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Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 27	Posted - 2014.03.06 18:13:00 - [1] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: According to the recent dev blog posted by CCP Remnant on the weapon changes, the nova knives will be the only weapon whose proficiency skill book bonus will still apply bonus damage uniformly to both shield and armor. Other weapons will be either anti-armor or anti-shield while the knives stay as anti-both. And even with the changes to the damage mods, the Ishukone nova knives will still dish out at least 1100 charged damage with just one enhanced damage mod. That's not accounting the bonus damage to shield and armor. And with the buff to scouts plus the cloaks and reduced ttk, it looks like our golden age is finally returning. Explain how you plan on using NK on a min scout Adv suit. It is impossible to equip anything but a std cloak, NK, kin cat complex, cardiac cat std plus one complex extender. There's no PG available for anything else, nothing else to keep min a competitive scout. Every scout suit can run 2 complex extenders within the same basic build, but not the min scout. Do the math, or use a fitting 1.8 tool in forums. It is impossible to fit anything on adv scout min. RE's good luck. Not gonna happen. If you plan on using a complex dam mod for secondary weapons, i cannot see where or how you can fit that module. Want to use a adv cloak, don't make me laugh. Plan on using anything but a useless flay lock there's no PG for nades, a second equipment slot, a decent secondary weapon, a second complex extender... Low PG is the death of the adv min suit. So before you say how good NK's are, please show me a build where the extremely low PG of a min adv suit is able to compete with Cal, Gal, or Amarr. It can't so you're better off using a dif class and running NK in 1.8 if the current PG stats releases are the same. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 27	Posted - 2014.03.06 19:00:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: So before you say how good NK's are, please show me a build where the extremely low PG of a min adv suit is able to compete with Cal, Gal, or Amarr. It can't so you're better off using a dif class and running NK in 1.8 if the current PG stats releases are the same. - Cots By "current PG stats releases" are you referring to the stats we have RIGHT NOW in 1.7 or are you talking about the 1.8 stats listed in the link below? Dropsuit Skill Book Bonuses http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65556/1/dropsuitskills181.jpg Dropsuit Stats http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65556/1/dropsuitsuprising18.jpg Since the Dust Fitting Tools have not yet been updated with 1.8 stats, I can't tell for certain without going through some extensive math manually which I'm not gonna bother to do today. Also, don't forget that scout suits in general will have a 75% (at level 5) reduction in CPU/PG usage of the cloak. With the cloak stats listed below, that reduces the requirement down to 40 CPU and 9 PG for the STD. Cloak Stats http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/forums/cloaks18.jpg Now, in 1.8, once the cloak is introduce, I don't think I'm going to ever need a shield extender at all. This is a scout after all and I have adapted already to stabbing folks with just one basic damage mod, two basic kin cats with a BPO SMG and Ishukones on a Scout M-1 suit (STD). That's just currently in 1.7. Also, if I use the cloak, it's pretty obvious I won't need that much of the kin cats anymore since I don't have to worry much about closing distance or traversing through open areas. So that cuts down the CPU/PG demand pretty well. Oh, and one more thing. I only use the NK to kill. That SMG I mentioned earlier? That's just to scare off people. The NK do the real killing and that is my ONLY primary weapon. That said, I'll probably get rid of the SMG from the fit altogether since I hardly ever use it. Here are some base calculations I've made. These do not include a weapon in the desired fit: Min: 100S 70A 5% hacking/nova knife Scout Adv: 232S 70A (302) M/1 3H 2L: 153/256C 22/43P +1H C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 235.5/332C 50.5/55P +1H C/P Ups + Cape Adv: 209.75/332C 45.25/55P +1H -> 122C 9P +1H or 96C 9P w/Enhance -OR- Scout Adv: 298S 70A (368) M/1 3H: 207/256C 33/43P C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 289.5/332C 61.5/55P If you feel like experimenting theres this website i found in forums: http://www.protofits.com/fittings It again has all the stats projected in 1.8 as well as all the skill level boosts etc. toss on a usual basic fit: NK + complex kin for speed needed to close the gap + adv/complex card cat needed for stamina + a std/adv cloak which is of course needed + 1-2 complex extenders (needed and every scout can equip 2 with ease at adv level). Now say you want to add RE's due to all the heavies you will see in 1.8 and maybe you want a nice smg or maybe even try the new mag sec... These are impossible to equip, while other as suits can at the same tier. If min adv scouts are given 4 additional PG it would change a lot. But as they stand based on the leaks, equipping a min adv suit is impossible. Even with max'd stats it is impossible to make a reasonable fit given their PG limitations. It's nearly impossible to create an competive suit. Go ahead, try out this fitting tool. 4 PG will go a long way. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 27	Posted - 2014.03.06 19:08:00 - [3] - Quote If you care to compare all other suits. Go for it: Suit Layout & Bonus: Cloak Pro: 330(82.5)C 70(17.5)P Cloak Adv: 231(57.75)C 49(12.25)P Proto-Adv Capes= 25.75C 5.25P Cape Std: 40C 8.75P Shields Extender: 54C 11P Cardiac Reg Pro: 12C 8P Cardiac Adv: 9C 5P Kin Cata: 27C 15P Dampener: 33C 0P 25% for at 35 is 8.75 Damp Adv: 24C Enhancer: 26C 0P for 20% at 45 is 9 PG Pro: +14P for -24C PG Adv: +11P for -17C PG Reg: +8P for -14C Remote Explosives: 63C 10P Remote Ups: 53.55C 10P Six Kin Sub: 57C 10P Six Kin Ups: 48.45C 7.5P Ash Sub: 68C 11P Ash Ups: 57.8C 8.25P New Sub: 61C 12P New Sub Ups: 51.85C 9P K5: 40C 5P K5 Ups: 34C 3.75P Nova Knife: 48C 8P Flay lock 45C 2P Pistol 63C 10P or 58C 8P Weapon Combos: Six Kin + Ash Sub: 107C 17P Six Kin Sub + Remotes: 103C 19P Ash Sub + Remotes: 112C 19P Six Kin + New Sub: 101C 17P Ash Sub + New Sub: 109C 17P 1 complex of: Extender + Cardiac + Kin + Cloak = 175.5C 51.5P Complex Cardiac 12C vs 9C & Adv 8P 5P Possible Builds for each class at Adv: Cal Adv: 317C 59P - Adv Cloak: 2 complex extenders, 1 complex enhancer, 1 complex Cardiac, 1 complex Dampener -> 81C 16P (slow) 332 Gal Adv: 300C 67P - Adv Cloak: 2 complex extenders, 1 complex Cardiac, 1 complex Kin, 1 PG Mod --> 71C 32P (low PG) 332 --> 95C 18P before PG mod 56C 25P for 2 Kins and PG mod or 18P on weapons and use CPU over PG mod Min Adv: 332C 55P - Adv Cloak: 2 complex extenders, 1 complex enhancer, 1 complex Cardiac, 1 complex Dampener --> 96C 9P (slow) 302 Amar Adv 309C 63P - Adv Cloak: 2 complex extenders, complex Kin Cata, complex Dampener, PG mod --> 69C 27P (low stamina) 362 --> 93 13 before PG mod 63C 12P for 2 Kins and PG mod or Std cloak could give PG needed to get both Weapons Cal: 130S 70A 5% scan radius/precision (complex enhancer, basic range amp) Precision: 45-11.25= 33.75-9 =24.75 Scout Adv: 262S 70A (332) +1H C/1 3H 2L: 153/244C 30/46P + 1H C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 235.5/317C 47.5/59P +1H C/P Ups + Cape Adv: 209.75/317C 42.25/59P +1H -> 107C 16P +1H or 81c 16P w/Enhance -OR- Scout Adv: 328S 70A (398) C/1 3H: 206/244C 41/46P C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 289.5/317C 58.5/59P C/P Ups + Cape Adv: 263.75/317C 53.25/59P --> 53C 5P Scout Pro: 262S 70A (332) CK 4H 2L: 116/348C 30/66P + 2H C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 198.5/452C 47.5/91P +2H -OR- Scout Pro: 328S 70A (398) CK 3H: 170/348C 41/66P + 1H C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 289.5/452C 58.5/91P + 1H *** Gal: 70S 130A 5% scan radius/scan profile (complex damp, basic range amp) Damp: 45-8.75 = 26.25-8.75 =17.5 Scout Adv: 202S 130A (332) G/1 2H 3L: 180/231C 45/52P C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 262.5/300C 62.5/67P C/P Ups + Cape Adv: 236.75/300C 57.25/67P -> 63C 9P Scout Pro: 202S 130A (332) + 1L GK 2H 4L: 180/330C 45/74P +1L slot C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 262.5/429C 62.5/96P +1L Min: 100S 70A 5% hacking/nova knife Scout Adv: 232S 70A (302) M/1 3H 2L: 153/256C 22/43P +1H C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 235.5/332C 50.5/55P +1H C/P Ups + Cape Adv: 209.75/332C 45.25/55P +1H -> 122C 9P +1H or 96C 9P w/Enhance -OR- Scout Adv: 298S 70A (368) M/1 3H: 207/256C 33/43P C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 289.5/332C 61.5/55P Scout Pro: 232S 70A (302) MK 3H 3L: 180/355C 45/62P +1H C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 262.5/475C 62.5/80P +1H -OR- Scout Pro: 298S 70A (368) MK 3H: 234/355C 56/62P C/P Ups + Cape Pro 3H: 316.5/475C 73.5/80P Amar: 60S 170A 5% stamina regen/max stamina (less than basic regulator) Scout Adv: 192S 170A (362) A/1 2H 3L: 180/238C 45/49P C/P Ups + Cape Pro: 262.5/309C 62.5/63P C/P Ups + Cape Adv: 236.75/309C 57.25/63P -> 72C 5P Scout Pro: 192S 170A (362) + 1L AK 2H 4L: 180/340C 45/70P +1L slot C/P Ups+ Cape on Pro: 262.5/442C 62.5/91P +1L This is what I got. For each suit on 2 basic cookie cutter builds. I've done the math, I've put the builds into the fitting tool I found and its clear that the Min scout Adv would benefit from the smallest boost to PG. Even if NK are given a PG reduction skill thst only lowers its PG by 2. Like I said okay around, how do you expect to equip RE's, maybe nades or some AA nades would be nice just try to equip anything but a bare bones pistol. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 28	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:37:00 - [4] - Quote The pro fitting tool - forgot to mention you need to use the * (thats * not swear words) suits. They are the post 1.8 lol The only problem is the mag sec CPU/PG cannot be reduced as of now. The tool is great but as you can see I've done my own calculations prior to finding the site so even if you feel website is unreliable or perhaps not the best tool - I welcome you to check my adv build comparisons that i calculated myself. @the guy name using RE's or sidearms. You might be forced to use RE's in 1.8 and even if you feel a sidearm isn't what you want to do, RE's should be your best friend against heavies which are looking at guys running 1200 armor and maybe 400 shields. Do while it would take you 3 charged shots to down them, their RR or HMG quick spooling will get you more than you would like. I know you're a purist, and that is great but RE's are fun, and you seem to be be the 1% outlier and not the norm. Everyone else who build a NK in 1.8 would really like a few more PG. The community should be concerned about the lack of PG. I think additional 4 PG is the answer. I hope the copy pasted stuff isn't too confusing - but you can clearly see Amarr will be fine at 7% instead of 5 while Min adv plus need 4 PG to be fine as well. I'm not some game developer or some commuter wiz, just someone who can see the obvious. But the community doesn't talk about things they don't concern or impact them. NK min adv scout need a small boost and I think I have shown that. Its fine at Proto but at Adv 4 PG more isn't too much. It means adding like 2 PG to base suit. Even allowing NK to have PG reduction skill will help adv min scouts equip more than a std cloak, one complex extender and a complex kin cat. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.03.06 21:55:00 - [5] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: It's actually not that hard to make a decent scout fitting with the new stats. Even the advanced minmatar scout can be made good, but you've got to have your core skills maxed out, and of course, one low slot will need to be given up for an enhanced powergrid upgrade, but other than that, I just used that fitting tool to make an advanced suit that's as good as my current proto suit (short of a kincat) and is almost half the cost. It is doable, you just have to sacrifice a single low slot and you're set. So yes, Nova Knives are going to be even more awesome than they are now, and scouts are going to be the bane of all things. Let's agree on two things. First, kin cats are mandatory and secondly, you want to be able to effective fit a cape. What would you also like to be able to equip with your NK, well I would like more than 225 stamina if I am required to run around foes, flank, escape and survive the encounter. I would also like to be able to equip more than a std smg or scrambler ( i can deal with a std but its even hard to equip those at s td let alone adv), because people do backtrack to create distance and it can leave NK in a terrible position. So in order to finish them off in many situations this would be a nice thing. Frankly, I don't care to use RE's because I can't see how RE's CPU/PG can fit in a min adv scout but people will make it work. RE's might be required in 1.8 due to all the eHP fatties stacking eHp mods but thats another discussion. I would like to use 1-2 complex shield extenders, its frustrating to be 1 shitted by a burst HMG or CR... Not to mention TKK is being increased this won't matter for scouts running 250-330 eHP. It's like a 2-3 bullet difference, hardly something to bother. Scouts die quickly isn't a complaint but I do want to live after I've killed someone. On adv min scout, equipping a second extender is impossible. And since you can obviously see a armor mod won't or can't be used, adding a complex or two complex sheilds would be very very nice (and all other scouts adv can do it with ease). When everything is considered, adding 4PG isn't much when adv min scout is max'd skills. I don't see how you can argue giving up a low slot when there's only 2 of them. If min adv was 2-3 and not 3-2 this would be different argument. But when you compare to other class bonuses, not running Kin Cat/Card cat in the lows seems to be counter productive to the flank, chase down, close the gap, stab, escape and live. Please, try to fit an adv cloak on a min adv scout. Its possible with the other classes. Please try to use 2 shield extenders on a min scout adv, it's very possible on the other classes. Show me how RE's or nade/drop links/compact nano/scanners can be effectively equipped on a min adv scout. The class simply is inferior to The other 3 and its by the slightest margin of PG, but creates a major difference. If you want to be bare bones, running no kin cat or using some sort of PG/CPU mods on your low to make it happen then you should help the rest (the majority) argue for the smallest boost in PG. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:15:00 - [6] - Quote mollerz wrote: I don't know, but I've made it this far with the venerable and hobbled POS M/1 with IshNoks no problemo. Edit: Here is the key to fitting a minja: ALL Level 5- Electronics, Engineering, Light Weapons, Sidearms, and Explosives. Also, M scout skill, KN, KN Proficency. Pick a weapon and max that out. I suggest the combat rifle- All level 5 skills. Then you can rock with knives and the basic combat rifle is extremely deadly based jus ton your skills. voila. Perfect minja. I agree that CR is probably the best option. Even with adv or Proto CR, the build is restricted greatly. CR is the best but nth else works as well as the CR, it's agreed but even using the amazingly low PG here is what you come up with: It means highs: 1 complex shield extender (the lack of the PG forced you into 2 complex range amps)... Nothing wrong with range amps but it means no no no chance at a second extender. There's a chance of tossing energizer here yes and that would be beneficial but its 96 vs 26 CPU at complex. So even if you decide on adv energizer or anything stud can fit. But the point is there is no room for dam mod, second extender.. Things others can use and something the first post pointed out thst will help him tske down players effectively. Lows: kin cat complex, card std/adv (I would use std to gain the extra PG). Wasting enhance PG or CPU here is exactly that, a waste. Handicapping your ability to move into and then out of an engagement. Flank, stalk, close the gap, stab, escape, live. There's no escaping if the stamina is gone and your 20-40 second of cloak means you got in undetected and can use last second to close gap and escape. The adv cloak cannot be equipped here and can be used on other suits. So just a slight disadvantage in PG has caused significant problems compared to other adv scouts. Equipment: no chance at adv cloak so std cloak is only option. Nothing else seems to be able to fit... No nades, no std RE, no links or compact hives. It ends up 54/56 PG and 292/336 - with a CR, Ish NK - with bare bare bones stuff, no equipment or nades possible. So hardly, comparable to its counter parts. Ok, there CPU room to use energizer but my argument is there is no room for deviation. Your low slots are stuck, you cant equip 2 extenders or 1-1 dam mod like was mentioned int he first place. So, you aren't running the same scan profile or close to it as others can, nor have equal eHP because there's 0 chance at armor mod or a second extender. I have shown this clesrly with my own builds and findings. I'm not arguing for much adding 4PG when max'd is all that would be needed. It opens up the adv min scout to so much more.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:35:00 - [7] - Quote Ok, so let's use the idea you need a damp in a low. This is a great idea, it keeps you off the radar and of course lets you flank. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AvYSJ6FRJlihdFhORUVidFFTOEhpUG0xOVRUb0pkakE&amp;amp;usp=drive_web&pli=1 Here the doc, so if you compare to while cloaked vs non cloaks. First and foremost, i think I have effectively shown that a std cape is the only cloak a min adv scout can use. Please, consider the lots of posts above lol If you're looking to get under 31.5 scan profile it means giving up 1 of the 2 low slots. Or both to avoid the Cal scout with 3 enhancer or a gal logi scanner (which you can't avoid in a adv scout min fit because you need 3 damps). So let's take away either a card cat (most likely, which hurts you're ability to move around the map, etc.. Lots of problems but its more likely than removing a kin cat), or a kin cat (which is almost mandatory to close distance to attack but some will remove this to free up RE's or use adv cloaked). Replace one or both with a damp helps and hurts perhaps equally, but it saves you 3-5 PG. IMO, not worth it, and like I've compared the other classes do not need these huge trade-offs. The 3-5 PG doesn't mean dam mod or 2nd extender as well. Best case scenario, it lets you equip adv nade and turned your 8 PG into 13 PG for a weapon slot. Lots more options here but as you can see the damp at complex is still 23, meaning you're not off anyone's radar whose looking. Plus you've handicapped your stamina to 225 and still can't run a second extender/dam mod/adv cloak. It frees up ability to use more weapons so you can play with shotguns/AR (most not all), smg (most not all), or add compact hive or adv locus. Yes more options, but doesn't seem to be worth the stamina trade off or doesn't seem to keep you off those who are looking... I don't want to say bad choice because 31 to 23 helps you avoid 75% of scanners but it's not gonna help as much as maybe it should since you are wasting 1 of 2 Lows. Again, CR is best option to free up PG and be deadly but 4PG more after bonuses would solve the problem. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.03.06 22:51:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: You seem to put a lot of emphasis on the shield extenders. Honestly as a dedicated scout, I don't use extenders. Even with the nerf to guns and extended ttk, I'm still staying away from shield extenders. Besides, as a ninja I thrive on not being spotted in the first place. And I'm sure I'm not the only one out there running around naked with no shield extenders on as I'm sure many of us scouts have gotten use to dealing with paper mache suits and working around that. As for your statement about kin cats being mandatory, I know that's mostly true in 1.7 but we need to see first how things go in 1.8 before we jump to that conclusion. Okay, if you want to run a bare bones no complex extenders, I can respect that. I can't see how with 2 lows you expect to stay off the radar but also keep up your mobility, it takes 3 slots or 2 + a racial bonus to stay off the radar. 31 vs 23 as shown above helps but doesn't mean you aren't off the radar in 1.8 - spreading 56 PG without any extenders is much easier. 15 to kin cat, maybe 5-8 for card cat maybe let you run adv cloaked in this situation. It'll let you run Proto knives, and keep your second weapon viable. It'll let you use a second equipment slot and adv nades together. So it creates a great variable to your game, its ballsy as hell and means when that huge de-cloak sound goes off you need to dodge bullets well, re-cloak and run away without stamina depletion or appearing on radar. Do I think 1 complex mod is mandatory, I do, but I respect people running all variations and commend you if you can put up strong games with bare bones approach. The difference between a complex extender and a complex dam mod is only 3 PG... I assume you are either aren't running a dam mod and are using CR to save PG to be so versatile or you're using no dam mod and are gaining ability to use a different weapon (not CR) or maybe RE's which are nice goodies. I can make an argument that getting in, killing and getting out requires 1 complex extender but if you feel that you can put up great games going bare bones I guess you don't need the extra 4 PG... But it's still a matter of kin cats, being on radar or off vs stamina to be able to get in and out. 2 Low are problematic given the PG if you decide to forego extenders for dam mods to combat insane eHP fatties. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:16:00 - [9] - Quote @seb - yes if you see the fitting tool has the ability to give you max skills and therefore provides weapon information and then in brackets provides their new stats given the reduction to cost. If you want to draw the build out by hand and not use the fitting tool - you can still use the tool to check the lowest possible CPU/PG fittings for each weapon/equipment/etc... So i simply draw out the build and can use their weapon stats to fit the options I want. If you can see by my copy pasted builds I did this when i experimented with SMG x2 or SMG + RE builds. @Crimson - Mins counts will give up stamina/speed/damp at adv cuz of the 2 slots. I have shown that even at 23 scan profile you aren't avoiding those who are bothering to find you. It lets you avoid 75% of the other guys, but it puts your mobility in a very hard place. The build you demonstrate seems to lack the mobility to flank, stalk, close the gap, hit, escape and then live. If you plan on using the Proto cape to get in and get out after the attack (45 seconds lets say) I can't see who you plan on stalking or closing the gap on stragglers or coming up behind enemy lines without exhausting your stamina. And even then, 23 sc isn't making you invisible on the radar. Dampener adv is putting you at 25 sc which isn't taking you out a basic Cal scout, any Proto scanner on gal without mods. So you can't say you're off the radar at all. Like I posted, the 2 range amps, 1 extender mins adv scout can nearly see you at 26 without any effort and just filling wasteful slots lol While cloaked, you still aren't avoiding any Proto scan gal log or a 2 amp cal which the majority of calls will use 2. Again, you're using a std CR, aren't using nades/ a second equipment .. This can be changed if you wish to lower cloak but it appears you can't afford not to be cloaked because of the lack of mobility to avoid conflicts etc...Again, not trying to be critical of a creative build that is using the optimal weapon partner to the NK, but it seems mobility for a NK scout is king and you have none. You could be better off as Gal, Cal and Ama scout suits and not a min suit if you plan on using that sort of strategy. It has nice Hi slots, I like that but I can't see how you plan to close the gap to strike while staying off the radar without a complex damp or changing classes. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:26:00 - [10] - Quote I'm not asking for this great buff to PG, I'm saying the suit could compete with 2-3 more PG (after boosts). Cal is 60, Cal is 67, Ama is 64 compared to Min 56 with bonuses. Even 2PG would help greatly. 58PG on adv min scout would mean a lot, a NK PG reduction would be nice to create 4PG more. Allowing for far more possibilities, more balance between the classes and doesn't restrict you to a std weapon or CR. - Cots

Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 30	Posted - 2014.03.06 23:42:00 - [11] - Quote sebastian the huds wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: I'm not asking for this great buff to PG, I'm saying the suit could compete with 2-3 more PG (after boosts). Cal is 60, Cal is 67, Ama is 64 compared to Min 56 with bonuses. Even 2PG would help greatly. 58PG on adv min scout would mean a lot, a NK PG reduction would be nice to create 4PG more. Allowing for far more possibilities, more balance between the classes and doesn't restrict you to a std weapon or CR. - Cots Simply downgrade to the zn-28 knives if you have minmatar scout maxed the ishikones are WAY overkill sometimes I know, but like most of the community I am too am freaking out about the insane eHP of some sentinels in particular Gal Sents), I'm pretty sure no one wants to be slashing a heavy 3 times only to have that heavy using RR nail you. And like most I expect to see a heavy amount of Cal scouts running 2-3 amps, so staying hidden off the radar seems like a Gal only task. Not a task for a 2 Low adv min scout who needs to get so so close to foes they can cut them down. 2 PG after bonuses, maybe NK PG optimization skill would greatly help. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 30	Posted - 2014.03.07 00:42:00 - [12] - Quote mollerz wrote: sebastian the huds wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: I'm not asking for this great buff to PG, I'm saying the suit could compete with 2-3 more PG (after boosts). Cal is 60, Cal is 67, Ama is 64 compared to Min 56 with bonuses. Even 2PG would help greatly. 58PG on adv min scout would mean a lot, a NK PG reduction would be nice to create 4PG more. Allowing for far more possibilities, more balance between the classes and doesn't restrict you to a std weapon or CR. - Cots Simply downgrade to the zn-28 knives if you have minmatar scout maxed the ishikones are WAY overkill sometimes FALSE. You know that time you got killed after knifing a tanked heavy or logi and see they had 28 armor left? Yea, that's what using ZNs gets ya. Go IshNok or go home. Hey, I didn't suggest using adv NK. Frankly, with the eHP buff in 1.8 I don't see how you can get away without Ish NK. Which, bring me back around to the needing 2 extra PG plus the 2 PG you can save on Ish NK when there is a optimizing skill - Fots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 30	Posted - 2014.03.07 01:04:00 - [13] - Quote @Crimson - No, sadly I do not have a Proto scout yet only Adv. I currently am spec'd into Cal slayer logi shotgun build which I can run in many different forms: Slayer, real logi, speed shot gunner, or with -1200 eHP). I haven't used it in a long time, too many open long range maps, lack of interest, etc... I cannot afford the ISK wise to run a Proto type suit and frankly I don't see the need to run a Proto fit in most cases. I am fine running Adv suits in all cases except when I see a potential stomp coming. When a player market emerges I will be able to get rid of officer weapons, some 300 Proto Ama logi suits and make some ISK form when I feel I need the extra boost from mods. I have 15m SP exactly right now with a very linear skill tree in weapons. So when 1.8 re-spec happens (and it really should) I will be able to run Proto Scout but like I said, I don't feel the need because Adv suits should be fine. I don't enjoy the slow moving heavies, two light weapon commandos doesn't interest me either. Assault suits are useless in 1.8. I've had a lot of fun the last three to four months running a shotgun scout and rather play for fun (although I do want to play well and excel). 1.8 will give me the chance to spec into either Min NK + Six Kin CR or Gal 2x SMG builds. I haven't decided which I prefer so I've invested a lot into comparing the suits, in particular at advanced. Amarr needs a racial skill boost and i don't think it'll be used for more than to replace light, fast assault builds. Cal scouts look very interesting but I don't run in a team so i feel their real value is in a team concept. So it leaves me with Min and Gal. Gal is superior in nearly every way, it has the mobility, speed, scan profile, better slot load out, and higher PG to be more versatile and gives weapon diversity. I could even run a Gal 1 complex extender + 1 complex sidearm dam mod and run it with NK and it might be a superior option to Min Adv Scout NK. I'm trying my best to rock NK with min adv scout to get the boost to damage but I cannot see how it can be viable without adding 2 PG after boosts and NK having PG optimization skill. I've done so so many builds and I can't piece together how Gal isn't a better suit to use. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 31	Posted - 2014.03.07 02:23:00 - [14] - Quote Yes, I know moody, I use to team with him while he was in Darkstar. He was pretty good back then, now he just has elite gear and corp so it's even scarier. I don't tend to watch videos of others, I read posts and do my own experiments and calculations. I don't really like to watch his (or anyone else thats high SP) Proto stomping videos. I don't think running superior gear, having a massive SP skill tree etc... really shows off what the game is about. Nor do I find it reflects the realistic match play of everyone else. Surely, he is skilled, as mentioned he was good back in the day, but it's just a **** move to do what they do now. Proto stomp some lower tier players because CCP is useless and can't set up a balanced match making system. Like why would they, it's not often that corps stay in a match once they see another elite corp is against them. Wouldn't want a fair fight, they might lose their credibility and mess up either fake confidence gained by stomping noobs who stand little chance after a spawn. I've been on his side or against him many of times since he joined OuterHaven and in both scenarios the game is not enjoyable. It's just a bunch of running around spawn trapping or running around avoiding a spawn trap. It's pretty much going to be hell once elite squads start using the cal scout to scan and quickly spawn trap. Not to single him out but they all do it, it's just how gross the "I report You" video he posted was, that he is a prime example of a player whose corp/squads should be matched against balanced competition and shouldn't need to run Proto suits in every match all the time to dominate. Yea, I'm not oppose to Proto suits usage, I just feel the lesser skilled players should use them to keep them competitive against superior players and not superior players using them to stomp. I have nothing wrong with a lone wolf running Proto, but I have a problem with elite squads doing it continuously for the purpose of "fun" or whatever BS they argue. - Cots
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 35	Posted - 2014.03.08 20:19:00 - [15] - Quote @Toash - again not to best a dead horse, no one is questioning the Proto Min Scout suit. There's plenty of CPU/PG there to make it viable. It might not be as good as Gal or Cal but its on par with Ama. The debate is whether or not you can make a comparable fitting using NK in as vs out suit min. While keeping with the same speed, stamina, dampening and utilizing NK + a sidearm/main weapon. I said this cannot be done, min as scouts will need 2 more SP after boosts to be functional and are therefore significantly worst than other adv scout suits. I showed the numbers. Many possible builds and it simply doesn't work.

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