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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
971
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Posted - 2014.03.16 16:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would wager that most Dust mercs are not in PC active cops or are not getting paid by a corp. So all we have for ISK generation is pub matches. I would categorize myself as an OK player. Usually I'm around 5th to 7th on the final board. I cannot consistently run advanced gear in matches and not lose ISK. The only way I can generate net ISK is if I run standard gear or lower. I know I'm not the only one with this problem, now if closed beta vets who are mediocre at the game can't generate positive ISK during the pub grind I can't begin to fathom how much a new player struggles, which in turn is bad for growing the game.
Then, to make matters worse, you have players in PC farming corps who don't even have fits lower than proto because they are so flush with ISK. So they are getting an even bigger slice of the pub match payout usually and they don't even need the cash! Its not a sustainable model for game growth and player retention.
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
1014
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Posted - 2014.03.16 16:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not gonna happen.
Free 2 Play and CCP/Shanghai has been reducing Pub Match ISK payout for the last several months.
A cynic might think that someone was interested in forcing players to spend AUR to reduce the grind of earning ISK. Hard to figure out the reasoning since grinding for SP is the basis of the entire Dust experience.
The best solution is to find the cheapest suit you can use and survive in then stick to it. Die less, earn more and grind, baby grind. Your mileage will vary, sad to say.
And so it goes.
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State
1269
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Posted - 2014.03.16 18:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
No one's supposed to run above ADV in pubs with any kind of konsistency, so you're not that far off going slightly negative with full ADV fits. I can barely maintain an equilibrium with my ADV fit, but only if i'm carefull not to overcommit.
The problem, as you rightly pointed out, is outside funding and a general lack of significant ISK sinks for vets. This means that losing fits doesn't matter to them since they don't care about the ISK and there's no important use for PRO outside of PC anyways, so they're just used for k/d padding.
Increasing payouts, however, will do nothing to solve this issue. It will only further diliute the initial purpose of tiered gear and makes not running PRO, when you have the skills, even less justifiable.
Either cost or power scaling across the tiers, specifically prototype, needs to be adjusted. Frankly, doubling your eHP should either increase price by three orders of magnitude or not be possible at all.
Edit: One last thing. Stompers do get a good chunk of the payouts but, with every occasional death, they also contribute the largest part to the pool.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
829
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Posted - 2014.03.16 19:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:No one's supposed to run above ADV in pubs with any kind of konsistency, so you're not that far off going slightly negative with full ADV fits. I can barely maintain an equilibrium with my ADV fit, but only if i'm carefull not to overcommit. The problem, as you rightly pointed out, is outside funding and a general lack of significant ISK sinks for vets. This means that losing fits doesn't matter to them since they don't care about the ISK and there's no important use for PRO outside of PC anyways, so they're just used for k/d padding. Increasing payouts, however, will do nothing to solve this issue. It will only further dilute the initial purpose of tiered gear and makes not running PRO, when you have the skills, even less justifiable. Either cost or power scaling across the tiers, specifically prototype, needs to be adjusted. Frankly, doubling your eHP should either increase price by three orders of magnitude or not be possible at all. Edit: One last thing. Stompers do get a good chunk of the payouts but, with every occasional death, they also contribute the largest part to the pool. Just out of curiosity, who do you think you are? I am a CB Vet and understand the problem quite well. Without having the blocks of planets some of the big corps have and being able to pay your players for their participation in corp, there is no way to get isk other than Pubs, meanwhile this wouldn't be a problem if Eve had more of an impact on Dust and vice versa, supporting one another rather than just being in separate universes with a minute tangible link.
What do we need, more isk. How should we be able to get it? By pub payouts, by selling salvage, by doing trades and some manner of isk generation other than what we have now. Hurry up CCP...fix this broken game.
LogiGod earns his pips
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deepfried salad gilliam
Sanguine Knights
522
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Posted - 2014.03.16 19:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
whats the point in isk if you can always afford what you want
module poll
stuff for alts
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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
972
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Posted - 2014.03.16 23:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
deepfried salad gilliam wrote:whats the point in isk if you can always afford what you want
Being able to afford proto all the time I agree you shouldn't be able to do that, but to crawl up in ISK running standard or lose it in advanced is too much. I'm of the cynical sort that can't help think it sells aurum but its not sustainable for game growth, as are many other aspects of the game currently
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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Louis Domi
Pradox One Proficiency V.
43
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Posted - 2014.03.16 23:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:I would wager that most Dust mercs are not in PC active cops or are not getting paid by a corp. So all we have for ISK generation is pub matches. I would categorize myself as an OK player. Usually I'm around 5th to 7th on the final board. I cannot consistently run advanced gear in matches and not lose ISK. The only way I can generate net ISK is if I run standard gear or lower. I know I'm not the only one with this problem, now if closed beta vets who are mediocre at the game can't generate positive ISK during the pub grind I can't begin to fathom how much a new player struggles, which in turn is bad for growing the game.
Then, to make matters worse, you have players in PC farming corps who don't even have fits lower than proto because they are so flush with ISK. So they are getting an even bigger slice of the pub match payout usually and they don't even need the cash! Its not a sustainable model for game growth and player retention.
Made a new character this morning been running ambush using Assualt A-I with scr i have 2.6 mill isk... i dont see why ppl have hard times with this even my main running adv only has been getting a steadily increasing amount of isk (think hes at 55 mill +) and he doesnt get isk from corp.
although id be lying if i said dont give me more money in my pocket, sooo i agree that there should be more isk!! :) |
Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2008
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Posted - 2014.03.16 23:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:deepfried salad gilliam wrote:whats the point in isk if you can always afford what you want Being able to afford proto all the time I agree you shouldn't be able to do that, but to crawl up in ISK running standard or lose it in advanced is too much. I'm of the cynical sort that can't help think it sells aurum but its not sustainable for game growth, as are many other aspects of the game currently
With an average advanced fitting you can die about 6 to 7 times in every match and still make a small profit. It's pretty good if you ask me. So when you want to run advanced gear without losing ISK maybe stop sucking so much?
Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State
1270
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Posted - 2014.03.16 23:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:No one's supposed to run above ADV in pubs with any kind of konsistency, so you're not that far off going slightly negative with full ADV fits. I can barely maintain an equilibrium with my ADV fit, but only if i'm carefull not to overcommit. The problem, as you rightly pointed out, is outside funding and a general lack of significant ISK sinks for vets. This means that losing fits doesn't matter to them since they don't care about the ISK and there's no important use for PRO outside of PC anyways, so they're just used for k/d padding. Increasing payouts, however, will do nothing to solve this issue. It will only further dilute the initial purpose of tiered gear and makes not running PRO, when you have the skills, even less justifiable. Either cost or power scaling across the tiers, specifically prototype, needs to be adjusted. Frankly, doubling your eHP should either increase price by three orders of magnitude or not be possible at all. Edit: One last thing. Stompers do get a good chunk of the payouts but, with every occasional death, they also contribute the largest part to the pool. Just out of curiosity, who do you think you are? I am a CB Vet and understand the problem quite well. Without having the blocks of planets some of the big corps have and being able to pay your players for their participation in corp, there is no way to get isk other than Pubs, meanwhile this wouldn't be a problem if Eve had more of an impact on Dust and vice versa, supporting one another rather than just being in separate universes with a minute tangible link. What do we need, more isk. How should we be able to get it? By pub payouts, by selling salvage, by doing trades and some manner of isk generation other than what we have now. Hurry up CCP...fix this broken game. I'm a Mordu's Legion vet, playing since around august 2012 and decidedly corp-less most of the time. Not that any of it matters...
Since running ADV almost all day long is pretty achievable already, increasing Pub Payouts enough to further make a difference against stompers will just establish full-PRO as the undeniable base line for even casual play. This means new players have no business even firing up the game until they aquired some 8m SP for a full, well supported proto fit, assuming they actually get it right the first time. It might help you, me and OP who have mostly enough SP but not quite the ISK, but will make the NPE even worse, reduce build variety and leave us with one, instead of three, tiers that are actually of any use.
There's also little point dealing with higher end content when even the lowest common denominator is designed to give you access to the best gear eventually. This means even more PRO stomping pubs instead of playing PC et al.
There will be pretty much no economy around STD/ADV items either, since no one will use any of it, once they went past it. Why have this stuff anyways, when the game is specifically designed for it to be useless by default?
The problem has never been that too few people can afford PRO in pubs. It's that way too many people actually can while the game hasn't bee designed for it.
I fully agree on the economy/salvage as that would mean that veteran's ISK would actually be passed down the food chain. Just generating more of it, however, will lead to inflation once item prices start to be dictated by the economy and not CCP's arbitrary seeding prices.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
831
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Posted - 2014.03.17 05:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:No one's supposed to run above ADV in pubs with any kind of konsistency, so you're not that far off going slightly negative with full ADV fits. I can barely maintain an equilibrium with my ADV fit, but only if i'm carefull not to overcommit. The problem, as you rightly pointed out, is outside funding and a general lack of significant ISK sinks for vets. This means that losing fits doesn't matter to them since they don't care about the ISK and there's no important use for PRO outside of PC anyways, so they're just used for k/d padding. Increasing payouts, however, will do nothing to solve this issue. It will only further dilute the initial purpose of tiered gear and makes not running PRO, when you have the skills, even less justifiable. Either cost or power scaling across the tiers, specifically prototype, needs to be adjusted. Frankly, doubling your eHP should either increase price by three orders of magnitude or not be possible at all. Edit: One last thing. Stompers do get a good chunk of the payouts but, with every occasional death, they also contribute the largest part to the pool. Just out of curiosity, who do you think you are? I am a CB Vet and understand the problem quite well. Without having the blocks of planets some of the big corps have and being able to pay your players for their participation in corp, there is no way to get isk other than Pubs, meanwhile this wouldn't be a problem if Eve had more of an impact on Dust and vice versa, supporting one another rather than just being in separate universes with a minute tangible link. What do we need, more isk. How should we be able to get it? By pub payouts, by selling salvage, by doing trades and some manner of isk generation other than what we have now. Hurry up CCP...fix this broken game. I'm a Mordu's Legion vet, playing since around august 2012 and decidedly corp-less most of the time. Not that any of it matters... Since running ADV almost all day long is pretty achievable already, increasing Pub Payouts enough to further make a difference against stompers will just establish full-PRO as the undeniable base line for even casual play. This means new players have no business even firing up the game until they aquired some 8m SP for a full, well supported proto fit, assuming they actually get it right the first time. It might help you, me and OP who have mostly enough SP but not quite the ISK, but will make the NPE even worse, reduce build variety and leave us with one, instead of three, tiers that are actually of any use. There's also little point dealing with higher end content when even the lowest common denominator is designed to give you access to the best gear eventually. This means even more PRO stomping pubs instead of playing PC et al. There will be pretty much no economy around STD/ADV items either, since no one will use any of it, once they went past it. Why have this stuff anyways, when the game is specifically designed for it to be useless by default? The problem has never been that too few people can afford PRO in pubs. It's that way too many people actually can while the game hasn't been designed for it. I fully agree on the economy/salvage as that would mean that veteran's ISK would actually be passed down the food chain. Just generating more of it, however, will lead to inflation once item prices start to be dictated by the economy and not CCP's arbitrary seeding prices. There really isn't necesarily any real problem with inflation and means that the market is functioning within normal parameters, just like a frozen market resembles the broken system it is.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Malkai Inos
Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State
1271
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Posted - 2014.03.17 10:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:*snippidy* There really isn't necesarily any real problem with inflation and means that the market is functioning within normal parameters, just like a frozen market resembles the broken system it is. I'm not talking about annual inflation rates. I'm referring to "when you deliberately increase the ISK output of the single largest ISK generator in game*, without increasing supply of products along with it, the only thing significantly changing will be the buying power associated with said ISK. Downwards".
This is not a problem with seeded items as they are now. It will be a huge problem once gear prices are dictated by resource, production, and other commerce costs when we get a real economy along with the eve/dust interaction we both agree cannot come soon enough.
Now think about what group of player will be more likely to gain control over said resources, production and commerce and thus benefit the most, if not exlusively, by this increase. Not the ones increasing pub payouts was supposed to help in the first place, i can assure you.
*the pie chart around halfway through the page. Source API data processed by Chribba.
I still maintain the, so far, uncontested position that we need less PRO in pubs, not more.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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ShalaShasta 666
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn
24
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Posted - 2014.03.17 11:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
this thread might not mean anything in 1.8 with increased TTK . if you re not making isk :
A. You spending too much per suit use basic weapons with better mods saves alot of isk
B. Use cover and stop dying so much
C. Budget better when you use expensive suits, play what you can pay( my favourite suit costs less than 15k isk )
OUKH Join Today
Lokun Listamenn
Got Alt?
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Luk Manag
of Terror TRE GAFFEL
342
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Posted - 2014.03.17 12:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
AND get some friends to make a 'nanite-injector-pact.' (...stick together, res each-other, profit.)
I run proto all the time, and the key to profitability is the nanite injections. I may die a few times, but only lose ISK and (AUR) on explosives and full squad wipeouts. When I'm alone I run a mix of cheaper fits and tactics.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
2406
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Posted - 2014.03.17 16:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
This is yet another attempt to solve the wrong problem. If you make proto even close to sustainable in pubs nobody with less than 10 mil SP will be even remotely viable and the NPE will be even more brutal than it already is.
Game breaking wealth disparity in the game is driven at the upper levels, that's where it needs to be fixed.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Forum Warrior lv.2
Amarr victor!
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