourself. Why should swarms be support AV instead of AV (what ccp calls it)? Why should swarms not have the same damage progression as the rest of the game? Why are you ok with proto swarm damage but think that standards doing a bit more damage is wrong? Did you even look at the charts or are you just a troll?
I agree. Secondary (sidearm) weapons should be support weapons, primary weapons (such as the swarm launcher) should not be. |
JIMvc2
UNREAL WARRIORS
57
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 02:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
I strongly disagree about the swarms. Now I feel better than Tanks got a range/ damage nerf. Tankers think they are all badass well no. When I see a tank, put RE in my LAV and watch the Tankers rage.
If you run proto gear, prepare to suffer the consequences. You've been warned.
|
Jaster J
F.T.U. IMMORTAL REGIME
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 02:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
I would like to see them both buffed into usefulness on the battlefield. Im all for this! |
J0LLY R0G3R
Dirt Nap Squad.
683
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 02:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
So you want proto min scouts running the standard knifes? ..eh
++++Gimme Back my SG RoF++++
XD Indeed, chase me friend XD
|
Odigos Ellinas
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 03:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
-1 You guys don't want to balance the game you just want more firepower for yourself. Standar swarms are supposed to be for militia-standar vehicles. That means stander swarm against proto/adv modeules are only support. I personally like the AV/vehicle balance in 1.8. I can solo gunlogis and madrigals with a cbr-7. Its a lot of work but you can do it. |
|
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
1085
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 03:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
As long as neither weapon gets more powerful at proto level, then yes. Absolutely.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
|
DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
4915
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 04:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Not feeling this one.
Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
654
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 05:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Odigos Ellinas wrote:-1 You guys don't want to balance the game you just want more firepower for yourself. Standar swarms are supposed to be for militia-standar vehicles. That means stander swarm against proto/adv modeules are only support. I personally like the AV/vehicle balance in 1.8. I can solo gunlogis and madrigals with a cbr-7. Its a lot of work but you can do it.
What you said is a bald face lie, and I am sick of hearing it. CCP themselves has said AV is AV is AV.
Another guy who did not look at the graphs.
Here is the deal, prototype swarms do 50% more damage than militia/standard swarms do. The only other weapon to suffer such a fate is the nova knife (100% more damage going from std to proto).
This is just horrendeous, and makes abalncing the game difficult.
A militia forge gun does 320 more damage than a militia swarm. The proto forge gun does 120 more damage.
How can you guys justify this at all... even in the slightest?
Fixing swarms
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
654
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 06:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
J0LLY R0G3R wrote:So you want proto min scouts running the standard knifes? ..eh
If they do not value that 20% damage (its like using the proto knives with no bonus), then sure why not.
Fixing swarms
|
Dustbunny Durrr
ReD or DeaD
178
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
JIMvc2 wrote: I strongly disagree about the swarms. Now I feel better than Tanks got a range/ damage nerf. Tankers think they are all badass well no. When I see a tank, put RE in my LAV and watch the Tankers rage.
Can you kill a standard militia tank (unfit) with standard swarms assuming he has half a brain?
No, and that's where the problem lies. |
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
485
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 21:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Odigos Ellinas wrote:-1 You guys don't want to balance the game you just want more firepower for yourself. Standar swarms are supposed to be for militia-standar vehicles. That means stander swarm against proto/adv modeules are only support. I personally like the AV/vehicle balance in 1.8. I can solo gunlogis and madrigals with a cbr-7. Its a lot of work but you can do it. Agreed and that's why I liked this statement .
If this is the case then all standard weapons should be buffed and not what you prefer .
Damage grows in progression and stages , hence the SP's placed into and at each level . If you want more damage then max out that weapon , which would grant you a damage increase .. use damage mods and use the standard .. hell militia to get the results that you are looking for .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
|
TheLastAlive105
G0DS AM0NG MEN D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
4
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 00:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Make standard nova knives 120 damage and keep the other nova knives the same, the swarm launcher idea I Like +1
L3 stick broken.
Oh just you wait cloaked scouts.
I'm getting a new controller.
|
KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
1130
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 01:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Funny, I heard the exact opposite regarding nova knives last night - in game.
And so it goes.
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
658
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 13:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Odigos Ellinas wrote:-1 You guys don't want to balance the game you just want more firepower for yourself. Standar swarms are supposed to be for militia-standar vehicles. That means stander swarm against proto/adv modeules are only support. I personally like the AV/vehicle balance in 1.8. I can solo gunlogis and madrigals with a cbr-7. Its a lot of work but you can do it. Agreed and that's why I liked this statement . If this is the case then all standard weapons should be buffed and not what you prefer . Damage grows in progression and stages , hence the SP's placed into and at each level . If you want more damage then max out that weapon , which would grant you a damage increase .. use damage mods and use the standard .. hell militia to get the results that you are looking for .
So what you are saying is that, like the poster you quoted, you too do not like to read graphs or read anything in the OP?
If you had read the OP, you would see that I am all for damage progression, and that almost everything in-game follows a 5-10% increase in damage per tier, except nova knives and swarms. Nova knives get +66% for std->adv and +33% for ADV->proto, swarms get+25% both times.
The result of this is you either have overpowered proto level stuff, or woefully underpowered standard gear. Since the proto gear seems to be in a decent spot right now, I think we should buff the absolutely horrible standard gear of these two weapons.
Fixing swarms
|
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2142
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 17:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
J0LLY R0G3R wrote:So you want proto min scouts running the standard knifes? ..eh
standard knives on a dragonfly gal scout is serving me pretty well already. If it gets a buff things could just get plain silly.
Gal-mando. Because the best sidearm is a shotgun.
|
|
J0LLY R0G3R
Dirt Nap Squad.
687
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 19:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:J0LLY R0G3R wrote:So you want proto min scouts running the standard knifes? ..eh standard knives on a dragonfly gal scout is serving me pretty well already. If it gets a buff things could just get plain silly.
Ya that's what I'm getting at. Now imagine some1 who has their minja maxed out, and/or has their nova knife prof maxed.
++++Gimme Back my SG RoF++++
XD Indeed, chase me friend XD
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
661
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 21:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
J0LLY R0G3R wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:J0LLY R0G3R wrote:So you want proto min scouts running the standard knifes? ..eh standard knives on a dragonfly gal scout is serving me pretty well already. If it gets a buff things could just get plain silly. Ya that's what I'm getting at. Now imagine some1 who has their minja maxed out, and/or has their nova knife prof maxed.
Nova knife damage w/ and w/o minmitard bonus: Std 360 vs 450 Adv 600 vs 750 Pro 800 vs 1000
The difference is absolutely enormous, and that is not how every other weapon in this game works (aside from the swarms).
Fixing swarms
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
668
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 00:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
bump
Fixing swarms
|
Dauth Jenkins
Ultramarine Corp
398
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 05:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Not a troll, I've been on both sides swarms, before and after 1.8. The problem with reducing all swarms to standard is that, (using proto as an example) instead of 6 missile impacting at 220 (no mods or bonuses) for a total of 1320, 4 missile will be impacting at 330 a missile for a total of 1320. Seems great, right. The problem comes when you put variables in. What if one missile hits a building side. Then you lose 1/4of your total damage, instead of 1/6. Also, when it comes to taking down dropships, the kinetic impact of swarms is severely undervalued. I can't count how many times I've thrown a dropship into a building with swarms.
With the hotfixed hardeners, it entirely likely that this change would make standard swarms very powerful. And if the standard version is as useful as the proto, but at a fraction of the cost, then why use anything else? Swarms are the easiest anti vehicle weapons infantry can use. So they should also require some teamwork (or some time) to work. But if you specialize into it, you can become you squads solo anti vehicle support.
PS: I have only 1 kill with NKs, so I don't consider myself qualified to talk about them.
-Sincerely
--The Dual Swarm Commando
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
671
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 05:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dauth Jenkins wrote:Not a troll, I've been on both sides swarms, before and after 1.8. The problem with reducing all swarms to standard is that, (using proto as an example) instead of 6 missile impacting at 220 (no mods or bonuses) for a total of 1320, 4 missile will be impacting at 330 a missile for a total of 1320. Seems great, right. The problem comes when you put variables in. What if one missile hits a building side. Then you lose 1/4of your total damage, instead of 1/6. Also, when it comes to taking down dropships, the kinetic impact of swarms is severely undervalued. I can't count how many times I've thrown a dropship into a building with swarms.
With the hotfixed hardeners, it entirely likely that this change would make standard swarms very powerful. And if the standard version is as useful as the proto, but at a fraction of the cost, then why use anything else? Swarms are the easiest anti vehicle weapons infantry can use. So they should also require some teamwork (or some time) to work. But if you specialize into it, you can become you squads solo anti vehicle support.
PS: I have only 1 kill with NKs, so I don't consider myself qualified to talk about them.
To your example:
Well I would say 6 in one hand and half a dozen in the other.
Say the 2/6 swarms would have hit the wall, but only 1/4 would hit the wall in that same scenerio, then you are effectively ahead. I am assuming that the difference would wash out in the end.
To the making standard swarms powerful:
Standard swarms will still be a good bit less damaging than standard forge guns, with less ammo, range, and delayed damage. People still use prototype forge guns right?
To add to that, actually that applies to every single weapon in the game. Why would anyone ever use the prototype weapon when you can get 80-90% of the performance from the standard. They do though don't they.
This proposal is just to make it so standard swarms aren't just the most useless form of AV out there, as they currently are.
Nova Knives as well, are next to completely useless at standard level. This is because, like swarms, the damage is balanced at prototype. With such a GIGANTIC disparity between standard and proto, a disparity nothing else in this game mimics, of course the standards are then going to be woefully underpowered.
EDIT: Oh and the fringe benefit is that it will be easier for the PS3 to render, hence less slow-down.
Fixing swarms
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
695
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 05:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bump
Fixing swarms
|
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
6445
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
+1
It allows you to run anything other than PRO Swarm Launchers, and still have a good effect. Just like every other weapon (bar Sniper Rifles) in this game.
The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers"
[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through
-HAND
|
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
6445
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dauth Jenkins wrote: With the hotfixed hardeners, it entirely likely that this change would make standard swarms very powerful. And if the standard version is as useful as the proto, but at a fraction of the cost, then why use anything else? Swarms are the easiest anti vehicle weapons infantry can use. So they should also require some teamwork (or some time) to work. But if you specialize into it, you can become you squads solo anti vehicle support.
PS: I have only 1 kill with NKs, so I don't consider myself qualified to talk about them.
If we balanced strength around ease of use, every vehicle that isn't a Dropship would be OHKed by AV weapons.
The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers"
[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through
-HAND
|
Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1536
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
The problem I have with buffing the lower tier swarms is that you'd buff the free anti armor starter fit which everyone has, where people with 0 SP into swarms will be dealing close to proto level damage against vehicles.
The only way to buff the lower tiers of swarms is to bring back tiers for vehicles. Make proto hulls and mods be what a maxed out fully proto vehicle is like now, then reduce the effectiveness down the tiers. Now you got militia AV that can take out militia vehicles, standard AV against standard vehicles, etc.
You might say that proto vehicles will become invincible to anything but proto AV, but here's where SP makes it balanced. I dedicated so much SP into my proto hull, this it should take someone of similar SP investment to bring me down.
But I think the current balance is all fine. Just balance tank vs tank and then it's all good and CCP can finally give us racial parity for AV and vehicles.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
708
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:The problem I have with buffing the lower tier swarms is that you'd buff the free anti armor starter fit which everyone has, where people with 0 SP into swarms will be dealing close to proto level damage against vehicles.
The only way to buff the lower tiers of swarms is to bring back tiers for vehicles. Make proto hulls and mods be what a maxed out fully proto vehicle is like now, then reduce the effectiveness down the tiers. Now you got militia AV that can take out militia vehicles, standard AV against standard vehicles, etc.
You might say that proto vehicles will become invincible to anything but proto AV, but here's where SP makes it balanced. I dedicated so much SP into my proto hull, this it should take someone of similar SP investment to bring me down.
But I think the current balance is all fine. Just balance tank vs tank and then it's all good and CCP can finally give us racial parity for AV and vehicles.
I have to disagree.
See a completely free suit, the frontline, can melt a proto suit in under 3 seconds. The militia AR that comes with the suit does a pretty decent amount of damage, but it is nerfed in the sustained damage department through smaller clip size.
The starter AV fit is the same. It has only a 2 round clip, this seriously effects it's sustained DPS numbers, making it still much less effective than a standard suit would be.
The way things are balanced now, standard AV has absolutely no chance against militia vehicles, and that is very off putting.
The lower tier swarms will still in the end be less effective than the milita heavy with the militia forge gun. It just wouldn't be 100% useless like it is now.
Fixing swarms
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |