DUST Search - The dual tanking conundrum - What is it, problems, and how to solve ...

Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:

Personally the existing extenders and plates already have huge penalties.
I know I run a Min Assault so its different but I simply can't play well loaded up with complex plates and extenders

My shields are naturally low so I almost always loose them between engagements - and 10s regen delay is a long time, and thats with nothing added.
Because my shields go down my armour always takes a hit, so I need both the ability to withdraw quickly and also recover the lost armour fast.
I tried a complex plate once and it was simply unplayable (for my style admittedly) as I couldn't get to cover fast enough - so I took more damage - so I had to spend longer waiting for the reps to catch up.

Only at proto level can I realistically use complex extenders and avoid hitting the depleted regen time. But that feels too 'Caldari' plus still not very impressive, and its only 1 flux away from being rendered useless - so again I stick to reps and balancing plates / mobility.

Why nerf the mods anyway? why not simply make the other mods better. (Although scan mods on scouts is pretty cool as is in the right situation). I'm also surprised CCP didn't increase the repair mods in line with the plate buff.

As to moving the mods I don't see why they should. The suggested slot movements you've listed don't make any sense. Gal's have low slots. Cal's have high's but your abdicating moving them around so they can actually use less of them.
And switching the 'support' mods to the opposite ends seems like an excust to both have your cake and eat it - 900 armour plus reps / 500 shields and still regen sooner and faster.

Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514

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Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7211	Posted - 2014.03.08 12:54:00 - [1] - Quote So, I won't go into detail as to why dual tanking will be the best option in 1.8 because there is already an excellent thread by Arkena Wyrnspire about it. Here, take a look: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146201 [Introduction]: Dual tanking is the act of having both a strong shield and a strong armor tank to bump the total eHP (Effective Hit Points) of a suit to ludicrous proportions, way above the intended numbers. This causes lack of diversity, as people rarely use the utility modules that having one type of tank opens up, as well as pushing suits outside of their intended role (1000 eHP scouts are going to be possible), similar to how sharpshooter back in the closed beta would push weapons outside of their intended role. In EVE, having a single strong tank works much better than having two weak tanks. The main two ways CCP Reykjavik achieves this is by having restrictive CPU/PG requirements on tank modules, so you can either have one strong stank or two weak tanks, and by having useful utility modules on both medium (high in DUST) and low slots, so if you have two weak tanks you also don't get the utility you would otherwise get. [A step in the right direction?]: Looking at the scouts and heavies in 1.8, their CPU/PG seems to be balanced in this way: Armor tanking suits get higher PG but lower CPU Shield tanking suits get higher CPU but lower PG That means that armor tanking suits can fit an armor tank very well, since it is PG intensive, while fitting a shield tank would be problematic. And the same only in reverse for shield tanking, as shields are CPU intensive. This looks like a step in the right direction, but considering that even while having lower CPU on armor suits, they still have more CPU than we have now, and vice versa on shield suits, that only begins to solve the dual tanking problem. Fitting both types will still be relatively easy. [Solution 1 of 2 - CPU/PG]: CCP needs to increase the CPU/PG requirements of armor modules and shield modules to much higher numbers than they are right now. This would mean that having two tank types would require to have two weak tanks. Here are some suggested numbers, using scouts as a baseline: Quote: Armor Plates: Basic Armor Plates: 20 CPU / 7 PG Advanced Armor Plates: 30 CPU / 10 PG Complex Armor Plates: 40 CPU / 15 PG Shield Extenders: Basic Shield Extender: 34 CPU / 4 PG Advanced Shield Extender: 50 CPU / 6 PG Complex Shield Extender: 70 CPU / 9 PG [Solution 2 of 2 - Utility Modules]: Utility modules (Armor Repairers, Shield Rechargers, Shield Energizers, Shield Regulators, any other module that doesn't affect eHP or damage) should have lower CPU/PG requirements than HP modules, and should have logical locations. I will not suggest logical CPU/PG requirements for utility modules, as there are too many, but in general they should be low - medium. Currently, modules are scattered wherever, with a heavy imbalance towards low slots. This would mean that in the new system, shield tankers would enjoy a wide range of utility modules to use while armor tankers would be forced into either modules that don't fit their role, or dual tanking. (For the most part) Here are some suggested moves for modules: Quote: Scan Precision - Low slot (Caldari Scout is a scanner suit, hence this utility module should be moved there) Profile Dampeners - High slot (Gallente scout is a stealth suit, hence this utility module should be moved there) Cardiac Regulators - High Slot (Amarr get high stamina and stamina regen, hence the locaiton) Myobirfil Stimulants - Low slot (Minmatar Scout is a melee suit, hence the move) PG Upgrade - High Slot (Shield suits get CPU upgrades as utility, and Armor suits get PG upgrades as utility, to make their respective tank stronger) Shield Rechargers and Energizers - Low Slot (Tank Support modules) Armor Repairers and Reactive Plates - High slots (Tank support modules) [tl;dr]: Increase CPU/PG on tank modules, more PG on armor and more CPU on shields Move utility modules to make sense On a final note, I believe these changes would solve dual tanking, and bring diversity to the game. I hope this would make the game more fun, as in the end, every suggestion I make is there to make the game more fun for everyone -Cat Merc, the overlord of all humans Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
CYRAX SERVIUS Death Firm. Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1102	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:01:00 - [2] - Quote Many good points my fine feline friend. CEO Whiskey squad leader Invictus Maneo~"I Remain Unvanquished"~
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 3048	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:04:00 - [3] - Quote +1 for diversity. I GÖú Kittens.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7216	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:09:00 - [4] - Quote These stats I'm using are assuming that electronics and engineering are maxed out. Anyone thinks it should be for level III? Or not at all? These two skills make this really difficult to balance right. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1995	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:09:00 - [5] - Quote Those numbers are good but they are a little to high... 3 enhanced armor plates on a adv suit take most of the PG away. For the Federation!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7216	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:10:00 - [6] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Those numbers are good but they are a little to high... 3 enhanced armor plates on a adv suit take most of the PG away. Look above for the post. I'm just not sure what would be a good balance point. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1995	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:11:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: These stats I'm using are assuming that electronics ane engineering are maxed out. Anyone thinks it should be for level III? Or not at all? These two skills make this really difficult to balance right. Without time to pump out some math! For the Federation!
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 10714	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:17:00 - [8] - Quote A solution I have always favoured is tweaking HP modules to take up large amounts of PG and utility modules to take up primarily CPU. That way, there's an effective limit on the amount of tanking you can do and it encourages the use of utility modules. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7216	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:19:00 - [9] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: A solution I have always favoured is tweaking HP modules to take up large amounts of PG and utility modules to take up primarily CPU. That way, there's an effective limit on the amount of tanking you can do and it encourages the use of utility modules. That is also a possibility. But I also like the idea of low slot utility modules taking more PG, while high slot utility modules take more CPU. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7217	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:32:00 - [10] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Cat Merc wrote: These stats I'm using are assuming that electronics ane engineering are maxed out. Anyone thinks it should be for level III? Or not at all? These two skills make this really difficult to balance right. Without time to pump out some math! I put in an in between solution, assuming that the user has engineering and electronics to level III. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514

BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1995	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:35:00 - [11] - Quote CSE: 65/7 CAP: 33/13 ASE: 46/5 AAP: 23/9 BSE: 32/4 BAP: 16/6 Tweaking For the Federation!
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 656	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:37:00 - [12] - Quote I support a lot of this except for the moving of tank support modules like armor reppers and shield rechargers. I understand what you're trying to do, but I don't think that letting someone stack a lot of HP and then stack a lot of regen on top is good idea. It's up to the individual merc to choose between buffer and rep. More diverse and pertinent choices are needed though, to dissuade dual tanking. Dual tanking shouldn't be impossible, though, just an inefficient choice when compared to other support options. Now is the winter of our non-content. Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14. A manu dei et tet rimon.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7217	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:37:00 - [13] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: CSE: 65/7 CAP: 33/13 ASE: 46/5 AAP: 23/9 BSE: 32/4 BAP: 16/6 Tweaking Could you explain your numbers? I had a method creating mine. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7219	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:39:00 - [14] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: I support a lot of this except for the moving of tank support modules like armor reppers and shield rechargers. I understand what you're trying to do, but I don't think that letting someone stack a lot of HP and then stack a lot of regen on top is good idea. It's up to the individual merc to choose between buffer and rep. More diverse and pertinent choices are needed though, to dissuade dual tanking. Dual tanking shouldn't be impossible, though, just an inefficient choice when compared to other support options. It will still be that way. Also, I see your point, so I will amend the moving of repairers, rechargers and energizers. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1995	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:41:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: CSE: 65/7 CAP: 33/13 ASE: 46/5 AAP: 23/9 BSE: 32/4 BAP: 16/6 Tweaking Could you explain your numbers? I had a method creating mine. Not done, posted so I don't lose them For the Federation!
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming Zero-Day 926	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:44:00 - [16] - Quote Personally the existing extenders and plates already have huge penalties. I know I run a Min Assault so its different but I simply can't play well loaded up with complex plates and extenders My shields are naturally low so I almost always loose them between engagements - and 10s regen delay is a long time, and thats with nothing added. Because my shields go down my armour always takes a hit, so I need both the ability to withdraw quickly and also recover the lost armour fast. I tried a complex plate once and it was simply unplayable (for my style admittedly) as I couldn't get to cover fast enough - so I took more damage - so I had to spend longer waiting for the reps to catch up. Only at proto level can I realistically use complex extenders and avoid hitting the depleted regen time. But that feels too 'Caldari' plus still not very impressive, and its only 1 flux away from being rendered useless - so again I stick to reps and balancing plates / mobility. Why nerf the mods anyway? why not simply make the other mods better. (Although scan mods on scouts is pretty cool as is in the right situation). I'm also surprised CCP didn't increase the repair mods in line with the plate buff. As to moving the mods I don't see why they should. The suggested slot movements you've listed don't make any sense. Gal's have low slots. Cal's have high's but your abdicating moving them around so they can actually use less of them. And switching the 'support' mods to the opposite ends seems like an excust to both have your cake and eat it - 900 armour plus reps / 500 shields and still regen sooner and faster. "...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7219	Posted - 2014.03.08 13:50:00 - [17] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: Personally the existing extenders and plates already have huge penalties. I know I run a Min Assault so its different but I simply can't play well loaded up with complex plates and extenders My shields are naturally low so I almost always loose them between engagements - and 10s regen delay is a long time, and thats with nothing added. Because my shields go down my armour always takes a hit, so I need both the ability to withdraw quickly and also recover the lost armour fast. I tried a complex plate once and it was simply unplayable (for my style admittedly) as I couldn't get to cover fast enough - so I took more damage - so I had to spend longer waiting for the reps to catch up. Only at proto level can I realistically use complex extenders and avoid hitting the depleted regen time. But that feels too 'Caldari' plus still not very impressive, and its only 1 flux away from being rendered useless - so again I stick to reps and balancing plates / mobility. Why nerf the mods anyway? why not simply make the other mods better. (Although scan mods on scouts is pretty cool as is in the right situation). I'm also surprised CCP didn't increase the repair mods in line with the plate buff. As to moving the mods I don't see why they should. The suggested slot movements you've listed don't make any sense. Gal's have low slots. Cal's have high's but your abdicating moving them around so they can actually use less of them. And switching the 'support' mods to the opposite ends seems like an excust to both have your cake and eat it - 900 armour plus reps / 500 shields and still regen sooner and faster. Well, you might want to consider that Minmatar have the lowest CPU/PG. Gallente, Caldari and Amarr can all do quite a bit of dual tanking. The other mods are already quite powerful, making them better could very easily break stuff. It's just that brick tanking > everything. Give players the option to have more HP/Damage, and they will usually take it over anything else. As far as moving the modules, that's the point. An example from EVE: Gallente interceptors can use medium slots (same as our high slots) to fit webifiers, warp disruptors and afterburners. Given a choice between tank and utility modules, tank wins 99% of the time, unless the utility modules become game breaking. As far as rechargers and repairers, I already changed that. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 659	Posted - 2014.03.08 14:02:00 - [18] - Quote Or.. simply give extenders a headshot penalty. The more you stack, the harder headshots hit you. 1-2 modules would not do much, say +2% incoming headshot damage, but 3 would become 4%, 4 would be around 12% 5 gives 25% etc.. would make you have to pick and choose your defense. If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1995	Posted - 2014.03.08 14:55:00 - [19] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Cat Merc wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: CSE: 65/7 CAP: 33/13 ASE: 46/5 AAP: 23/9 BSE: 32/4 BAP: 16/6 Tweaking Could you explain your numbers? I had a method creating mine. Not done, posted so I don't lose them CSE: 62/9 CAP: 38/13 ASE: 48/6 AAP: 25/10 BSE: 37/5 BAP: 20/7 These numbers were acquired by following a % multiplier vs the total CPU/PG pool, I believe it was 70/40 for Caldari Shields, and 40/70 for Gallente armor. Initially I built it from Complex level then went down, and after adjusting some numbers I scaled it from Basic and up. The non-faction fitting multiplier is 1.25x Basic-ADV and 1.5x ADV to Proto, the faction fitting multiplier is 1.3x Basic-ADV-Proto. This still allows dual tanking, in a way but it makes a dual tanked fitted very weak offensively. For example a Dual tanked suit cannot tank above the suits tier this will invalidate the fit. At proto level though this is not the case, and I do not intend that it is just a consequence of nothing being above proto. But without prof V a proto suit cannot fit a proto weapons, and may or may not be able to fit an ADV weapon, a proto suit HAS TO TANK WITH A SINGLE STYLE. These numbers are only meant for non prof suit, if you want it to scale with prof then multiply each number by a modifier equivalent to the Prof level. Scout C-1 174/33 DT: 131/22 Scout C/1 Series 244/46 DT: 194/38 Scout ck.0 330/74 DT: 324/62 For the Federation!
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5423	Posted - 2014.03.08 15:35:00 - [20] - Quote I agree with your idea, but I am concerned about Minmatar Frames. They are supposed to be speed tankers, but the Kinetic Catalyzers are PG intensive. Lowering the PG on them would serve to make them underpowered even further. Reducing their PG would be an order. Also, the 3rd paragraph has a typo. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't want a strong stank. lolPLC [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND

BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1996	Posted - 2014.03.08 15:39:00 - [21] - Quote Atiim wrote: I agree with your idea, but I am concerned about Minmatar Frames. They are supposed to be speed tankers, but the Kinetic Catalyzers are PG intensive. Lowering the PG on them would serve to make them underpowered even further. Reducing their PG would be an order. Also, the 3rd paragraph has a typo. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't want a strong stank. How would lowering PG on Kin Cats make Min frames, or the module UP. I don't know if you mean the PG of the suit or the module. For the Federation!
Marc Rime 306	Posted - 2014.03.08 15:55:00 - [22] - Quote Is the ability to dual tank really a problem? It's a fairly recent phenomenon despite being possible (and viable) since beta. To me that suggests the rise in popularity of dual tanks is a mere symptom of some other problem... For some reason people suddenly prioritise max EHP over everything else -- my guess it is because of the shortened TTK (and weapon damage preventing movement).
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7225	Posted - 2014.03.08 15:56:00 - [23] - Quote Marc Rime wrote: Is the ability to dual tank really a problem? It's a fairly recent phenomenon despite being possible (and viable) since beta. To me that suggests the rise in popularity of dual tanks is a mere symptom of some other problem... For some reason people suddenly prioritise max EHP over everything else -- my guess it is because of the shortened TTK (and weapon damage preventing movement). Yes, it is a problem. Now that mercs have tasted the blood of eHP, they're going to consume it all the time. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1996	Posted - 2014.03.08 16:00:00 - [24] - Quote Marc Rime wrote: Is the ability to dual tank really a problem? It's a fairly recent phenomenon despite being possible (and viable) since beta. To me that suggests the rise in popularity of dual tanks is a mere symptom of some other problem... For some reason people suddenly prioritise max EHP over everything else -- my guess it is because of the shortened TTK (and weapon damage preventing movement). Dual tanking + an extended TTK is going to make the combat extremely slow. That and the fact weapons to more damage to single tank builds rather than dual tanked builds means that dual tankers have the longest TTK regardless. This not only destroys combat but destroy field variability. Remember the old Caldari Logistics and how annoying and difficult it was to kill, this is going to be Dust 1.8 except with every suit. For the Federation!
DootDoot Da Short Buss 205	Posted - 2014.03.08 16:35:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Iceland does this balance by having tank modules require a fair bit of resources to fit... WHere utility modules are cheap and fairly easy to fit. They would have to do with suits what has been asked for since closed beta... And tweak CPU and PG and modules so dual tanking has a downside.. It was that 10% damage was worth more then 33 shield HP... But the passive scanning modules are lacking in major ways... and dampening mechanics are gimped so someone without skills or modules can still detect you having their screen pointed in your general direction... And shields in general are lacking... Maybe after 1.8 it might improve... But giving CCP shanghai the benefit of the doubt? has long since expired through their actions never meeting their words. Shields where designed as a complete package.. and then CCP nerfed their relevance with AA and everyone being rewarded with super aim... even though the input and crosshair placement didn't warrant it. Having shields so you need extenders for health point increases, rechargers and energizers to increase your repair rate..... and Regulators to increase the delay before your shield boosts kick in was a complete designed package to be focused on shields on both high and low slots. The main advantage to shields was mobility and evasion.. AA Removes this as a factor. Armor isn't like this... it would fundamentally have to be changed so there would be a high slot to benefit armor without unbalancing the shield mechanics further. The main downfall to armor was the lack mobility an more stationary heads to aim at... AA removes this as a factor shield and armor heads are equally as easy to hit.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1939	Posted - 2014.03.08 16:45:00 - [26] - Quote Indeed. Some more mod changes would be needed, but this is definately the best way I have seen for dual tanking to be eliminated. Make is so suits not designed for armor to have a hard time fitting armor, and suits with armor have a difficult time fitting shields. But... What about the Amarr? They are innately designed to dual tank on the ground. Because you Wanted to be Something your Not.
DootDoot Da Short Buss 206	Posted - 2014.03.08 16:53:00 - [27] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Indeed. Some more mod changes would be needed, but this is definately the best way I have seen for dual tanking to be eliminated. Make is so suits not designed for armor to have a hard time fitting armor, and suits with armor have a difficult time fitting shields. But... What about the Amarr? They are innately designed to dual tank on the ground. I think the Amarr weaponry was supposed to have a Heat sink option in the damage mods... instead CCP didn't have the time and put the bonus on the suit on uprising launch... Seeing how most of the IRC and Skype.. CCP stalkers and CPM's run Amarr Assault suits they panicked when CCP talked about removing it.. and protested and pretended to be buddy buddy to get it back... This is the reason for a majority of short sighted tweaking and half fast changes... The same niche group offering advice to CCP to improve their own game play. IronWolfSaber with his tanks and tank buff... after 8 months of asking for exactly this... This is echoed through most of CPM... Stuff they use directly or hurts their individual gameplay gets the attention.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1532	Posted - 2014.03.08 19:15:00 - [28] - Quote What if tank (armor, shield, speed, stealth) required more power out of the suit (PG) and enhancements (scan, damage, regen, melee, other) required more CPU? This probably a bad idea, but I had another one that I'll post here in a few hours. Just have to get my stuff together. Hopefully that one will be better than this one.
Jack Kittinger Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 174	Posted - 2014.03.08 20:06:00 - [29] - Quote I want to see this in main page, not f'n who is using what for 1.8 This here is the important tweak to be made in the next update Proud winner of the 'Templar BPO Raffle' by Castor Crave!! Lucky Number 29
Marc Rime 306	Posted - 2014.03.10 13:17:00 - [30] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Marc Rime wrote: Is the ability to dual tank really a problem? It's a fairly recent phenomenon despite being possible (and viable) since beta. To me that suggests the rise in popularity of dual tanks is a mere symptom of some other problem... For some reason people suddenly prioritise max EHP over everything else -- my guess it is because of the shortened TTK (and weapon damage preventing movement). Yes, it is a problem. Now that mercs have tasted the blood of eHP, they're going to consume it all the time. Yeah, guess you might have a point there... Then again, you only need enough EHP to not die - a huge buffer that is never touched unless you run into a massive cross-fire serves no purpose other than eating up module slots... although, without useful alternative modules...



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