DUST Search - Why use damage mods (even pre 1.8)

Dunk Mujunk wrote:

Unfortunately for your argument I just recently got my complex damage mods, and yes they make a difference. I'm not talking theoretical, they make an actual difference. As i've said there is a reason why nearly everyone stacks damage mods and not shield extenders. Add to this that a quick duck around a corner lets your shields come right back means that for most it is preferable to go with damage over shields. Your number of 10% represents a single complex damage mod (pre 1.8). Many many many people run 3 (most likely 2 complex 1 enhanced).

Granted you do speak of scouts, and I don't know anything about scouts. But as an assault, if im stacking shields instead of damage, i may as well just drop all my guns, grab a rep tool and logi suit, and avoid combat altogether.

CCP is also nerfing damage mods in an attempt to increase ttk, which speaks at least some to their effectivness.

Just off the top of my head, away from my system, if you have 3 damage mods, with 2 of them being complex you are looking at around 16 point something % damage bonus (100%, 50%, 25%? Is that how the stacking penalty goes?). My GEK is doing 30 something hitpoints of damage per bullet without any mods, so 2 and a half rounds cancels out your complex extender, and I can put out 2 to 3 rounds in an insanely small amount of time. That is why I would imagine most perfer damage to shields.

Disclaimer- This was my first serious attempt at Dust math, and it was off the top of my head. Lots of ballparking and rounding, if im just completely off please let me know.


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Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.10 21:36:00 - [1] - Quote Looking at the numbers, it makes very little sense to use damage mods. Even currently. Complex shield extenders give you 99 shield. Which means for any suit less than 990 ehp, this gives you more than 10% boost to health. For most suits this gives more like 20-30% boost. So on a ttk front, two guys exchanging damage, one with damage mods, the other with shield extenders, the extenders would win, even right now. I could see an argument made for increasing TTK to help kill before the enemy can react, but because TTK is so low, this doesnt really come into play. So tell me, other than heavies who already have 1K+ hp without shield mods, why should any other suit use damage mods (even in their current implementation).
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.10 21:44:00 - [2] - Quote Thats my bad. I think in my mind I always had 99 from back during the OP caldari logi days where they got 5% bonus per level. So, lets say 72. Still most suits arent close to 720 hp pre extenders (or post). So the question remains. I agree with AV, AV is the only fit I put damage mods on. I could see the same for snipers, but even then, shield would give you a better chance at surviving counter snipers than damage mods would do for killing.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.10 21:46:00 - [3] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Because one of my scram rifle charge shots will put any proto cal assault to 0 shields and half armor with my triple stacked damage mods. And honestly, what does it do without those mods? 0 shields and 2/3 shield? And what would a similar shot do to you without the 250 or so buffer your sacrficng for damage, im guessing ohk?
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.10 21:52:00 - [4] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: Thats my bad. I think in my mind I always had 99 from back during the OP caldari logi days where they got 5% bonus per level. So, lets say 72. Still most suits arent close to 720 hp pre extenders (or post). So the question remains. I agree with AV, AV is the only fit I put damage mods on. I could see the same for snipers, but even then, shield would give you a better chance at surviving counter snipers than damage mods would do for killing. Stacking armor plates gives you a better chance of surviving counter snipers actually Hell, a basic armor plate gives more HP than a complex shield extender and if you are sniping its not like youll be running all over the place so the speed penalty doesnt matter Then if you slap on any old rep you are suddenly damn near invulnerable to being counter sniped unless you set up out in the open since And this is talking med suits, with a heavy suit you can just stand there and eat bullets from damn near anything but a thales and thats without using any plates or extenders Yes but stacking plates has nothing to do with the high slots. Given the same low configuration, you gain a better % of health for stacking shields than you do damage for stacking damage mods, unless you are a heavy.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.10 22:07:00 - [5] - Quote But how much time are you really going to cut into TTK with 10-20% more dmage. For most encounters you are talking 1, MAYBE 2 less shots? Where as with shield mods you are buying yourself like 3-5 more shots min(aside from snipers)
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.10 23:23:00 - [6] - Quote I think you guys are over attributing your damage output to The mods. 10% more damage isn't going to lower ttk much at all. If a gun does 600 dps it's going to kill a 600hp suit in 1 second. Adding 10% to that gets you to .91. Meanwhile if that guy adds 72 hp to 672 he increases your ttk back above 1 to 1.02. So either that .1 second matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't help you stay alive then it doesn't help you kill. And shields have a greater impact on ttk than current damage mods. And even for flanking and avoiding direct combat, an extra 250 hp shield buffer allows me to escape around corners and get out of Los or range of enemies if I slip up. Or allows me to take a shot or two as I strafe if they turn around before I see them. There's a big dif in dying in 2 shots or dying in 5as a scout.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 556	Posted - 2014.03.11 00:40:00 - [7] - Quote Dunk Mujunk wrote: Unfortunately for your argument I just recently got my complex damage mods, and yes they make a difference. I'm not talking theoretical, they make an actual difference. As i've said there is a reason why nearly everyone stacks damage mods and not shield extenders. Add to this that a quick duck around a corner lets your shields come right back means that for most it is preferable to go with damage over shields. Your number of 10% represents a single complex damage mod (pre 1.8). Many many many people run 3 (most likely 2 complex 1 enhanced). Granted you do speak of scouts, and I don't know anything about scouts. But as an assault, if im stacking shields instead of damage, i may as well just drop all my guns, grab a rep tool and logi suit, and avoid combat altogether. CCP is also nerfing damage mods in an attempt to increase ttk, which speaks at least some to their effectivness. Just off the top of my head, away from my system, if you have 3 damage mods, with 2 of them being complex you are looking at around 16 point something % damage bonus (100%, 50%, 25%? Is that how the stacking penalty goes?). My GEK is doing 30 something hitpoints of damage per bullet without any mods, so 2 and a half rounds cancels out your complex extender, and I can put out 2 to 3 rounds in an insanely small amount of time. That is why I would imagine most perfer damage to shields. Disclaimer- This was my first serious attempt at Dust math, and it was off the top of my head. Lots of ballparking and rounding, if im just completely off please let me know. Yes your 2-3 bullets can cancel out my extender, but at the same time your damage mod does not help you kill me by more than 1-2 billets. If you do 30 damage per bullet it takes 20 bullets to kill a 600hp suit. Doing 33 knocks that to 18.18 which means 19 to kill me so one bullet. Even if we give you the full 30% for 3 mods to 39 it's 15.4 so 16. You save 4 bullets. Meanwhile if I add 216 from 3 extenders I add 5.54 bullets at your 39 damage. So how can you say the shield doesn't matter but the damage does wgen the bullet difference is more?