Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick!

Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :)

Im using a stick here because i think a carrot will make TTK go WAY over the top, but thanks for the positive feedback :)

A carrot would be applied in conjunction with a slight nerf, of course :P


Also if you're nerfing my dual tanking capacity give me some utility mods in my highs pls.

I think if you increase the speed penalty to plates, then you would see less dual tanking.

I like the idea of giving major drawbacks, but it will never fly.

Why not?

Oh i forgot to mention that-I suggest keeping damage mods as high slots and buffing range enhancers and moving them to high slots. Though, honestly, with damage mods you really don't need much else

EDIT: code breakers should be highs as well, and another DMG mod type needs to be introduced for low slots

People would complain like crazy that they can't play how they want to.

I said to do the same thing months ago, but with dmg mods and Logis. People had a crap storm.

sorry for the huge wall of text-its really not that long, just skim through it

I agreed that fitting requirements need to be adjusted.

But I always found the scaling of plates very weird (the scaling of extenders as well), especially if you look at how the penalties scale as well...So I don't believe extenders need the same scaling as plates but I fully agree that lower tier extenders need a buff I always liked 33/44/66 :) so an absolute HP gain not a percentage based.

I remember when no one armor tanked other than heavies...oh wait we only had caldari assaults lmao..makes since now.

If so much was moved to High Slots, Shields are at a detriment. They could either Dual Tank, at a greatly reduced value, or use Regulators. So a Caldari Logistics is using 5 Regulators? Or 3 Regulators and a 2 profile dampeners?

Armor would have more HP and more ability to customize with most utility things in the High Slots.

Armor was also buffed in the HP department as well as reduced speed penalties. Shield Extenders were also hit with a penalty as well. That is what did it mostly.

There is suppose to be a natural bonus to armor plates, not being weighed down as much, for gallente but according to the CPM they don't have the tools to do so from what I heard last summer and CCP had stated that giving the bonus would mess with the tag system and have them individually mess with everything which is apparently . I do not know how they are doing now but hopefully racial attributes are applied such that they have bonuses but also negatives as the OP stated.

Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick!

Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :)

Going to agree here. Instead of the penalty just give each suit an inherent 20-40% bonus towards either shields or armor and then decrease the numbers on the mods by the same amount so it winds up being exactly the same to the intended tankers. You can duel tank if you want, but you're losing effectiveness for fitting costs that might be able to be spent better elsewhere. But if this was the case there would probably need to be some more high slot mods added to the game to give better options.

Stacking on more HP to suits because they use X HP is not a good idea, heavies like the caldari and gallente would rarely need to rely on a opposite HP.

so like the idea on each tank should carry same weight
(wheres the speed tank though?)

and basic and enhanced shld extenders need work

but I am going with the carrot vs stick approach on the hybrid

kind of like the nerf actual values but give racial bonuses to compensate idea



the issue comes with the multi stacking of both, nobody will complain about a suit with 500 HP even if they use a plate and shld extender

so if we do end up giving a penalty I would like to see it not appear till after equipping a second one, and then increase from there

1+1 both fine
1+2 the 1 takes a hit
1+3 the 1 takes a big hit
2+3 the 2 takes a big hit and 3 takes hit
sort of thing

effectiveness = (# of opposite tank -1)^2 * %based value
something like that

the only things that would be moved are code breakers and range amps. Also, damage mods should be high and low slots

I don't know why you want to move range amps. Codebreakers make sense, I'd also suggest either cardiac regulators or Kin Cats, plus PG upgrades should be moved to the highs.

I suggest instead of DMG mods in highs and lows, highs get DMG while Lows get ROF mods.

Its a really simple matter of tweaking numbers right now.

Currently, with increased TTK in 1.8 coming soon due to strategic rifle nerfs, shield extenders and rechargers will have come a long way into ceasing the shield-armor disparity gap.

However, there is one issue that many who have previously debated this issue with rage, anger, bitterness, and occasionally out right trolling, have really not discussed all that much. The issue at hand is fitting requirements and how reforming them for armor plates and shield extenders will positively affect intra game balance issues.

First off, armor plates and modules are generally Pg intensive, while shield extenders and modules are generally designed to be CPU intensive. This is because utility modules designed to be coupled with these two tanking module types are intensive in the opposite resource. For example, damage mods and precision enhancers are very CPU intensive, while kinetic catalyzers and cardiac regulators are very Pg intensive. To encourage diversity, fits that utilize these utility modules as well as primary tank type must be viable.

Now, with armor plates being Pg intensive and Extenders being CPU intensive, we must find a converting factor between the two. For prototype suits, in general, the ratio of CPU to PG is 4.7-5.2 CPU/PG. Therefore, we can conclude that every 5 CPU is worth approximately 1 Pg.

Now lets look at the comparative fitting costs of shield extenders and armor plates. We will look at prototype level, as prototype plates are currently relatively well balanced in regards to prototype shield extenders.

SE-54 CPU 11 PG-equivalent of 54 CPU and 55 CPU of PG, or 109 total fitting value
AP-30 CPU 12 PG-Equivalent of 30 CPU and 60 CPU of PG, or 90 total fitting value

What currently needs to happen to bridge the disparity between extenders and plates is to
a.) lower the pg cost of extenders
b.) raise the CPU cost of extenders to equate them with armor

New values for 1.8-(suggested) for shield extenders

60 CPU 6 PG, or simply the values of armor plates reversed

With these suggested changes implemented, there is really only one more problem with extenders versus armor plates-scaling.

Current values of AP HP,

STD ADV PRO
85 115 135

Current values of SE HP,

STD ADV PRO
22 33 66

the GêåHP % between STD and PRO, and ADV and PRO do not align

A PRO plate is 1.6 times the HP value of a STD plate, and 1.17 times the value of an ADV plate in HP

A PRO extender is 3 time the HP value of an STD extender, and 2 times the value of an ADV extender in HP

Currently, the scaling system with armor plates is the better of the two, as it reduces the gap between those with PRO gear and those with MLT/STD gear, so we will scale HP values of shield extenders accordingly, assuming prototype extenders and plates are balanced against each other.

Suggested HP values for 1.8 shield extenders-

STD ADV PRO
41 56 66

These values follow the same scaling as armor plates from STD through to PRO

Now, the more discerning of you may argue "with the changed CPU/PG values, what will stop dual tanking?"

This is a valid and legitimate concern that needs to be addressed.

My idea for this will allow for full customization and diversity while at the same time discouraging dual tanking in 1.8

For Caldari and Minmitar frames, if a single shield extender is fit on the suit, the HP from armor plates is reduced by 20%, and the movement speed penalty is doubled.

For Amarr and Gallente frames, if a single armor plate is fit on the suit, the HP from shield extenders is reduced by 20%, and the depleted regen delay penalty is doubled.

Further notes- Minmitar and Caldari shield regeneration, recharge delay, and shield depleted recharge delay values need to be switched-it makes no sense that Caldari suits receive both the greatest shield buffer as well as regeneration.

PS-Ferroscales and Reactive plates will be discussed at a later time, but they need some love as well

TL;DR
change the cost of a proto extender to 60 CPU and 6 PG, and change the scaling to 41, 56, 66, and extenders will be balanced with plates

No to caldari regen part
Im not going mimatar for it
Caldari are PURE shields while minmatar is both kinda and have more speed....caldari get hp and regen and minmatar get speed buff

well, minmitar are supposed to be regen tankers to make up for their very low HP and to compliment their slight speed advantage, while caldari get a massive shield buffer tank that regens rapidly, but not as much as the minmitar. Minmitar regen should be 10% better than caldari, solely because that is their primary tank other than speed. Caldari should have very high shield regen, just not as high as minmitar.

Aside from that, what do you think about the rest of the post?

Good
And im saying is dont nerf caldari, buff minmatar
But then caldari will need an extender bonus or more high slots....as its 30 less shields idr

I don't dual tank but this game should give you the option to. I mean Cmon. If you restrict the player then this game will really be a a cookie cutter

Cal Assault based on my suggested changes (w/o doing the Extender CPU/PG as forgot, so this is keeping extender cpu/pg costs the exact same


Assault ck.0 57,690
Complex Shield Extender 4,275 CPU 484.45 / 393.75 gF
Complex Shield Extender 4,275 PG 67.8375 / 78.75 kW
Complex Shield Extender 4,275 Shield 262.5 [561.3] HP
Complex Shield Recharger 5,925 Armor 150 HP
Basic Armor Repairer Blueprint 520 eHP 412.5 [711.3] HP
Complex Profile Dampener 3,420 Shield Recharge Rate 30 [44.49] HP/s
Complex Shield Regulator 2,955 Shield Recharge Delay 5 [2.80] s
Kaalakiota Rail Rifle 47,220 Shield Dep. Rec. Delay 6 [4.12] s
N7-A Magsec SMG 4,845
M1 Locus Grenade 1,200
Ishukone Gauged Nanohive

So, even with a proposed change armor tanking will have roughly 160 HP compared to this suit, or 60 if run a 4th extender (which maybe at that point will be to close. This will make people struggle most against their non weapon specific areas making the game a bit more "interesting" and in itself could of helped TTk; as pending how 1.8 damages work; it could even more-so help/hinder the use of armored based weaponry tearing through shields, where is most still armor tank; it will hinder shield based users

This may help close the gap b/t the suits and cause more diversity again in both suits and weapons/setups

shields have 3-4 times the regen power of armor modules

this is why I believe they are the way they are

its not fair if you buff shield numbers because shields can rep so freaking fast

some one who stacks armor can have what 1 complex rep? 6.25 a second rep for a buttload of armor

people who stack shields can have what 40+ with one complex energizer? for a crapload of shields

counterarguments-armor plate hp=2-4x shield extender HP
-repair nano hives make you regen faster than shield
-logi love sticks make you regen even faster
-shield fitting requirements disable any usage of complementing utility modules (kin cats)
-shield regen has a hefty delay attached, armor does not (compare mini assault and gallente assault, the gallente regens faster, has more HP, and does more damage)

with a higher TTK, the prototype shield extender HP will be balanced with armor, but thats it. fitting costs and scaling need to change so that armor stackers don't receive such a massive and ludicrous advantage

this is why there should be the option to dual tank

repair nanohive's gimp your suit from other equipment (if assault)

i'm not gonna have a logi behind my assault 24/7

both these options depend on situation the shield regen does not

caldari logi and minmatar logi can put plates on and use both triage hives and get love from the logi stick

STD ADV PRO
41 56 66

Would be nice. I would run all advanced shield extenders if this happened.

I don't think there should be any changes tied to suits here; clearly this isn't the imbalance.

I feel like, having thought about it for a while now, that the best way to apply a penalty would be to do it via the plates or extenders themselves.
Which is to say give plates a shield delay penalty etc.