DUST Search - Vehicles vs. AV and 1 Player vs. 1 Player

Joel II X wrote:

Well, tanks are mostly for safety and attack. They have moments when they become gods, but their moments of weakness aren't enough for AV to take them out most of the time because of their speed.

Hardeners should grant strength when active and when cooling down, it should make you weaker than you would be if you didn't have that mod in the first place. As in:

Armor Hardener grants +30% Resistance to armor while active. -10% while cooling. Also, if you have dual hardeners and cycle through them, it'll be +20% Resistance on thesecond one thanks to the previous' -10% while cooling. This prevents the "Permanent God" exploit. Having two active at a time may give you +60% (or have stacking penalties) but will result in -20% once you're in cooling.

Tank speed should be reduced. Shield tank should go at the speed of the current armor tank and the armor should be reduced accordingly.

You can still have a viable tank without these mods, but I do believe that tanks should receive more total health if this change is made. Not much, though.

Then again, you guys should probably ignore my post since I may be giving crappy suggestions. This is all my opinion.

As for AV, swarms should be given more range and I think we'll be good to go. Damage isn't a problem. Flux and a few good shots while their hardeners are down and you have a dead tank. Forge Guns are still awesome AV and the breach may be able to OHK tanks while cooling with the changes I'm proposing.

Plasma Cannon needs a fix all around lol

AV Grenades need more damage against armor. Not the old damage, but certainly more than they have now.

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Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 487	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:30:00 - [1] - Quote I see two general schools of thought on V vs. AV and they tend to revolve around the number of players involved. The first idea is that it should take a group (at least two) to coordinate to take out a single tank. Do you feel this way? If I have a proto forge gun and your in a MLT tank with MLT mods, should I be able to take you out solo without you having a chance to escape? The second idea is that a single player in AV should be able to take out a single player in a vehicle, specifically a tank. Do you feel this way? What if I have two gunners in my tank? Now should a single player be able to take out three players by himself? The main thing I see in these arguments is people saying "It should take this many players to take out that many." It seems like a flawed way to go about balance issues, to say it should be balanced based on number of players involved. If this is how you feel, how do you justify using player numbers as a balancing focus when so many other factors are involved? DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 798	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:35:00 - [2] - Quote Tanks should take multiple AV to kill. But they should take multiple people (ie: small turrets) to kill infantry. Make large blasters into AV instead of AI, and 90% of QQ about tanks will disappear. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 657	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:37:00 - [3] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Make large blasters into AV instead of AI, and 90% of QQ about tanks will disappear. You need to explain that point further. What exactly do you mean?
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4482	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:37:00 - [4] - Quote A tank with gunners is a lot harder to kill than a Tank with no gunners. This is especially true after the buffs small turrets received. So by virtue, a tank with competent gunners will always be more difficult to kill. Though yes, I believe that 1 AV player should be able to face off against a Tanker of equal skill and equipment. 1 for 1 makes much more sense than the 3 to 1 scale we have now. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4482	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:40:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Tanks should take multiple AV to kill. But they should take multiple people (ie: small turrets) to kill infantry. Make large blasters into AV instead of AI, and 90% of QQ about tanks will disappear. That sounds bad. Means that if a Tanker decides to run solo, then he will be at the mercy of anybody not in a vehicle. That is unfair. Though I used to have a similar idea: Make vehicles harder to kill, but require more damage to destroy. Main guns would still be lethal, they would just be less so. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Takron Nistrom Tinfoil Hatz 245	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:41:00 - [6] - Quote Make the blaster turrets tracking much lower so you cannot easily track infantry and youll need the small turets for AI GÇ£Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)GÇ¥ GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2148	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:50:00 - [7] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: I see two general schools of thought on V vs. AV and they tend to revolve around the number of players involved. The first idea is that it should take a group (at least two) to coordinate to take out a single tank. Do you feel this way? If I have a proto forge gun and your in a MLT tank with MLT mods, should I be able to take you out solo without you having a chance to escape? The second idea is that a single player in AV should be able to take out a single player in a vehicle, specifically a tank. Do you feel this way? What if I have two gunners in my tank? Now should a single player be able to take out three players by himself? The main thing I see in these arguments is people saying "It should take this many players to take out that many." It seems like a flawed way to go about balance issues, to say it should be balanced based on number of players involved. If this is how you feel, how do you justify using player numbers as a balancing focus when so many other factors are involved? I can see your point and quite true, in the second school of thought adding extra people to the tank complicates a matter. However the way I see is: We have 16v16 matches where upto 6 people per side can deploy an individual tank. So we will assume this is done everytime. This leave ten infantry units to deal with the enemy tanks. This gives a ratio of 1.7 people per tank, at this point I feel it unfair for more than 1 person to be required. HOWEVER if we had a larger ratio of people to each tank say 5:1, then expecting 3 of those people to be required to take out that tank suddenly doesn't seem so ridiculous. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 801	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:56:00 - [8] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Tanks should take multiple AV to kill. But they should take multiple people (ie: small turrets) to kill infantry. Make large blasters into AV instead of AI, and 90% of QQ about tanks will disappear. That sounds bad. Means that if a Tanker decides to run solo, then he will be at the mercy of anybody not in a vehicle. That is unfair. Though I used to have a similar idea: Make vehicles harder to kill, but require more damage to destroy. Main guns would still be lethal, they would just be less so. It is absolutely fair. If you want to destroy infantry, fit small turrets. That's the sacrifice. You wreck all vehicles, but if you forgo fitting small turrets, you are at the mercy of infantry. Tanks should be kings of AV, and be vulnerable to counterattack by infantry. A tank can defend itself by making room to fit small turrets and finding people to man them. Best PVE idea I've seen.
VonSpliff TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 59	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:59:00 - [9] - Quote Worst idea CCP made was removable seats. It's like this if a whole clip can kill any infantry build than a whole clip of forge/swarms should kill its target. Watch the judge's vids if you haven't already "Long live the Empress, unless you have some isk"
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1890	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:59:00 - [10] - Quote One AV player, any single AV player, should be able to drive off vehicles on his own. As in, do enough damage to make them hurt. A single AV player should be able to solo kill shitfits, and kill basic tank fits if they're stupid and stick around. It should take coordinated AV to kill high-SP tank fits. But no high-SP should be able to sit tight and lol at AV, no matter the circumstances. A single proto AV build should be able to make a single high-SP tank really hurt to the point of driving them off. The problem is that right now, low-SP tankers can sit and lol at single proto AV. Prior to 1.7, a single mildly-SP-invested AV could murder proto tanks. Neither is balanced. AV needs a buff, tanks need to stay the way they are, and we'll have something closer to balance. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]

MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 194	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:32:00 - [11] - Quote If the tanker is stupid enough to sit in AV fire, then yes, it should only take one AV to kill that tanker. If the tanker chooses to escape after the first shot, he should have a fair chance to get away, in which case the 2nd AV comes into play, he could be waiting on the possible escape route and finish off the tanker. MTL AV should have fair chance against MLT tanks. STD AV should have fair chance against MLT and STD tanks. ADV AV should have good chance against MLT and fair chance against STD and ADV tanks (whenever those are realesed) PRO AV should have no trouble getting rid of MLT or STD tanks and should have fair chance against ADV and PRO tanks (again whenever those are realeased) Currently tho if you want to get rid of enemy tank, your best bet is lol1shotting it with remotes or proxies or JLAV. Or you could quickly take care of it with IAFG, or if it's armor tank, proto swarms with multiple damage mods. How to achieve actual balance? I dunno. What do I know? Current AV vs V situation is totally broken and current tanks are boring as fck. 3 AV types totally dominate most tanks, 2 of which instakill most tanks, unless they happen to be in a triple hardened Gunnlogi, which leads to my second point: tank variety is nonexistent, either you use the one working tank configuration or you might as well just shoot yourself in the leg right now. There is no balance between different fittings. One fit to rule them all, one fit to find them, one fit to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.* EDIT: Now this all obviously assumes that the tanker is working alone. If they have a force multiplier like LLAV there backing them up, then you obviously need to take down the logi first. What do you mean it doesn't exist? Oh nevermind what I just said then. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 tanks, you will be missed.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 505	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:48:00 - [12] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Lots of good points. I like your system better that the seemingly set in stone "one AV should take down one tank." Yeah, if both players are being smart, it should like up about how you say, where MLT AV should have a fair chance against MLT tanks, etc. Until ADV and PRO vehicles are released though, could we have a situation like this where PRO AV could dominate MLT and STD vehicles? I guess the topic of MLT, STD, ADV, and PRO tiers is for another thread. One thing I have noticed though is that Swarms are terrible. I would like to get more into vehicles (skilling in to vehicles removes a lot of fitting problems, aside from access to higher tier turrets, and the +25% active module duration and -25% active module cool down looks like an awesome combo.) I just have other priorities right now. I am excited to be able to use a PRO State turret, because camo on the camo State Gunnlogi hull. My current contender for favorite fit is this State Gunnlogi (literally no reason to put SP into Vehicle Command unless you want Assault Dropships) prefit main turret two small State ADV rail turrets Basic Heavy Shield Booster MLT Shield Hardener x2 Basic CPU Upgrade x2 This is awesome in my experience when I can get two gunners on coms. The decision between MLT and Basic is for fitting issues and minimizing cost. So about swarms. In this fit, if I get shot or know I'm going to get shot, I activate a hardener. If I need to boost shields, I do that. If I'm still taking too much damage, I activate the 2nd hardener and GTFO. (I have noticed a bug where if I activate a hardener and immediately activate the booster afterwards, the hardener immediately goes to cool down and the booster doesn't activate. Anyone else noticed that?) When I notice I'm getting hit by swarm launchers, I don't really worry at all. My shields go down a bit, I get hit with the second volley, and in the time it takes them to reload, I'm to full shields, never having activated a booster or hardener. It's safe to say that swarms got over-nerfed. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 195	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:59:00 - [13] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Lots of good points. Lots of stuff The bug you mentioned about modules has been there since beta, if you activate 2 modules in rapidly then the second one goes straight into cooldown. And sometimes as you activate module you cannot fire your turret either. Swarms, like I mentioned, only work against armor at proto level. And even then only with dmg mods and hitting the weak spot of the tank. Which can in very rare occasions result in quite hilarious one shot kills. :P However I do think swarms should not be very effective against shields, but they should definitely do more than tickle. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 tanks, you will be missed.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1824	Posted - 2014.03.05 01:04:00 - [14] - Quote 1: most active modules, especially the hardeners are broken atm. That's what started all this. 2: I wonder why people didn't think blasters were even more OP back then when it was far stronger......... 3: **** adv. and PROTO vehicles. I hope they never come. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1430	Posted - 2014.03.05 01:06:00 - [15] - Quote Well, tanks are mostly for safety and attack. They have moments when they become gods, but their moments of weakness aren't enough for AV to take them out most of the time because of their speed. Hardeners should grant strength when active and when cooling down, it should make you weaker than you would be if you didn't have that mod in the first place. As in: Armor Hardener grants +30% Resistance to armor while active. -10% while cooling. Also, if you have dual hardeners and cycle through them, it'll be +20% Resistance on thesecond one thanks to the previous' -10% while cooling. This prevents the "Permanent God" exploit. Having two active at a time may give you +60% (or have stacking penalties) but will result in -20% once you're in cooling. Tank speed should be reduced. Shield tank should go at the speed of the current armor tank and the armor should be reduced accordingly. You can still have a viable tank without these mods, but I do believe that tanks should receive more total health if this change is made. Not much, though. Then again, you guys should probably ignore my post since I may be giving crappy suggestions. This is all my opinion. As for AV, swarms should be given more range and I think we'll be good to go. Damage isn't a problem. Flux and a few good shots while their hardeners are down and you have a dead tank. Forge Guns are still awesome AV and the breach may be able to OHK tanks while cooling with the changes I'm proposing. Plasma Cannon needs a fix all around lol AV Grenades need more damage against armor. Not the old damage, but certainly more than they have now.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1824	Posted - 2014.03.05 01:22:00 - [16] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Well, tanks are mostly for safety and attack. They have moments when they become gods, but their moments of weakness aren't enough for AV to take them out most of the time because of their speed. Hardeners should grant strength when active and when cooling down, it should make you weaker than you would be if you didn't have that mod in the first place. As in: Armor Hardener grants +30% Resistance to armor while active. -10% while cooling. Also, if you have dual hardeners and cycle through them, it'll be +20% Resistance on thesecond one thanks to the previous' -10% while cooling. This prevents the "Permanent God" exploit. Having two active at a time may give you +60% (or have stacking penalties) but will result in -20% once you're in cooling. Tank speed should be reduced. Shield tank should go at the speed of the current armor tank and the armor should be reduced accordingly. You can still have a viable tank without these mods, but I do believe that tanks should receive more total health if this change is made. Not much, though. Then again, you guys should probably ignore my post since I may be giving crappy suggestions. This is all my opinion. As for AV, swarms should be given more range and I think we'll be good to go. Damage isn't a problem. Flux and a few good shots while their hardeners are down and you have a dead tank. Forge Guns are still awesome AV and the breach may be able to OHK tanks while cooling with the changes I'm proposing. Plasma Cannon needs a fix all around lol AV Grenades need more damage against armor. Not the old damage, but certainly more than they have now. The only parts to this that's right is 1: HAV movement needs nerfing slightly 2: Swarms needs more lock on distance 3: PLC needs buffing Otherwise, lolno 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-


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