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Making Assault suits a meaningful choice and how.

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Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 749	Posted - 2014.03.28 18:25:00 - [1] - Quote I posted this as a response to another thread, but I'd really like to hear some directed feedback, so I went ahead and posted this thread. Feedback welcome! Here's a way to better define roles of the suits, WITHOUT arbitrary fitting limits AND promoting certain play styles. Each suit should have a place, a unique role among the other suits that make them an interesting choice to use them or not. Here's a solution, since currently, Assault suit use is marginalized for overall, and sometimes flat-out better choices: Assault suits should be the best at using light weapons. To accomplish this, they would get a 20-25% role bonus to the damage of light weapons. This role bonus being a flat amount to the suit is sp-independent, so it doesn't penalize new players just coming into the game, and the current bonuses would stick to make Assault suits have more "life" of their weapons. Then, light weapons across the board would be nerfed by the same amount. It gives Assault suits the same power as currently, but it disincentivizes the use of light weapons on sentinel suits, while making Assault suits a compelling choice for light weapon use (due to the power curve and bonuses granted). Assault suits are moderately fast suits with medium survivability. Commandos would see a slight damage nerf here, yes, but I think the tradeoff for running a Commando suit is that you get "versatility of weapons" and durability. You can pick between two powerful light weapons (not making any sacrifice by using a sidearm) and you're tankier than the Assault suit. So, that defines the Commando vs assault role. Commando tank and speed remain as on live. Scouts would see a nerf to their damage, as well, but that comes because you can innately sneak around better and you have the element of surprise. Scouts trade damage for better hacking potential, ease of travelling under cloak and gain the element of surprise (and stealth!) on the radar. This solves two problems: Scouts no longer have the "burst surprise" that they currently do, which promotes more smart decision making on the part of the scout and overall improves the quality of life when fighting a scout, since there's slightly more wiggle room if the scout plays poorly. Logistics would have a damage nerf as well, but of course Logi brings so much to the table that when you're running logi, you shouldn't primarily be a slayer anyway. Versatility of equipment is what a Logi is there for; not slaying. Logi would continue to be the primary "support backbone" of a team, having the same bonuses as currently. They'd be slightly tankier than an Assault suit (as a better recognition of their hazardous role on the battleground), move slower (as they currently do). Slot layouts would have to be adjusted as well, which we are getting a future patch anyway. Sentinels of course would have a nerf with light weapons, but Heavy weapon damage is retained, further defining their role of "point defense." Additionally, because there are no arbitrary fitting restrictions, a heavy could decide to run a light weapon, but he would have reduced base damage and the most tank (and damage resistance) to compensate. Speed and slot layouts are unchanged, as these suits were recently rebalanced. With these changes, roles are defined, and each suit has trade-offs for what it runs. There's no arbitrary fitting restrictions, so people are free to run Sentinel RR suits, but at a cost of base damage. Assault suits have the most light weapon potential, moderate speed, but it comes at the cost of being visible all the time. Your thoughts are appreciated! >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Gadz Tyrr Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 4	Posted - 2014.03.28 19:25:00 - [2] - Quote There's some pretty good thoughts here, but don't assault suits already have bonuses to light weapons?
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 755	Posted - 2014.03.30 20:08:00 - [3] - Quote Seriously, flat nerfing weapons (and buffing the Assault suit) is about the best way to solve many of the issues, from OP scout suits to underutilized Assault suits. Think about it: Scout suits would be less powerful, so issues with decloak-one shot would be diminished. Also, it makes more sense for Scout cloaking. Assault suits would be better used, because they would do 25% MORE damage with light weapons than ANY other suit. A reason to use Assaults. Logi Slayers would be WAY less incentivized, since they'd do 25% LESS damage than an Assault suit. Sentinel suits running light weapons would do 25% LESS damage than an Assault suit but gets WAY more tank to compensate. [*] Commandos do 15% LESS damage than Assault, but they get to pick out of TWO light weapons and better tank. If anything, current 1.8 Commandos are essentially "Heavy (medium) Assault suits." >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4881	Posted - 2014.03.30 20:16:00 - [4] - Quote 20-25% more damage? No. Here's my idea: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1985345#post1985345 Add extra skills to the Assault suits to make them more versatile and better at tanking/regeneration. Check it out. It's a pretty simple concept. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 756	Posted - 2014.03.30 20:32:00 - [5] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: 20-25% more damage? It'd help if you'd read the op. You'd see that it's not 25% more damage. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Eric Del Carlo Inner.Hell 92	Posted - 2014.03.30 20:42:00 - [6] - Quote As a scout, I rely on alpha damage, and I mainly use the shotgun. Also, I'm not exactly brick tanked either (run biotics and e-war). If shotguns were to be nerfed again then targets would take +2 shots to kill, even if I had the element of surprise. Shotguns already had their RoF bonus removed, nerfing it's damage more would only break it at this point. I'm not entirely disagreeing with this post, giving assaults a bonus to weapon damage might work, but a flat nerf to all weapons including alpha damage weapons (shotguns, plasma cannons, etc.) is a bad idea GÖà 0uter.Heaven ... Inner.Hell GÖà ßâÜ(a¦át¢èa¦áßâÜ) ... Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼ pâÄ( pé£-pé£pâÄ) ... (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+ ... Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼ pâÄ( pé£-pé£pâÄ) ... Gö¼GöÇGö¼n++ n+¦ /(.Gûí. \n+ë
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2499	Posted - 2014.03.30 20:44:00 - [7] - Quote Vespasian Andendare wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: 20-25% more damage? It'd help if you'd read the op. You'd see that it's not 25% more damage. That would utterly destroy the Commando. ak.0 4 LYFE CCP GIB LANCE TURRET PLOX LET ME MELEE PEOPLE WITH MY STEED
pagl1u M Maphia Clan Corporation 495	Posted - 2014.03.30 20:45:00 - [8] - Quote Ahahahaha +25%dmg ahahhah
Canari Elphus Dirt Nap Squad. 1312	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:04:00 - [9] - Quote Here were my thoughts for changes based on what we currently have in 1.8 Assaults Role Bonus - 10% to effectiveness of damage modifiers per level (remember, this is a percentage of a percentage) Racial Bonuses - Current bonus to racial weapons Scouts Current bonuses are fine when you make assaults better slayers. Logis Role Bonus - Current reduction to equipment Racial Bonus - Current bonus plus 50% of the bonus of allied Faction. Example: Amarr - 100% bonus to uplinks and 50% bonus that caldari get to hives Gallente - 100% bonus to scanners and 50% bonus that Min get to repair tools Heavies - I think their bonuses are fine with resistances to damage as they are meant to be tanks over slayers. Commando Role Bonus - damage bonus to racial weapons only Racial Bonus - Assault bonus for racial weapon and 50% bonus to allied weapon (similar to logis) Canari Elphus for CPM1
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns 70	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:05:00 - [10] - Quote **** that noise. Absolutely not. I specced into the Minmatar Commando for one reason and one reason only: the damage bonus to my two favorite weapons, the mass driver and ACR. I'm no more tanky than a regular assault suit. The only way I would be ok with this is if we were given another dropsuit command respec...an eventuality I find highly unlikely. I also just hit proto on my mass driver and I close to proto on my CR. I also spent millions stocking up on them. Why? Because I get a fat damage bonus to them now! Commando suits finally got some love and are in a solid place right now. Don't you dare take that away from us. Yes, assaults need fixed-but not at the expense of the commando class. Find another solution. No disrespect meant here at all, your post is obviously clearly thought out. But I think your proposed solution is rather unfair to those of us who wish to play a support class that can still dish out the pain. Because that's the role a commando currently fills to perfection.

Patrick57 6430	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:09:00 - [11] - Quote I disagree with your Scout thoughts. Yes, Scouts are supposed to hack **** and be stealthy. However, how can a Scout get in, hack something, and get out if they can't do enough damage to kill people? The nerf to Rifles to make Assaults viable- ok, that's fine. Nerf the Shotgun and therefore taking away what little stopping power the Scout has to infiltrate points and hack them? Not ok.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 180	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:11:00 - [12] - Quote Balancing is much easier than most believe. Commandos - the class at the moment has good strengths, good weakness and its racial bonus is balanced between its class and with other classes. I would like to see commandos running a AV launcher as their second weapon. So a boost to their racial weapons, and a boost to AV damage (via launchers) would make the class perfect. Logistics received an nerf in 1.8 which hurt the overall effectiveness of true logi's but did remove most of the slayer Logi types, which after all was the goal. They are highly prized for their role, but limiting their ability to run a variety of equipment does hurt them slightly. I don't have a problem with their slot layout but i do have a problem with logi's not being required to run t least their racial equipment in a locked equipment slot. Sentinels fix again is simple, just remove their ability to run light weapons in the heavy weapon slot. Their eHP is fine, their role is fine, everything is balanced outside of the light weapon usage. I don't think HMG are balanced but it works with the class just fine at the moment. Scouts again is a quick fix. Lose cloaks and provide Amarr scouts with a complex version of their stamina/stamina regen racial skill. I would like to see Min Adv suit have more PG (2 base is fine). Scouts got a boost in 1.8 and cloaks are not required for scouts to be balanced or highly competitive or highly useful in a match. Snipers, if they picked the Cal commando they should be just fine. There needs to be more sniper friendly areas and better sight lines on some maps. Assault, here is where the mess occurs. There are plenty of options to boost modules, rof, reload, and adding a 3rd grenade for them. I don't see anything wrong with the Amarr bonus to its weapon but they do need more, so well as all other assaults. Scouts are not suppose to be slayers, assault class is. If that means lowering weapon kick, increasing reload speeds, and providing them with more offensive tools then that needs to occur. Provide cal with bonus to shields modules, provide Amarr with bonus to armor mods, provide gal with boost to reactive/reps, and provide min with slightly more speed and a bonus to sidearm damage as well as increased clip size. Assault class are suppose to be slayers, scout are suppose to be objective and strategic movement based, commandos should have AV boost, logi's aren't struggling but aren't exactly par yet. Sentinels will be fine using heavy weapons only. Every class is balanced, commandos can keep AV in check as well. Scouts losing cloaks turns off easy mode and makes them skill based again. Everything will be fine with a few tweaks. I agree with many of your points, I've also seen some threads with great assault bonus suggestions which I've forgotten. I would also like to see scouts (specifically Amarr receive bonus to hacking objectives which belong to the other team by rewarding additional SP for their saboteur role). every class is easy to fix with a quic/hot fix. Although assaults need some serious help t the moment.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 2722	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:16:00 - [13] - Quote I don't agree with any damage nerf to any of the suits (however I would like some mechanic to discourage heavies from using light weapons). Assault suits should be the slayer suits and should have a damage bonus or ROF bonus to light weapons. If assault suits were given that ROF bonus that CCP initially proposed, we would see more assault slayers, as we should. Right now, there is no real incentive for killers to use assault suits. You are still more effective in a logi suit or scout suit right now. Even the heavy suits have bonuses to encourage players to kill with heavy suits. Logis got their bonus to encourage support players to play their roles, scouts as well. Assault suits are the only ones that do not have the incentive for assault players to use those suits. weRideNDie2getha since 2010 (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 488	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:24:00 - [14] - Quote Something is wrong with my assault suit!? Quick, show me where this blemish is, we will spit shine it at once! In all honesty, I like my assault suit more in 1.8 than I did previously. What's the problem? I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
Brynjar Reko Providence Guard Templis CALSF 44	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:26:00 - [15] - Quote As a scout player this is utterly... reasonable. I mean maybe closer to the 12-17% range, and I think commandos would need more health to compensate (say somewhere a bit shy of nerfed sentinel health) but we could also do withot the sentinel nerf, as assaults could act as the nerf, providing a bit of a counter to bricked heavies, while heavies are still as formidable against scouts and logis and can still stand up to vehicles to whatever extent they currently do. I see the complaints about alpha damage but too much alpha damage after uncloaking is a problem right now, and even a 25% nerf really only amounts to <1 more shotgun hit to kill your foe if you're already doing it in 2 shots (depends on whether your second shot does currently does the killing damage plus some change) And really one extra shot is not so significant that we can't adapt. Scouts can still brick tank and (possibly barring amaar) can fill an assault like role and trade off damage for a very handy passive. It would probably still be worth it to trade the damage and the wee EHP difference to be a bit faster with near-perfect 50m passive scans (or whatever the distance is with rank 5 in suits and scanning radius) I can forsee an issue in sniper rifles, I would need someone that is a more dedicated sniper to weigh in whether they use other suits and whether a nerf like this would add another shot to their killing (a much bigger deal than cqc scouts, a sniper's options are tactically limited to "keep shooting and kill" while we can hide, dodge, retreat and take a different angle of attack, cloak, etc.)
Heimdallr69 Heaven's Lost Property 1970	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:52:00 - [16] - Quote Gadz Tyrr wrote: There's some pretty good thoughts here, but don't assault suits already have bonuses to light weapons? Yeah man cuz hip fire is a great bonus in this game.. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11909	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:53:00 - [17] - Quote 20-25% is massive. I would agree with lower numbers, but that's gigantic. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 250	Posted - 2014.03.30 21:57:00 - [18] - Quote Can we hold off on Assault/Medium buffs and balances until we get the new slot layouts/fitting stats? And I really don't want to hear about new buffs/nurfs until the fresh batch of bugs are ironed out of 1.8 The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
Heimdallr69 Heaven's Lost Property 1970	Posted - 2014.03.30 22:02:00 - [19] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't agree with any damage nerf to any of the suits (however I would like some mechanic to discourage heavies from using light weapons). Assault suits should be the slayer suits and should have a damage bonus or ROF bonus to light weapons. If assault suits were given that ROF bonus that CCP initially proposed, we would see more assault slayers, as we should. Right now, there is no real incentive for killers to use assault suits. You are still more effective in a logi suit or scout suit right now. Even the heavy suits have bonuses to encourage players to kill with heavy suits. Logis got their bonus to encourage support players to play their roles, scouts as well. Assault suits are the only ones that do not have the incentive for assault players to use those suits. Agreed but I must admit I like my reload bonus Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4568	Posted - 2014.03.30 22:04:00 - [20] - Quote Assaults are shock-troops, which are disposable. Just lower the cost of them. I am your scan error.

Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven 1656	Posted - 2014.03.30 22:14:00 - [21] - Quote Honestly Assaults would be fine if they buffed the CPU/PG accordingly to not force us to use CPU/PG enhancers to get a decent proto fit. Next they need to address the base suit stats. It makes no sense that Assaults have worse regen/regen delays/rep than Logis/Scouts. Increasing health wouldn't make sense because that ventures us into Heavy frame territory. Speed doesn't make sense because that's Scout territory. Regen / delays / rep make the most sense as an Assault because it strikes that balance between heavy and light in being able to sustain slightly more firepower than the light frames but less than the heavy frames, but is able to get back on its feet faster than either. In my opinion, an Assault is a frontline class that is pushing the line of battle. It doesn't make sense that they have the highest downtime of all the suits (except sentinel) in terms of recovering from damage. IMO, base stats for the suits should be changed as follows: Caldari Assault: 5s / 6s / 30 delay / depleted / recharge --> 3s / 4s / 40 Minmatarr Assault: 6s / 8s / 25 --> 4s / 5s / 35 Gallente Assault: 7s / 10s / 20 -> 5s / 6s / 25 and 2 armor/s -> 6-8 armor/s Amarr Assault: 7s / 10s / 20 --> 5s / 6s / 25 and 0 armor/s -> 4-6 armor/s Next give the Assaults bonuses that keep in line with the design philosophy with the light/heavy frames. For example, all the Scout racial bonuses do not require you to use and module/equipment to make use of them. Similar with the Sentinel. Commandos are a bit different but their bonuses while applying to specific weapons give distinctly measurable DPS increases. 25% dispersion and 25% reload do not directly translate into any measurable increase in killing power. Let me play you the song of my people!
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 380	Posted - 2014.03.30 22:28:00 - [22] - Quote Lmao @ OP's idea on scouts. They finally just became effective across the board and he wants them cut back down to where they were. Scouts rely on sneak alpha damage attacks. I use a CR with my scout because I use distance flanking. I'm already at a severe disadvantage from far less HP (no I don't brick tank). If I cannot kill the suit I'm targeting with superior accuracy before they can turn and fire at me, most of the time I'm going to be dead. The last thing I need is another damage nerf. Heavies do need to be fixed. As far as I'm concerned, sentinel suits should now be locked in terms of weapon slots to heavy slots only. The release and adjustment of the rest of the commando suits now fill the role of light weapon heavy suits. Although we should have the rest of heavy weapons released. Always the last person to leave. Always the one cleaning up people's messes.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 182	Posted - 2014.03.30 22:48:00 - [23] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: Lmao @ OP's idea on scouts. They finally just became effective across the board and he wants them cut back down to where they were. Scouts rely on sneak alpha damage attacks. I use a CR with my scout because I use distance flanking. I'm already at a severe disadvantage from far less HP (no I don't brick tank). If I cannot kill the suit I'm targeting with superior accuracy before they can turn and fire at me, most of the time I'm going to be dead. The last thing I need is another damage nerf. Heavies do need to be fixed. As far as I'm concerned, sentinel suits should now be locked in terms of weapon slots to heavy slots only. The release and adjustment of the rest of the commando suits now fill the role of light weapon heavy suits. Although we should have the rest of heavy weapons released. Scouts became effective? You serious? You're a ***** joke if you think scouts couldn't excel before cloaks were available. You must be a piece of scout if you can't flank or sneak behind players without using a cloak. Use strategy, movement, map knowledge, and be selective on targets... Or you can just be a piece of and use a cloak to gain the upper hand. Cloaks offer players an offensive advantage their don't deserve while lowering the risk that their poor gameplay and decisions are punished. They are a crutch used to make poor gameplay a viable option. Scouts are not slayers, scouts shouldn't be given an easy mode equipment, and poor gameplay should never be rewards. Low risk, high reward, no drawback... Seems like cloaks are covering up for your gameplay and you love your new crutch. The scout is suppose to use movement to get the drop on players, this does not include being able to 1v1 a high eHP tank with your CR and **** gameplay. A cloak is not require to be able to sneak up on a heavy and use an RE, nor is it required to use a flux, nor is it required to use your movement skills to keep circling around a heavy. You must be a stupid to think a scout should be able to take down a heavy 1v1 using poor gameplay and strategy. Maybe it's why you love cloaks so much, they provide you with advantages you don't deserve. Scouts rely on alpha damage? Yea, you and your CR? Please, scouts rely on strategy and movement. Strategy to move around the map, create opportunities for you to successfully engage and win gun fights, and to be aware of your surroundings. Movement, how fast and skillfully you can move, while requiring the knowledge to choose the right path, and the skill to pick the right angles of attack, and of course the speed to close the gap on your prey. Then you can use NK, SG or other weapons to take them down quickly, but always using movement to counter their spin-and spray tactics. A cloak is not required to be successful, it is actually an items used to support and reward poor gameplay. No longer do scouts need to use skill and strategy to play smart defensively and offensively. But now cloaks cover up poor decisions and are a crutch beloved by their u skilled users.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2317	Posted - 2014.03.30 22:57:00 - [24] - Quote No offence but god no. Giving Assaults a 25% damage nbonus is isane. The best way to fix. 1) Give Assaults 8 Mod Slots 2) Give Assaults 1 Light Weapon + 2 Sidearms (Optional) 3) Give Assaults an Arbitrary Bonus to ALL weapons, then an additional Racial Bonus to Racial Weapons Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 1079	Posted - 2014.03.30 23:03:00 - [25] - Quote Would sidearms have this same damage reduction? Because leaving them as is would mean that the light weapons do less damage than their smaller and weaker counterparts. And if they were needed, then they'd be next to useless, as Brick tanking would be even harder for them to combat. A good idea, but it would hurt things even more than they are. Best PVE idea I've seen. Fixed link.
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns 70	Posted - 2014.03.30 23:06:00 - [26] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Balancing is much easier than most believe. Commandos - the class at the moment has good strengths, good weakness and its racial bonus is balanced between its class and with other classes. I would like to see commandos running a AV launcher as their second weapon. So a boost to their racial weapons, and a boost to AV damage (via launchers) would make the class perfect. I may have misunderstood this when I first read it...you're not suggesting we be locked into an AV weapon as our second weapon, correct? Just suggesting that we get a damage bonus to them? In that case I fully support the idea, and could probably then be persuaded to put more points in AV (although swarms still aren't that great right now, I will put points into them when I get some SP to spare). Locking our second slot to an AV weapon would be awful, though.
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns 70	Posted - 2014.03.30 23:10:00 - [27] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: Here were my thoughts for changes based on what we currently have in 1.8 Assaults Role Bonus - 10% to effectiveness of damage modifiers per level (remember, this is a percentage of a percentage) Racial Bonuses - Current bonus to racial weapons Scouts Current bonuses are fine when you make assaults better slayers. Logis Role Bonus - Current reduction to equipment Racial Bonus - Current bonus plus 50% of the bonus of allied Faction. Example: Amarr - 100% bonus to uplinks and 50% bonus that caldari get to hives Gallente - 100% bonus to scanners and 50% bonus that Min get to repair tools Heavies - I think their bonuses are fine with resistances to damage as they are meant to be tanks over slayers. Commando Role Bonus - damage bonus to racial weapons only Racial Bonus - Assault bonus for racial weapon and 50% bonus to allied weapon (similar to logis) +1


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