DUST Search - Why use damage mods (even pre 1.8)

Bones McGavins wrote:

Dunk Mujunk wrote:

Unfortunately for your argument I just recently got my complex damage mods, and yes they make a difference. I'm not talking theoretical, they make an actual difference. As i've said there is a reason why nearly everyone stacks damage mods and not shield extenders. Add to this that a quick duck around a corner lets your shields come right back means that for most it is preferable to go with damage over shields. Your number of 10% represents a single complex damage mod (pre 1.8). Many many many people run 3 (most likely 2 complex 1 enhanced).

Granted you do speak of scouts, and I don't know anything about scouts. But as an assault, if im stacking shields instead of damage, i may as well just drop all my guns, grab a rep tool and logi suit, and avoid combat altogether.

CCP is also nerfing damage mods in an attempt to increase ttk, which speaks at least some to their effectivness.

Just off the top of my head, away from my system, if you have 3 damage mods, with 2 of them being complex you are looking at around 16 point something % damage bonus (100%, 50%, 25%? Is that how the stacking penalty goes?). My GEK is doing 30 something hitpoints of damage per bullet without any mods, so 2 and a half rounds cancels out your complex extender, and I can put out 2 to 3 rounds in an insanely small amount of time. That is why I would imagine most perfer damage to shields.

Disclaimer- This was my first serious attempt at Dust math, and it was off the top of my head. Lots of ballparking and rounding, if im just completely off please let me know.

Yes your 2-3 bullets can cancel out my extender, but at the same time your damage mod does not help you kill me by more than 1-2 billets. If you do 30 damage per bullet it takes 20 bullets to kill a 600hp suit. Doing 33 knocks that to 18.18 which means 19 to kill me so one bullet.

Even if we give you the full 30% for 3 mods to 39 it's 15.4 so 16. You save 4 bullets. Meanwhile if I add 216 from 3 extenders I add 5.54 bullets at your 39 damage. So how can you say the shield doesn't matter but the damage does wgen the bullet difference is more?

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Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.10 23:23:00 - [31] - Quote I think you guys are over attributing your damage output to The mods. 10% more damage isn't going to lower ttk much at all. If a gun does 600 dps it's going to kill a 600hp suit in 1 second. Adding 10% to that gets you to .91. Meanwhile if that guy adds 72 hp to 672 he increases your ttk back above 1 to 1.02. So either that .1 second matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't help you stay alive then it doesn't help you kill. And shields have a greater impact on ttk than current damage mods. And even for flanking and avoiding direct combat, an extra 250 hp shield buffer allows me to escape around corners and get out of Los or range of enemies if I slip up. Or allows me to take a shot or two as I strafe if they turn around before I see them. There's a big dif in dying in 2 shots or dying in 5as a scout.
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 548	Posted - 2014.03.10 23:47:00 - [32] - Quote Unfortunately for your argument I just recently got my complex damage mods, and yes they make a difference. I'm not talking theoretical, they make an actual difference. As i've said there is a reason why nearly everyone stacks damage mods and not shield extenders. Add to this that a quick duck around a corner lets your shields come right back means that for most it is preferable to go with damage over shields. Your number of 10% represents a single complex damage mod (pre 1.8). Many many many people run 3 (most likely 2 complex 1 enhanced). Granted you do speak of scouts, and I don't know anything about scouts. But as an assault, if im stacking shields instead of damage, i may as well just drop all my guns, grab a rep tool and logi suit, and avoid combat altogether. CCP is also nerfing damage mods in an attempt to increase ttk, which speaks at least some to their effectivness. Just off the top of my head, away from my system, if you have 3 damage mods, with 2 of them being complex you are looking at around 16 point something % damage bonus (100%, 50%, 25%? Is that how the stacking penalty goes?). My GEK is doing 30 something hitpoints of damage per bullet without any mods, so 2 and a half rounds cancels out your complex extender, and I can put out 2 to 3 rounds in an insanely small amount of time. That is why I would imagine most perfer damage to shields. Disclaimer- This was my first serious attempt at Dust math, and it was off the top of my head. Lots of ballparking and rounding, if im just completely off please let me know. Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany. Ambitious and misunderstood. Futurama
Lightning xVx R 0 N 1 N 407	Posted - 2014.03.10 23:57:00 - [33] - Quote A couple of friends and I sat down and talked about it this matter. So we thought since 1.8 will be benefiting more of the Bonuses to Shield or Armor damage on weapons, why not have the Damage Mods boost just those bonuses? Instead of all around? Wouldn't that make sense?
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.11 00:40:00 - [34] - Quote Dunk Mujunk wrote: Unfortunately for your argument I just recently got my complex damage mods, and yes they make a difference. I'm not talking theoretical, they make an actual difference. As i've said there is a reason why nearly everyone stacks damage mods and not shield extenders. Add to this that a quick duck around a corner lets your shields come right back means that for most it is preferable to go with damage over shields. Your number of 10% represents a single complex damage mod (pre 1.8). Many many many people run 3 (most likely 2 complex 1 enhanced). Granted you do speak of scouts, and I don't know anything about scouts. But as an assault, if im stacking shields instead of damage, i may as well just drop all my guns, grab a rep tool and logi suit, and avoid combat altogether. CCP is also nerfing damage mods in an attempt to increase ttk, which speaks at least some to their effectivness. Just off the top of my head, away from my system, if you have 3 damage mods, with 2 of them being complex you are looking at around 16 point something % damage bonus (100%, 50%, 25%? Is that how the stacking penalty goes?). My GEK is doing 30 something hitpoints of damage per bullet without any mods, so 2 and a half rounds cancels out your complex extender, and I can put out 2 to 3 rounds in an insanely small amount of time. That is why I would imagine most perfer damage to shields. Disclaimer- This was my first serious attempt at Dust math, and it was off the top of my head. Lots of ballparking and rounding, if im just completely off please let me know. Yes your 2-3 bullets can cancel out my extender, but at the same time your damage mod does not help you kill me by more than 1-2 billets. If you do 30 damage per bullet it takes 20 bullets to kill a 600hp suit. Doing 33 knocks that to 18.18 which means 19 to kill me so one bullet. Even if we give you the full 30% for 3 mods to 39 it's 15.4 so 16. You save 4 bullets. Meanwhile if I add 216 from 3 extenders I add 5.54 bullets at your 39 damage. So how can you say the shield doesn't matter but the damage does wgen the bullet difference is more?
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2015	Posted - 2014.03.11 04:01:00 - [35] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Dunk Mujunk wrote: Unfortunately for your argument I just recently got my complex damage mods, and yes they make a difference. I'm not talking theoretical, they make an actual difference. As i've said there is a reason why nearly everyone stacks damage mods and not shield extenders. Add to this that a quick duck around a corner lets your shields come right back means that for most it is preferable to go with damage over shields. Your number of 10% represents a single complex damage mod (pre 1.8). Many many many people run 3 (most likely 2 complex 1 enhanced). Granted you do speak of scouts, and I don't know anything about scouts. But as an assault, if im stacking shields instead of damage, i may as well just drop all my guns, grab a rep tool and logi suit, and avoid combat altogether. CCP is also nerfing damage mods in an attempt to increase ttk, which speaks at least some to their effectivness. Just off the top of my head, away from my system, if you have 3 damage mods, with 2 of them being complex you are looking at around 16 point something % damage bonus (100%, 50%, 25%? Is that how the stacking penalty goes?). My GEK is doing 30 something hitpoints of damage per bullet without any mods, so 2 and a half rounds cancels out your complex extender, and I can put out 2 to 3 rounds in an insanely small amount of time. That is why I would imagine most perfer damage to shields. Disclaimer- This was my first serious attempt at Dust math, and it was off the top of my head. Lots of ballparking and rounding, if im just completely off please let me know. Yes your 2-3 bullets can cancel out my extender, but at the same time your damage mod does not help you kill me by more than 1-2 billets. If you do 30 damage per bullet it takes 20 bullets to kill a 600hp suit. Doing 33 knocks that to 18.18 which means 19 to kill me so one bullet. Even if we give you the full 30% for 3 mods to 39 it's 15.4 so 16. You save 4 bullets. Meanwhile if I add 216 from 3 extenders I add 5.54 bullets at your 39 damage. So how can you say the shield doesn't matter but the damage does wgen the bullet difference is more? This is true, and is where massive armour tanking comes into play. I've already got more than 720 EHP thanks to my low slots, which makes the damage mods a better bet for my GalLogi. My Amarr Assault seems to do best with 2 extenders and one damage mod for similar reasons. Assault ak.0 w/ScR+ScP 4LYFE Forum Warrior Level Two. (GëºGêçGëª)/
Disturbingly Bored Forum Warfare 1988	Posted - 2014.03.11 04:28:00 - [36] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: This is true, and is where massive armour tanking comes into play. I've already got more than 720 EHP thanks to my low slots, which makes the damage mods a better bet for my GalLogi. My Amarr Assault seems to do best with 2 extenders and one damage mod for similar reasons. Here's your answer. That's the only reason to use damage mods over shield extenders. Bones McGavin, here are the numbers you're looking for: If total suit HP is Gëñ 600, shield extenders beat damage mods in your high slot. No exceptions. (Yes, that means fighting against lasers and ScR, too.) If total suit HP is between 600 and 720, shield extenders usually win, but it depends on the weapon. (On the higher side, you're better off with a damage mod if you're fighting against an ScR.) Above 720 total HP, damage mods are better in your high slot. So Heavies and suits stacking complex armor plates should use damage mods, and everyone else should always use shield extenders. Now... after 1.8? Any suit with less than 1200 total HP should always use a shield extender. Damage Mods don't start winning until you're over 1440 total HP. So... brick-tanked heavies only. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Dunk Mujunk RestlessSpirits 567	Posted - 2014.03.11 04:57:00 - [37] - Quote The reason I go with damage mods is because if I can drop a complex shield mod in 2 or 3 bullets, I can burn through 3 complex damage mods in under or around 1.5 seconds easily. So the question to me becomes do I sacrifice 3 highs and the required cpu/pg for an extra 1.5 seconds max of life, or do I combine my roughly 16% from damage mods with my AR prof 5 and get a total 31ish% damage boost. At just under 700 hp, roughly in the grey area Bored just discussed, I choose to go with damage. If you are looking for a large percentage increase from any mod in this game, you won't find it, and the 16% from 3 damage mods is about as large a % bump as you will find. Again, I can't speak on Scouts. I imagine they aren't suppose to be seen in the first place to need more HP, but I also imagine they dont want to be slowed down by armor. I imagine some run damage mods with their shotguns, but I really dont know. I do know if you are a killer, you probably want the extra damage. I have won plenty of gunfights by the skin of my teeth, gunfightsi can thank damage mods for winning. You could argue replacing that damage with shields should still yeild the same results, but it doesnt. Dont know why or how to explain that, but it just doesnt work like that. Maybe one of the stronger rifles could give up some damage for a few fractions of a second of life, but never having used a RR CR or ScR, i cant speak on that either. And of course, as bored said, this all changes post 1.8. There will be much tinkering to be done. Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany. Ambitious and misunderstood. Futurama
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 182	Posted - 2014.03.11 05:36:00 - [38] - Quote worked good on alpha strike weps like MD or SG also if your play style revolved around flanking instead of 1vs1 face off it was worth it u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.


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