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Posted - 2014.03.28 23:14:00 -
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Let me first apologize to IWS. I originally started writing this as a comment for your thread, CPM Cloak Discussion but found my ramblings much too long for a simple post.
I ask that you just read and not jump to any conclusions with a few lines here and there. IGÇÖm really just having fun writing this so even if you disagree, ease off the hate GǪmaybe? At least keep my dog out of this. She never meant you harmGǪ
TL/DR: Words. Lots of GÇÿem. Scout stuff. Blah blah cloak blah. Nerf blah. What? More words.
Here We Are
There's been a lot of anger over this cloak thing. I get the frustration sort of, as it seems everyone and their brother has spec'd into cloak mode. What I don't get is the vitriol towards something that was already commonplace for scouts (i.e. blindside shotty to the head). You didn't see it coming before, you're not seeing it now, cloak or no cloak. The primary difference IMHO is that so many people are playing with a new toy, of course all of that will only magnify attention on a tactic that before was tolerable, if not simply ignored.
Hm. I guess it's a tough place really, two sides screaming "butthurt" at each other. Lol, wtf? We 12? You, CPM/Devs, have my sympathies in doing what you feel needs to be done to the overall game arc that we as gamers clearly cannot see, while trying to appease two sides that infinitely cry imbalance, all in screeching voices and our fingers buried desperately within our ears, and for most our heads firmly planted elsewhere. It's a shame, really.
I suppose by writing this, I am inviting flame so let me provide you with ammo should you need: I am a scrub. I am that guy hanging out the passenger side of my best friend's ride, trying to holla' at you *cough*. I can't get no love from you? I play when I can, and I do what I can. While I happily admit that I am 1) a casual player at best, and 2) biased towards the scout role, I do feel it is fair to say that my opinions offer a double-edged sword.
My Biases and Counter
I've casually run scout since CB once I realized it was faster. Since the recent SP refund, I've placed all my test fit assaults and logi points into Cal Scout V. I can see you. Clearly I will by default protect my suit against any potential nerf arguments, but please know that in that same default perspective I can also see in-game counters to much of what I see as complaints here. I play scout so I anticipate and recognize scout tactics, and that perspective has helped me immensely in countering this new cloak spam (and it is spam). Lasing scouts in cloak with my commando is fun. I know where to look because they're doing what I would be doing if I were in another fit. The shimmer is confirmation that my assumption was right and only serves to narrow down on where to focus fire. I don't need to adapt because I understand the tactic. I wonder how much could be resolved by simply knowing your enemy----that's more than just a RAtM track. I won't go into the details of how, as that's been thrown out and is already peppering the forums. Yeah, I'm scrub, but guess what? I'm taking out cloaked scouts around me ....with dinner and a movie. What does that say about me? What does that say about you? NB4: scrub scout killing scrubbier scouts. <3
Assault to Assault in straight up wack-a-mole has its place, but that doesn't really work against scouts---at least not with my understanding of what scouts are and should be. Scouts have always tried to flank, blindside, or gank you and have succeeded in doing so without the cloak. Personally though, I think that up until this point scouts were dismissed as more an annoying fly buzzing your picnic. Assault with range has been a tasty flavor for so long, who cares or has time to notice when, if randomly spotted running cover to cover, that fly is popped. Hell, I'll admit that's the scout's fault/problem for being seen, but that's the risk and I feel (I hope?) that most scouts enjoy that risk for the possibility of catching someone off guard. But here we are now, all in cloaks. Well, not just us, but everyone who is bored with the last build standards. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is spamming this thing. Of course everyone else not running scout will notice the ratio of gank deaths skyrocket.
Is it a faulty tool that is drawing attention and bad press, or is it the sheer number of encounters bringing laser focus to an already established scout tactic that until now has been easily dismissed? Yes, that is an honest question. I lean towards the latter, but maybe it is a combination of the two. That's the conversation that I and others like me are happy to be a part off. Just ease off the smack. I know it's the interwebs and all, but surely momma taught us all better manners? For those of you without a momma, I offer a moment of [.............................. ] (that's text silence for those of you playing along at home).
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Irony: Post #35
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Posted - 2014.03.28 23:14:00 -
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Seriously, is it OP or is it only happening more often so the contrast makes it obvious? Pre 1.8 scouts were already sneaking up on you, but only a particular personality type had the patience to bother with the tactic. Sure, cloaks make it easier but I wonder how many scouts care? To be quite honest, I don't think a dedicated scout would be hurt one bit in game play with its removal. From what I see, the argument from dedicated scout-side is mostly over the principle of the matter. Scouts see other scouts in cloak with their eyes because they know what to look for. Minimap sensors help. They are prepared for it due to being intimately familiar with the mindset of a stealth approach. Adaptability is a lovely thing. *hint*
"But I put on a standard SG, cloak, and ran right up and killed someone!" Hey. You could do that in 1.7. You could do that in Closed BETA. Why now are you bothering? Oh, yeah. There's a new toy to play with. I would like to think that most scouts would concede that if there is truly a delay in the de-cloak animation that allows the scout to fire just before cloak is dropped visually from the point of view of the victim, then by all means fix it. I still maintain that you will be shot in the face, or rather the BACK of the face, with or without cloak; and as long as people (general non-scouts) are excited by the idea of *poof ninja*, they will still run cloak for the fun and novelty of it effectively fixing nothing. I'm not sure that THAT is necessarily the problem here.
Ninja Overload
I don't know you, but here let me introduce myself a bit more. I am a child of the 80GÇÖs ninja craze. Yeah, I subscribed to the magazines and fantasized myself ordering the utility belt gear to don my ninja hoodie and split-toe booties, scale my momGÇÖs single-story brick house with those badass foot and palm claws, and then rappelling back down to earth on a nylon cord grappling hook. Ninja stars were the thing to buy at the local MP surplus and smoke bombs were the stuff of dreams. Yeah, we called them GÇ£ninja starsGÇ¥ because we didnGÇÖt know wtf else to call them and if someone HAD actually told us the real name, we would have shanked him then and there for questioning canon doctrine of the local 4th grade ninja clan. It was like the ElkGÇÖs Lodge, but with more surviving members. Oh, and no elk heads =\. I would wake at 4am to watch Ninja III: the Domination on HBO because my mom wouldnGÇÖt let me watch R rated movies. I even accepted Ralph Machio learning Japanese karate from a Hawaiian. Though I was too old for it at the time, I confess to watching the TMNT movies. YeahGǪ plural. My point is, yes. I am pathetic. I can paint the hell out of a fence though, so step back.
Hey. I enjoy playing ninja as much as if not more than the next guy (or gal, or even tranny if thatGÇÖs your thing. Who am I to judge?), but too much of a good thing is still too much. I love it, but I get the frustration. So have a little patience here. I see a partial solution already seeping through the forums like buttery goodness without having to change a damn thing. LetGÇÖs be clear here: itGÇÖs not been 5 business days since release, let alone a weekend for endurance testing. IGÇÖve seen a few posts already hinting at scout-on-scout hate crimes, and I for one am excited by the idea of a sub-spec of scout-hunter scouts emerging from the chaos. Remember that personality type that I mentioned earlier---the type that gets off on patience, stealth, and ambush while running constant risk of being seen or caught out in the open? Yeah, that group now has a whole new playing field to exploit. No, I donGÇÖt mean running cloak to **** in your cornflakes. Rather, I believe to stalk those who have jumped over from assault and logi fits to abuse cloak just for the sake of abusing cloak---pissing in their cornflakes before they get a chance to even unzip for yours. Cornflake pissing, that is.
(Note: funny that **** is edited while pissing isn't)
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Irony: Post #35
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Posted - 2014.03.28 23:15:00 -
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Time breeds evolution and I see that weGÇÖre on the edge of an evolutionary step for the hunter-scout. If itGÇÖs too much for you to adapt by pulling your mindset from direct conflict encounters to recognize the potential for scout-based guerrilla warfare then just sit back and watch what happens as those dedicated scouts take arm against the tourists. Hey, you can include me as one of those tourists as IGÇÖm merely a casual player anyway. IGÇÖd be happy to know that my death was part of a class revolution of sorts. I WANT to see scouts stalking down other scouts before that scout can ambush another suit class. Put them down and beat them with a wet noodle. Shame them for daring. Squad up in Cal Proto with no other objective in mind than to assassinate cloaked posers. Once that ball really gets to rolling, who knows what might come in regards to balance. Some may give up cloak and return to assaults to kill that hunter-scout that ruined their cloaked fun. Who knows? ItGÇÖs not been a week yet and alreadyGǪ.. eh.
Back to Point
So here we are trying to compromise a list of fixes. Is it broken?
Shooting from Cloak
I give on the animation speed to attack time. I canGÇÖt see it from my interface but if there is a bit of a delay on your side watching me de-cloak and you taking damage before the animation transition has finished then sure. Fix it. I am not trying to be a smart ass here, but if cloaked and you canGÇÖt see youGÇÖre attacker, how can you tell if he is firing before or after cloak drops? If you can actually see the transition then why not just shoot at the animated mess? ThatGÇÖs chicken or the egg stuff right there. Has anyone tested this with two players facing each other, one cloaked with test fire? So are you thinking to jam the gun for 1-3 seconds so that it is impossible to fire, or are you looking to shorten the animation of de-cloak to match the speed of a normal weapon swap allowing for full fire once the swap has been made?
Cloak Removal on Damage
No. But IGÇÖd be fine with a smidge more cloak interference with that honeycomb grid flaring just a bit more when shot. Someone mentioned predator before and I like that reference.
Flux and Damage Disruption
Allowing flux to disrupt the cloak visibility momentarily? I actually like that as a strategy. We freely toss them around corners, into rooms, and objectives if we think someone is there, so why not let that be a sort of flushing out for cloaks too? I donGÇÖt think cloak should be dropped, just disrupted---while our shields are depleted. Just keep in mind there should be a fine balance between weapons fire and flux disruption. The flux should just be enough to flush him out. If you miss the quick visual cue, oh well because heGÇÖs invisible again now and youGÇÖre in trouble. If you fire on the cloak, then the glimmer should be the same as when running with a few random honeycomb spikes in visibility for the duration of shots taken.
I also do not think it necessary to dedicate a grenade spot to just disrupting cloaks. That's too demanding. Just let it play off flux and maybe later, for the logi class, there might be a dedicated equipment item as some have suggested to create a defensible area that disrupts or even removes cloak in proximity. That could work assuming later cloak builds offer more specialized tactics as the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy guy described. I'll find the post and link sooner or later.
Cloak Noise
From first person perspective, I absolutely love the sound dampening. We have sensors already and passive scan, so it might be fun to turn the ambient volume down a bit more and increase breathing volume or something to add to disorientation. That would take a bit more away from cloaked immediate situational awareness? If someone is firing (and missing) on us at range beyond our sensor/minimap view then we wouldnGÇÖt hear the missed GÇ£tingGÇ¥ of shots so common from sniper fire. That would be a subtle addition of risk, but one that seems cool and abstract.
Brick Tanking
This isnGÇÖt the cloakGÇÖs fault and belongs in a thread all of its own as this is really a huge problem that just happens to overlap some of the perceived issues with cloak at the moment.
Yeah. So by now you have my take on things. Agree or not, thatGÇÖs fine. IGÇÖm just throwing it out there because it seems everyone else is b!tching and moaning like a cat in heat so why not. I canGÇÖt throw a shoe at you, so this is all I got.
I wish you all the best, and hope this finds resolution soon. IGÇÖd prefer it be from the player base, as thereGÇÖs great promise in the idea of scout vs. scout cannibalism----thatGÇÖs next level Lion King stuff right there. Elton John sh!t, yo. (circle of lifeGǪ. Come on! Have I got to spell everything out to you?!)
Long story, short: patience, babycakes. patience. Oh. The cookies are gone. I had to eat something while writing this novel. =\
;)
- Me.
Irony: Post #35
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Th3 Hunt3d
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2014.03.29 01:53:00 -
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It looks like it was to long for most of the player base to read ^ anyway, i agree, the cloak is very balanced in my opinion, it especially helps with a nova knife build. It is just that the medium and heavy suits for used to being able to obliterate any scours that were unlucky enough to join a match, EVER, and now that the scouts stand a chance to defend themselves, everybody calls them OP |
Kein-Engel
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
61
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Posted - 2014.03.29 02:42:00 -
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I agree with everything. Too many people are crying OP right now when most people haven't had a chance to try it out yet. 90% of the player base doesn't have decent situational awareness and the cloak just makes it even more obvious. Even if you take the cloak, the people that played scouts will still play them and skill murder you while never being seen. Can it use some balancing? Yeah, the PG and CPU cost could probably increase to discourage non-scouts form using it even more.
On a side note, the heavies really don't need a health nerf. If they get one, they will just cry about scouts even more, and while i like the taste of tears, I'd rather have a decent challenge. |
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Posted - 2014.03.29 07:22:00 -
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Quick bump for the continent over. Good afternoon, y'all! Good night for everyone over here still up though.
- me.
Irony: Post #35
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RemingtonBeaver
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
402
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Posted - 2014.03.29 07:26:00 -
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I would actually like if my vision was obscured while clacked.
De-clacking would look like coming up out of water.
Oh my god, I think I slightly turned myself on.
We can pickle that.
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:38:00 -
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Ha, that might be kinda neat actually. Like some sort of phase shift effect. The audio is already delayed, so to speak. Visual blurring would be kind of fun a la LotR when Frodo puts his ring on ;) Dunno how practical that would be programmatically, but neat concept :)
^ off topic, nice Portlandia reference.
- me.
Irony: Post #35
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