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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.08 19:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Twenty thousand years in the future they will not have explosives that are the equivalent of a 22,000 year old device. Explosives today are made to be absolutely safe until you pull the trigger. You can shoot C4, you can light it on fire, you can even use it like play dough and make little play dough gophers bite their heads off and throw them down gopher holes. The point is it will not explode unless a very specific and very extreme condition is met.
Also making it so you have to push the button to make the RE's explode will tone down the bomb trucks a little. Don't get me wrong I'm all for strapping explosives to a vehicle and driving it into a tank. I just think the guy in the jeep needs to have enough skill to actually bail out and hit the button. Not just drive it into the nearest vehicle and get an instakill.
If you're counter argument is that in the future the explosives are smart enough to know to explode when an enemy is nearby then they should also be smart enough to explode when an infantry comes within killing distance as well.
I have a feeling everyone can see how dangerous that would be though so I think it's best we just go back to if you want a RE to explode you have to push the button.
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.08 19:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
You'll notice the spoke bomb doesn't have a remote detonator. It's also not a bomb per se. It is a sphere of Tritanium that rapidly expands to a specified size and then stops. It is indiscriminate and anything that triggers it through contact gets hit be it people or vehicles. |
WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.10 03:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
If you are jingle trucking solo then yes the process you laid out is definitely time consuming.
Look a little farther into the matter and I can definitely see one proto logi sitting at a supply depot calling in a couple of jeeps at a time. He drops an uplink or two on the ground and then he switches to his explosive suit and loads up the vehicles. one guy could easily keep two jeeps stocked and ready so as soon as the drivers pop they respawn at the uplink hop in the new vehicles and are off and running again.
I'll agree that they are saying this is a trinary explosive compound so I'll drop the comparison to C4 and move on to binary / trinary explosive agents. That being said it also means the compounds must be mixed properly before you get any kind of decent detonation. Anyone who has used Tannerite knows that if you get the mix wrong it just doesn't work right.
The same goes for one of the most powerful explosives in use today ANFO. ANFO has a detonation velocity of 5,000 meters per second.
The bottom line is that if you get the mix wrong it does much less damage. When you shoot a trinary explosive lying on the ground before the materials mix, you are not going to get a proper bang when they may or may not mix through the bullet hole. Same goes for squishing a three pack of explosives strapped to the bumper of your car. You aren't going to get a proper mix to get a proper bang.
I know I said I wouldn't speak to c4 anymore but I finished my point above and wanted to address the C4 issues raised.
C4 has a detonation velocity of 8,000 meters per second which is faster and more powerful than TNT's 7,000 meters per second even when you take composition densities into account.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_explosive_detonation_velocities
Composition A, B, and C are all mainly RDX which is C4 used in different ways. Comp A is a granular version of RDX explosive, Comp B is a mix of 40% TNT and 60% RDX with 1% paraffin wax so that it can be cast and installed in Artillery shells. and Comp C is 91% RDX mixed with a plasticizer. All three have almost identical densities and explosion velocities so there is no big difference in power between the three. Just different uses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_B
SGTFunyoun THEFIRST wrote:No, jingle trucking is a perfectly valid tactic.
And explosives are not as stable as you might think.
That block of C4 you talked about... yeah you can play football with it, but if you mash it between an exploding vehicle and a wall...
... it'll blow a hole in the wall.
Jingle Trucking only works, if you slam into a tank at full speed, or the tank slams into you, and only IF the rem explos are between the two vehicles.
I have had multiple tanks survive a 7 charge jingle truck, because I hadn't thrown them on the front of the vehicle. Not to mention, it takex time for a proper jingle trucking. You have to switch to your sapper (logi with rem explos) fit, then get a truck sent down, then get near a supply point, then place the charges, then switch to a garbage fit you don't mind losing multiple times, then you have to check the map to see where they are so you can plan your attack approach, then you have to crive while avoiding all the other stuff that might hit your truck and make it go bang... all while NOT flying off cliffs nose first so you don't make the thing go bang yourself.
And C4 is NOT a good comparison to the explosives in DUST. C4 is a cutting charge, and while in large quantities can take out alot, a charge the size of these things on DUST would be using something like TNT or Composition B or C as they are much more powerful than C4 and have a higher explosion wave propogation ratio.
Artillery shells don't use C4 because it's blast wave is too localized. In other words...
... c4 makes a big boom, but a slightly less stable explosive makes for a much bigger boom.
Maybe that is why the Remote Explosives do more damage than the Proximity Explosives... RemExs are Comp C and ProxExs are C4... or something like that.
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.10 03:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
First of all I get this is a game, CCP is god, and what they say is gospel. I just want to point out that they may have a broken mechanic on their hands with a bomb truck conveyor belt.
Also explosives aren't detonated by an electrical pulse. Otherwise static electricity and EMP would cause a sapper to explode whilst moving to an objective.
An electrical signal triggers an arming mechanism which mixes the three compounds. A small stable less powerful explosive charge is then triggered by the same signal. The smaller explosive generates high heat and a shockwave impulse which starts the chain reaction of the main explosive.
One could argue that as soon as you drop / place the explosive the chambers mix the trinary compound. However these compounds still require the high heat and shockwave of an explosive to start the chain reaction. And no a vehicle running into a wall or a tank is not going to generate anywhere near the shockwave and heat required to achieve detonation.
Martyr Saboteur wrote:If REs are detonated by an electrical pulse, Plasma, Railgun Rounds, and Scrambers/Lasers would all set it off.
In fact, the only weapons that wouldn't set it off would be Minmatar ones. Ironic.
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.10 04:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Right, but have you ever tried bailing out of a vehicle in dust? Most of the time you end up in front of the car and get squished between the car and what you run into. ( That needs a little work too. )
What it would stop is a three man sapper squad running a conveyor belt of bomb trucks out onto the field using free suits as the drivers with the proto suit back at base loading up the next couple of jeeps.
Bare minimum the driver would then have to coordinate with the bomber to set off the charges at the right time.
Mobius Wyvern wrote:WSixsmith Dust wrote:Twenty thousand years in the future they will not have explosives that are the equivalent of a 22,000 year old device. Explosives today are made to be absolutely safe until you pull the trigger. You can shoot C4, you can light it on fire, you can even use it like play dough and make little play dough gophers bite their heads off and throw them down gopher holes. The point is it will not explode unless a very specific and very extreme condition is met.
Also making it so you have to push the button to make the RE's explode will tone down the bomb trucks a little. Don't get me wrong I'm all for strapping explosives to a vehicle and driving it into a tank. I just think the guy in the jeep needs to have enough skill to actually bail out and hit the button. Not just drive it into the nearest vehicle and get an instakill.
If you're counter argument is that in the future the explosives are smart enough to know to explode when an enemy is nearby then they should also be smart enough to explode when an infantry comes within killing distance as well.
I have a feeling everyone can see how dangerous that would be though so I think it's best we just go back to if you want a RE to explode you have to push the button.
Forcing the driver to have to bail and detonate the explosives just means that they don't even lose a life in the process. Would seem to me that that would just make people *****.
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.10 23:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
To get Modern binary explosives to explode Especially ANFO A laser, or plasma from a blaster will not do it. The railgun might though.
You need extreme heat AND a high impulse shockwave. Regular blasting caps won't even set off Modern day binary explosive compounds.
General12912 wrote:what are you people talking about??? its matari tech. matari tech is very similar to our modern-day tech. im pretty sure our current tech wouldnt be able to withstand getting hit by plasma (railgun and blaster gun) or lasers (scrambler weapons).
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.11 00:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
I agree it should be possible to stick an explosive to a Mercs suit. Be they friend or foe it shouldn't matter :)
I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to suicide bomb I'm saying the way it's being done now is not quite accurate.
Sole Fenychs wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Jihad jeeps are a novel tactic, and I am amused when my tank dies to one. What should happen, however, is that jeep should show up on my radar, so that I'm not immediately blindsided by one and have a chance to throw up my hardeners to see if I can save myself. The same complaint is also adressed at tanks by infantry. Passive scanning on vehicles is simply broken. Also, the whole idea of a merc is immortality. REs aren't safe because they are utilized by a disposable plattform - Clones. In fact, it should be possible to literally suicide bomb with grenades/REs. That would make speed tanking far more useful.
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.11 02:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shooting the explosive would disable it to an extent especially if it's a liquid explosive. A grenade might be the better solution though. A frag grenade would probably set it off and flux would fry the triggering device.
Hawk Steel1 wrote:If i can't detonate it by shooting it how do i get one off of a hack point?
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.20 22:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Detonation velocity is the same a blast wave propagation. As long as you don't change the atmosphere's density the higher the Detonation velocity is the farther and faster a Blast wave will propogate. It's kinda like pushing a toy train on rails. If you can only push the train for one inch before you have to let go then the faster you push the farther and faster said train will go.
Thermobarics are a completely different animal from what we are using in Dust. Thermobarics have larger blast waves and more energy only when they can mix with atmospheric oxygen at the proper ratios. Just like ANFO or binary explosives you have to get the mix right. Thermobarics don't even work under water or in space.
The reasons Thermobarics give a bigger blast wave per pound is twofold.
First off because there is no oxidizing agent inside the thermobaric charge you can pack more explosive into the same size container yielding a higher energy density per unit of volume.
Secondly when you get ready to detonate a Thermobaric charge you have to disperse the explosive agent in an oxygen rich atmosphere and then detonate the charge. This means that the explosive area can be much bigger then the package the explosive comes in. A bigger area exploding at once means a much bigger push on the atmosphere that surrounds the explosion.
To go back to the train on the rails analogy a thermobaric charge means you get to push the same toy train for one foot instead of one inch which again means the train ( Blastwave ) is going to go farther.
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
12
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Posted - 2014.03.24 22:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
I can see the fun in that and I think we can all agree that this game is supposed to be all about the fun however, If the explosives were that unstable getting hit by a car or jumping off a hill and landing after a ten foot drop would probably set them off as well. We are shooting for a little realism in this aren't we? Is this game supposed to be Sci-fi or straight up fantasy? |
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WSixsmith Dust
Ultramarine Corp
13
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Posted - 2014.03.25 02:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
For starters the explosion of a vehicle is orders of magnitude less than the force it takes to set off most military grade explosives. The main reason being people handling the explosives don't want the explosives going off by accident. That's why you need special blasting caps to get the party started.
Secondly a jeep running into a tank shouldn't be exploding in the first place but I didn't start this thread to go into the fact that jeeps in Eve are made with less safety features than a 1971 Ford Pinto. |
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