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Finishing touches for shield/armor balance in 1.8

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Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 3	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:13:00 - [1] - Quote Its a really simple matter of tweaking numbers right now. Currently, with increased TTK in 1.8 coming soon due to strategic rifle nerfs, shield extenders and rechargers will have come a long way into ceasing the shield-armor disparity gap. However, there is one issue that many who have previously debated this issue with rage, anger, bitterness, and occasionally out right trolling, have really not discussed all that much. The issue at hand is fitting requirements and how reforming them for armor plates and shield extenders will positively affect intra game balance issues. First off, armor plates and modules are generally Pg intensive, while shield extenders and modules are generally designed to be CPU intensive. This is because utility modules designed to be coupled with these two tanking module types are intensive in the opposite resource. For example, damage mods and precision enhancers are very CPU intensive, while kinetic catalyzers and cardiac regulators are very Pg intensive. To encourage diversity, fits that utilize these utility modules as well as primary tank type must be viable. Now, with armor plates being Pg intensive and Extenders being CPU intensive, we must find a converting factor between the two. For prototype suits, in general, the ratio of CPU to PG is 4.7-5.2 CPU/PG. Therefore, we can conclude that every 5 CPU is worth approximately 1 Pg. Now lets look at the comparative fitting costs of shield extenders and armor plates. We will look at prototype level, as prototype plates are currently relatively well balanced in regards to prototype shield extenders. SE-54 CPU 11 PG-equivalent of 54 CPU and 55 CPU of PG, or 109 total fitting value AP-30 CPU 12 PG-Equivalent of 30 CPU and 60 CPU of PG, or 90 total fitting value What currently needs to happen to bridge the disparity between extenders and plates is to a.) lower the pg cost of extenders b.) raise the CPU cost of extenders to equate them with armor New values for 1.8-(suggested) for shield extenders 60 CPU 6 PG, or simply the values of armor plates reversed With these suggested changes implemented, there is really only one more problem with extenders versus armor plates-scaling. Current values of AP HP, STD ADV PRO 85 115 135 Current values of SE HP, STD ADV PRO 22 33 66 the GêåHP % between STD and PRO, and ADV and PRO do not align A PRO plate is 1.6 times the HP value of a STD plate, and 1.17 times the value of an ADV plate in HP A PRO extender is 3 time the HP value of an STD extender, and 2 times the value of an ADV extender in HP Currently, the scaling system with armor plates is the better of the two, as it reduces the gap between those with PRO gear and those with MLT/STD gear, so we will scale HP values of shield extenders accordingly, assuming prototype extenders and plates are balanced against each other. Suggested HP values for 1.8 shield extenders- STD ADV PRO 41 56 66 These values follow the same scaling as armor plates from STD through to PRO Now, the more discerning of you may argue "with the changed CPU/PG values, what will stop dual tanking?" This is a valid and legitimate concern that needs to be addressed. My idea for this will allow for full customization and diversity while at the same time discouraging dual tanking in 1.8 For Caldari and Minmitar frames, if a single shield extender is fit on the suit, the HP from armor plates is reduced by 20%, and the movement speed penalty is doubled. For Amarr and Gallente frames, if a single armor plate is fit on the suit, the HP from shield extenders is reduced by 20%, and the depleted regen delay penalty is doubled. Further notes- Minmitar and Caldari shield regeneration, recharge delay, and shield depleted recharge delay values need to be switched-it makes no sense that Caldari suits receive both the greatest shield buffer as well as regeneration. PS-Ferroscales and Reactive plates will be discussed at a later time, but they need some love as well Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 3	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:14:00 - [2] - Quote sorry for the huge wall of text-its really not that long, just skim through it Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2036	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:16:00 - [3] - Quote Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Assault ak.0 w/ScR+ScP 4LYFE Forum Warrior Level Two. (GëºGêçGëª)/
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2642	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:20:00 - [4] - Quote I think if you increase the speed penalty to plates, then you would see less dual tanking. I like the idea of giving major drawbacks, but it will never fly. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 3	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:21:00 - [5] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Im using a stick here because i think a carrot will make TTK go WAY over the top, but thanks for the positive feedback :) Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2037	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:23:00 - [6] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Im using a stick here because i think a carrot will make TTK go WAY over the top, but thanks for the positive feedback :) A carrot would be applied in conjunction with a slight nerf, of course :P Also if you're nerfing my dual tanking capacity give me some utility mods in my highs pls. Assault ak.0 w/ScR+ScP 4LYFE Forum Warrior Level Two. (GëºGêçGëª)/
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 3	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:26:00 - [7] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Im using a stick here because i think a carrot will make TTK go WAY over the top, but thanks for the positive feedback :) A carrot would be applied in conjunction with a slight nerf, of course :P Also if you're nerfing my dual tanking capacity give me some utility mods in my highs pls. Oh i forgot to mention that-I suggest keeping damage mods as high slots and buffing range enhancers and moving them to high slots. Though, honestly, with damage mods you really don't need much else Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 3	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:38:00 - [8] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I think if you increase the speed penalty to plates, then you would see less dual tanking. I like the idea of giving major drawbacks, but it will never fly. Why not? Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 4	Posted - 2014.03.13 01:49:00 - [9] - Quote CCP logibro, i apologize for asking someone to make a thread asking to unban meGÇª.can you please comment your feedback upon my lowly thread? EDIT: and please don't lock it Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 5	Posted - 2014.03.13 02:25:00 - [10] - Quote added a TL;DR for all the lazy people out there Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2645	Posted - 2014.03.13 03:31:00 - [11] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I think if you increase the speed penalty to plates, then you would see less dual tanking. I like the idea of giving major drawbacks, but it will never fly. Why not? People would complain like crazy that they can't play how they want to. I said to do the same thing months ago, but with dmg mods and Logis. People had a crap storm. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1617	Posted - 2014.03.13 04:11:00 - [12] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Im using a stick here because i think a carrot will make TTK go WAY over the top, but thanks for the positive feedback :) A carrot would be applied in conjunction with a slight nerf, of course :P Also if you're nerfing my dual tanking capacity give me some utility mods in my highs pls. Oh i forgot to mention that-I suggest keeping damage mods as high slots and buffing range enhancers and moving them to high slots. Though, honestly, with damage mods you really don't need much else EDIT: code breakers should be highs as well, and another DMG mod type needs to be introduced for low slots This, along with your OP.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 6	Posted - 2014.03.13 15:55:00 - [13] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I think if you increase the speed penalty to plates, then you would see less dual tanking. I like the idea of giving major drawbacks, but it will never fly. Why not? People would complain like crazy that they can't play how they want to. I said to do the same thing months ago, but with dmg mods and Logis. People had a crap storm. well, this is an issue (dual tanking) that has been addressed by CCP as a problem and measures have been taken to reenforce no dual tanking message Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 723	Posted - 2014.03.13 16:02:00 - [14] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: sorry for the huge wall of text-its really not that long, just skim through it I agreed that fitting requirements need to be adjusted. But I always found the scaling of plates very weird (the scaling of extenders as well), especially if you look at how the penalties scale as well...So I don't believe extenders need the same scaling as plates but I fully agree that lower tier extenders need a buff I always liked 33/44/66 :) so an absolute HP gain not a percentage based.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 7	Posted - 2014.03.13 20:13:00 - [15] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: sorry for the huge wall of text-its really not that long, just skim through it I agreed that fitting requirements need to be adjusted. But I always found the scaling of plates very weird (the scaling of extenders as well), especially if you look at how the penalties scale as well...So I don't believe extenders need the same scaling as plates but I fully agree that lower tier extenders need a buff I always liked 33/44/66 :) so an absolute HP gain not a percentage based. 33 44 66 isn't bad either Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 716	Posted - 2014.03.13 20:22:00 - [16] - Quote If so much was moved to High Slots, Shields are at a detriment. They could either Dual Tank, at a greatly reduced value, or use Regulators. So a Caldari Logistics is using 5 Regulators? Or 3 Regulators and a 2 profile dampeners? Armor would have more HP and more ability to customize with most utility things in the High Slots.
Heimdallr69 Heaven's Lost Property 1854	Posted - 2014.03.13 20:23:00 - [17] - Quote I remember when no one armor tanked other than heavies...oh wait we only had caldari assaults lmao..makes since now. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 716	Posted - 2014.03.13 20:25:00 - [18] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: I remember when no one armor tanked other than heavies...oh wait we only had caldari assaults lmao..makes since now. Armor was also buffed in the HP department as well as reduced speed penalties. Shield Extenders were also hit with a penalty as well. That is what did it mostly.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 7	Posted - 2014.03.13 20:37:00 - [19] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: If so much was moved to High Slots, Shields are at a detriment. They could either Dual Tank, at a greatly reduced value, or use Regulators. So a Caldari Logistics is using 5 Regulators? Or 3 Regulators and a 2 profile dampeners? Armor would have more HP and more ability to customize with most utility things in the High Slots. the only things that would be moved are code breakers and range amps. Also, damage mods should be high and low slots Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 8	Posted - 2014.03.13 23:42:00 - [20] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: I remember when no one armor tanked other than heavies...oh wait we only had caldari assaults lmao..makes since now. Armor was also buffed in the HP department as well as reduced speed penalties. Shield Extenders were also hit with a penalty as well. That is what did it mostly. Yeah, it was pretty bad for shield tankers. AA too, thats a shield nerf right there Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Kaughst Nyain San Renegade Alliance 287	Posted - 2014.03.13 23:52:00 - [21] - Quote There is suppose to be a natural bonus to armor plates, not being weighed down as much, for gallente but according to the CPM they don't have the tools to do so from what I heard last summer and CCP had stated that giving the bonus would mess with the tag system and have them individually mess with everything which is apparently . I do not know how they are doing now but hopefully racial attributes are applied such that they have bonuses but also negatives as the OP stated. "That is not how you say my name." "How do you say your name?" "I don't know but that is not how you say it."
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 9	Posted - 2014.03.13 23:59:00 - [22] - Quote Kaughst wrote: There is suppose to be a natural bonus to armor plates, not being weighed down as much, for gallente but according to the CPM they don't have the tools to do so from what I heard last summer and CCP had stated that giving the bonus would mess with the tag system and have them individually mess with everything which is apparently . I do not know how they are doing now but hopefully racial attributes are applied such that they have bonuses but also negatives as the OP stated. That'd be cool if plates were nerfed b like 15-20% and Amarr got a bonus to HP to bring them back up to what they are, and gallente got a bonus on speed Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 341	Posted - 2014.03.14 00:15:00 - [23] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Going to agree here. Instead of the penalty just give each suit an inherent 20-40% bonus towards either shields or armor and then decrease the numbers on the mods by the same amount so it winds up being exactly the same to the intended tankers. You can duel tank if you want, but you're losing effectiveness for fitting costs that might be able to be spent better elsewhere. But if this was the case there would probably need to be some more high slot mods added to the game to give better options. FW lvl10 reward Mobile Redlines Default FWRace
Kaughst Nyain San Renegade Alliance 288	Posted - 2014.03.14 00:34:00 - [24] - Quote Ander Thedas wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Going to agree here. Instead of the penalty just give each suit an inherent 20-40% bonus towards either shields or armor and then decrease the numbers on the mods by the same amount so it winds up being exactly the same to the intended tankers. You can duel tank if you want, but you're losing effectiveness for fitting costs that might be able to be spent better elsewhere. But if this was the case there would probably need to be some more high slot mods added to the game to give better options. Stacking on more HP to suits because they use X HP is not a good idea, heavies like the caldari and gallente would rarely need to rely on a opposite HP. "That is not how you say my name." "How do you say your name?" "I don't know but that is not how you say it."
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 81	Posted - 2014.03.16 03:16:00 - [25] - Quote Kaughst wrote: Ander Thedas wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Rather than a penalty for dual tanking I'd prefer a bonus to preferred tank. Always use a carrot, not a stick! Aside from that, seems decent? I'm sure cleverer people than myself will nitpick your ideas in ways I can agree with after work :) Going to agree here. Instead of the penalty just give each suit an inherent 20-40% bonus towards either shields or armor and then decrease the numbers on the mods by the same amount so it winds up being exactly the same to the intended tankers. You can duel tank if you want, but you're losing effectiveness for fitting costs that might be able to be spent better elsewhere. But if this was the case there would probably need to be some more high slot mods added to the game to give better options. Stacking on more HP to suits because they use X HP is not a good idea, heavies like the caldari and gallente would rarely need to rely on a opposite HP. Well, he did mention that it would be accompanied by a nerf to values Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 116	Posted - 2014.03.17 02:12:00 - [26] - Quote bump for justice also, i hope most of you guys read my OP, its not as long as it looks and has some very good reasons for my suggested values in 1.8 Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
icdedppul PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 115	Posted - 2014.03.18 00:10:00 - [27] - Quote so like the idea on each tank should carry same weight (wheres the speed tank though?) and basic and enhanced shld extenders need work but I am going with the carrot vs stick approach on the hybrid kind of like the nerf actual values but give racial bonuses to compensate idea the issue comes with the multi stacking of both, nobody will complain about a suit with 500 HP even if they use a plate and shld extender so if we do end up giving a penalty I would like to see it not appear till after equipping a second one, and then increase from there 1+1 both fine 1+2 the 1 takes a hit 1+3 the 1 takes a big hit 2+3 the 2 takes a big hit and 3 takes hit sort of thing effectiveness = (# of opposite tank -1)^2 * %based value something like that
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 158	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:24:00 - [28] - Quote icdedppul wrote: so like the idea on each tank should carry same weight (wheres the speed tank though?) and basic and enhanced shld extenders need work but I am going with the carrot vs stick approach on the hybrid kind of like the nerf actual values but give racial bonuses to compensate idea the issue comes with the multi stacking of both, nobody will complain about a suit with 500 HP even if they use a plate and shld extender so if we do end up giving a penalty I would like to see it not appear till after equipping a second one, and then increase from there 1+1 both fine 1+2 the 1 takes a hit 1+3 the 1 takes a big hit 2+3 the 2 takes a big hit and 3 takes hit sort of thing effectiveness = (# of opposite tank -1)^2 * %based value something like that not a bad idea, but what if your an amarr and stack no armor plates and only shield extenders on your scout, for instance? Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 205	Posted - 2014.03.19 13:37:00 - [29] - Quote bumpily bump bump Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 211	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:57:00 - [30] - Quote come on guys... Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!



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