DUST Search - Vehicle + AV imbalanced explained by Judge

General12912 wrote:

Harpyja wrote:

Dustbunny Durrr wrote:

Tanks, Especially Militia and Rail Tanks are obviously OP. Militia tanks because you are getting a lot of usefulness out of 0 SP and low ISK. Rail Tanks because they can snipe other vehicles as they are coming in, and basically swat dropships in 2 shots (3 shots if the ds pilot is well fit to tank dmg) with NO projectile drop off and virtually no travel time for the projectile. Honestly, they need to replace rail turrets with some form of projectile turret that has an arc and projectile travel time (think flaylock or mass driver). This would add skill to sniping, and make it harder to repeatedly hit moving targets (such as drop ships).

Don't forget that the railgun is a beat-all against vehicles in CQC as well; there's absolutely no downside to the damn thing! It has amazing accuracy, range, and DPS which makes it OP compared to missiles and blasters, which give up a fair amount for their strengths: missiles give up range and accuracy for alpha damage (and that's all they got before they have to reload) and blasters give up DPS and range for accuracy (which makes them effective AI and ineffective AV).

false. at close range, the blaster outperforms the railgun in a 1v1 tank battle. ive beaten two standard tanks with standard railguns at once while driving a soma as a matter of fact.

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Xaviah Reaper Nyain San Renegade Alliance 254	Posted - 2014.03.03 16:53:00 - [1] - Quote Just found a decent video by top pilot Judge Rhadamanthus. He explains in some detail how to balance out the whole vehicle and AV system and how tanks are literally broken. It is roughly 18 minutes long, so just stick it out and enioy. Credit obviously go to Judge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBjUlQNYR4 opinions? Best game with a Python: 33kills 1 death (1.6) 24kills 1 death (1.7)
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 124	Posted - 2014.03.03 19:02:00 - [2] - Quote Tanks, Especially Militia and Rail Tanks are obviously OP. Militia tanks because you are getting a lot of usefulness out of 0 SP and low ISK. Rail Tanks because they can snipe other vehicles as they are coming in, and basically swat dropships in 2 shots (3 shots if the ds pilot is well fit to tank dmg) with NO projectile drop off and virtually no travel time for the projectile. Honestly, they need to replace rail turrets with some form of projectile turret that has an arc and projectile travel time (think flaylock or mass driver). This would add skill to sniping, and make it harder to repeatedly hit moving targets (such as drop ships).
Chesyre Armundsen Thanes Of Dust 451	Posted - 2014.03.03 22:04:00 - [3] - Quote +1 Props to Judge! Mihi gravato Deus - "Let God lay the burden on me!"
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 73	Posted - 2014.03.03 22:17:00 - [4] - Quote guys, no matter what you say, vehicles will never be the same as they originally were. and dont whine about vehicles in the current state. CCP promised they are just going to be tweaked and stuff. just think of the current vehicles as templates. Assault Gk.0 Gallente Federation Patriot General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1218	Posted - 2014.03.03 22:27:00 - [5] - Quote Dustbunny Durrr wrote: Tanks, Especially Militia and Rail Tanks are obviously OP. Militia tanks because you are getting a lot of usefulness out of 0 SP and low ISK. Rail Tanks because they can snipe other vehicles as they are coming in, and basically swat dropships in 2 shots (3 shots if the ds pilot is well fit to tank dmg) with NO projectile drop off and virtually no travel time for the projectile. Honestly, they need to replace rail turrets with some form of projectile turret that has an arc and projectile travel time (think flaylock or mass driver). This would add skill to sniping, and make it harder to repeatedly hit moving targets (such as drop ships). Don't forget that the railgun is a beat-all against vehicles in CQC as well; there's absolutely no downside to the damn thing! It has amazing accuracy, range, and DPS which makes it OP compared to missiles and blasters, which give up a fair amount for their strengths: missiles give up range and accuracy for alpha damage (and that's all they got before they have to reload) and blasters give up DPS and range for accuracy (which makes them effective AI and ineffective AV). "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 73	Posted - 2014.03.03 22:42:00 - [6] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Dustbunny Durrr wrote: Tanks, Especially Militia and Rail Tanks are obviously OP. Militia tanks because you are getting a lot of usefulness out of 0 SP and low ISK. Rail Tanks because they can snipe other vehicles as they are coming in, and basically swat dropships in 2 shots (3 shots if the ds pilot is well fit to tank dmg) with NO projectile drop off and virtually no travel time for the projectile. Honestly, they need to replace rail turrets with some form of projectile turret that has an arc and projectile travel time (think flaylock or mass driver). This would add skill to sniping, and make it harder to repeatedly hit moving targets (such as drop ships). Don't forget that the railgun is a beat-all against vehicles in CQC as well; there's absolutely no downside to the damn thing! It has amazing accuracy, range, and DPS which makes it OP compared to missiles and blasters, which give up a fair amount for their strengths: missiles give up range and accuracy for alpha damage (and that's all they got before they have to reload) and blasters give up DPS and range for accuracy (which makes them effective AI and ineffective AV). false. at close range, the blaster outperforms the railgun in a 1v1 tank battle. ive beaten two standard tanks with standard railguns at once while driving a soma as a matter of fact. Assault Gk.0 Gallente Federation Patriot General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 791	Posted - 2014.03.03 23:59:00 - [7] - Quote The problem with tanks is that a militia hardener is just as effective as a proto hardener when they are both active. The only difference is cooldown. This makes no sense. I can fit a militia hardener, which is way cheaper than a proto one, and the only difference is I must wait longer before I can use them again. This is the problem. With no skills and minimal money, I can make my tank just as hard to kill as a protoed out tank, for much less investment. This is where the problem comes in. Someone can overwhelm a proto tank through sheer force of numbers, because it is so easy to get a militia tank on the same level as a proto one, for about 20% of the price. Currently there is no advantage to proto mods beyond having to wait for more or less time before they are usable again. This means someone can through a 68k ISK tank against a 550k ISK proto tank, and they are on near equal footing. So it is more efficient to use cheap tanks to overwhelm proto tanks through sheer force of numbers. We need to make hardeners all have the same cooldown, and have the resistance go up through the tiers. This means that a proto tank has a distinct advantage over the militia tank, because he invested the SP and ISK into it. They should all have a standardized uptime and cooldown, but have the effectiveness increase as you spend more SP and ISK, just as they do on dropsuit modules. The other problem is how little damage increases as you go through the tiers of weapons. A standard railgun deals 1450 damage. a proto one deals 1885. This is a 30% increase in damage. A militia railgun costs 14,670 ISK. A proto railgun costs 281,955 ISK. This is a 1922% increase in price. This is a gigantic disparity in cost (we haven't even mentioned SP investment) that makes running proto mods so useless. The price difference is an order of magnitude different, and the benefit is so miniscule in comparison. This issue is how cheap the hulls are, and how expensive the modules are. The hull that holds the proto railgun is almost a third the price. Proto dropsuit weapons are about 90% - 120% of the price. We need to greatly increase the base hull price, and greatly reduce the module price. Paying more for proto is good, as that is part of the balancing factor. But paying over 1000% more for proto is outright insane. For comparison, a proto assault suit is 57,690 ISK. With this level of price jack, a proto rifle would be about 166,831 ISK. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 269	Posted - 2014.03.04 00:08:00 - [8] - Quote General12912 wrote: false. at close range, the blaster outperforms the railgun in a 1v1 tank battle. ive beaten two standard tanks with standard railguns at once while driving a soma as a matter of fact. Then they were bad tankers or you caught them in a weakened state. Double shield hardeners and a damage mod with a proto turret will easily out gun the exact same fit with a blaster, it just isn't a contest.
Xaviah Reaper Nyain San Renegade Alliance 257	Posted - 2014.03.04 11:33:00 - [9] - Quote General12912 wrote: guys, no matter what you say, vehicles will never be the same as they originally were. and dont whine about vehicles in the current state. CCP promised they are just going to be tweaked and stuff. just think of the current vehicles as templates. this is a fair point. But for the time being, mlt tanks need a health nerf by about 2, maybe 3k. Best game with a Python: 33kills 1 death (1.6) 24kills 1 death (1.7)
Xaviah Reaper Nyain San Renegade Alliance 257	Posted - 2014.03.04 11:37:00 - [10] - Quote I think the most important factor to take from the video, is requesting changes effects other areas of the game. All aspects have to be considered simultaneously. Best game with a Python: 33kills 1 death (1.6) 24kills 1 death (1.7)

General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 76	Posted - 2014.03.04 11:50:00 - [11] - Quote Xaviah Reaper wrote: General12912 wrote: guys, no matter what you say, vehicles will never be the same as they originally were. and dont whine about vehicles in the current state. CCP promised they are just going to be tweaked and stuff. just think of the current vehicles as templates. this is a fair point. But for the time being, mlt tanks need a health nerf by about 2, maybe 3k. militia gear is able to stand toe-to-toe with standard gear. nerfing health on mlt HAV's would take away its ability to stand toe-to-toe with standard HAV's. the thing i hate though s how cheap the mlt tanks are. they need to increase their price and make them more expensive than the regular HAV. kind of like how basic frames cost more isk than role-specific dropsuits even though the role specific ones are better. i know there are no role specific tanks, but with he suits, its because more sp was spent to get them. it should b such with HAVs too. Assault Gk.0 Gallente Federation Patriot General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
jaksol returns highland marines IMMORTAL REGIME 8	Posted - 2014.03.04 12:48:00 - [12] - Quote Dustbunny Durrr wrote: Tanks, Especially Militia and Rail Tanks are obviously OP. Militia tanks because you are getting a lot of usefulness out of 0 SP and low ISK. Rail Tanks because they can snipe other vehicles as they are coming in, and basically swat dropships in 2 shots (3 shots if the ds pilot is well fit to tank dmg) with NO projectile drop off and virtually no travel time for the projectile. Honestly, they need to replace rail turrets with some form of projectile turret that has an arc and projectile travel time (think flaylock or mass driver). This would add skill to sniping, and make it harder to repeatedly hit moving targets (such as drop ships). well I hope the my anti vehicle tank can take out your dropships that's what its for what do you think its for? killing infantry? splash damage and radius are to weak to make it truly effective for that and believe it or not the torrents are weaker then they use to be and tanks are nothing compared to how they used to be either use to be able to fit a ton more stuff on them back in beta. thou I agree militia need to be weaker for cost but the sp invested tanks are fine there's plenty of good AV players out there to kill them (believe me they assault or proto forge me all the time. thou swarms are a very unfunny joke, kind of like a fly annoying but mot very deadly) Bunny hoping stair heavy?!? THE END IS NEAR!!!!
jaksol returns highland marines IMMORTAL REGIME 8	Posted - 2014.03.04 12:57:00 - [13] - Quote Xaviah Reaper wrote: General12912 wrote: guys, no matter what you say, vehicles will never be the same as they originally were. and dont whine about vehicles in the current state. CCP promised they are just going to be tweaked and stuff. just think of the current vehicles as templates. this is a fair point. But for the time being, mlt tanks need a health nerf by about 2, maybe 3k. and we should also rename them LAVS while were at it! bro they only start out with 3 to 5k health, my LAVs have 4.5k helth as is see where im going?? and also to that guy who said make tanks cost more. they use to cost about 1 mill just for the hull belive me I was a tanker back then and I just stopped cus a forge gun that cost less then 9% of my tank can kill me with ease. Bunny hoping stair heavy?!? THE END IS NEAR!!!!
Xaviah Reaper Nyain San Renegade Alliance 257	Posted - 2014.03.04 13:07:00 - [14] - Quote General12912 wrote: Xaviah Reaper wrote: General12912 wrote: guys, no matter what you say, vehicles will never be the same as they originally were. and dont whine about vehicles in the current state. CCP promised they are just going to be tweaked and stuff. just think of the current vehicles as templates. this is a fair point. But for the time being, mlt tanks need a health nerf by about 2, maybe 3k. militia gear is able to stand toe-to-toe with standard gear. nerfing health on mlt HAV's would take away its ability to stand toe-to-toe with standard HAV's. the thing i hate though s how cheap the mlt tanks are. they need to increase their price and make them more expensive than the regular HAV. kind of like how basic frames cost more isk than role-specific dropsuits even though the role specific ones are better. i know there are no role specific tanks, but with he suits, its because more sp was spent to get them. it should b such with HAVs too. i dont think MLT and standard (two completely seperate tiers) should be equal ground. That doesnt make sense. Best game with a Python: 33kills 1 death (1.6) 24kills 1 death (1.7)
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1223	Posted - 2014.03.04 15:47:00 - [15] - Quote General12912 wrote: Harpyja wrote: Dustbunny Durrr wrote: Tanks, Especially Militia and Rail Tanks are obviously OP. Militia tanks because you are getting a lot of usefulness out of 0 SP and low ISK. Rail Tanks because they can snipe other vehicles as they are coming in, and basically swat dropships in 2 shots (3 shots if the ds pilot is well fit to tank dmg) with NO projectile drop off and virtually no travel time for the projectile. Honestly, they need to replace rail turrets with some form of projectile turret that has an arc and projectile travel time (think flaylock or mass driver). This would add skill to sniping, and make it harder to repeatedly hit moving targets (such as drop ships). Don't forget that the railgun is a beat-all against vehicles in CQC as well; there's absolutely no downside to the damn thing! It has amazing accuracy, range, and DPS which makes it OP compared to missiles and blasters, which give up a fair amount for their strengths: missiles give up range and accuracy for alpha damage (and that's all they got before they have to reload) and blasters give up DPS and range for accuracy (which makes them effective AI and ineffective AV). false. at close range, the blaster outperforms the railgun in a 1v1 tank battle. ive beaten two standard tanks with standard railguns at once while driving a soma as a matter of fact. Like someone else already said, they must've been horrible tankers then. A railgun tank will win almost any engagement hands down when piloted by someone that's half-decent. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
SILVERBACK 02 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 479	Posted - 2014.03.04 16:31:00 - [16] - Quote this is judges alt... level 0 forum warrior weapon of choice: MARK V PYTHON. -STB sky marshall
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 438	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:36:00 - [17] - Quote Judge correctly analyses the Forgegun-HAV-Dropship-Swarmlauncher conundrum that stops us from making adjustments to the balance through simple changes in DPS. As that seems to have been the aim of the linked video: Well done. However, I absolutely disagree that we need more variables, items or features to balance all vehicles against AV. Considering that CCP seems to have issues getting their heads around the current number of variables involved this strikes me as the wrong move. I'd like to raise the argument that mobility and ease of targeting are two other issues that need to be included in the equations when discussing AV-balance. One thing that stands out as extremely odd to me is that dropships have a projected surface about as large as an HAV, from certain angles even larger, take about the same time to get into cover as an HAV does but have only a fraction of their hitpoints. This means any weapon that can kill an HAV in maybe 10 seconds squats a dropship in 3 seconds. Any weapon that takes 10 seconds to kill a dropship will be ineffective against HAVs. As long as dropships and HAVs have similar mobility but unequal hitpoints there will be no balance in Dust's AV. There are many way around this, CCP just has to choose one.
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 76	Posted - 2014.03.04 21:34:00 - [18] - Quote jaksol returns wrote: Xaviah Reaper wrote: General12912 wrote: guys, no matter what you say, vehicles will never be the same as they originally were. and dont whine about vehicles in the current state. CCP promised they are just going to be tweaked and stuff. just think of the current vehicles as templates. this is a fair point. But for the time being, mlt tanks need a health nerf by about 2, maybe 3k. and we should also rename them LAVS while were at it! bro they only start out with 3 to 5k health, my LAVs have 4.5k helth as is see where im going?? and also to that guy who said make tanks cost more. they use to cost about 1 mill just for the hull belive me I was a tanker back then and I just stopped cus a forge gun that cost less then 9% of my tank can kill me with ease. i never said raise the hull price to 1mil. i just said militia tanks shold cost more isk than a standard tank hull. then i likened it to basic frames costing more than other role specific frames. the maudrugar and gunlogi tank would be less than the militia tank because sp was spent to be able to use them. also, militia tanks have guns equipped to them too. Assault Gk.0 Gallente Federation Patriot General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
Xaviah Reaper Nyain San Renegade Alliance 257	Posted - 2014.03.06 04:52:00 - [19] - Quote General12912 wrote: jaksol returns wrote: Xaviah Reaper wrote: General12912 wrote: guys, no matter what you say, vehicles will never be the same as they originally were. and dont whine about vehicles in the current state. CCP promised they are just going to be tweaked and stuff. just think of the current vehicles as templates. this is a fair point. But for the time being, mlt tanks need a health nerf by about 2, maybe 3k. and we should also rename them LAVS while were at it! bro they only start out with 3 to 5k health, my LAVs have 4.5k helth as is see where im going?? and also to that guy who said make tanks cost more. they use to cost about 1 mill just for the hull belive me I was a tanker back then and I just stopped cus a forge gun that cost less then 9% of my tank can kill me with ease. i never said raise the hull price to 1mil. i just said militia tanks shold cost more isk than a standard tank hull. then i likened it to basic frames costing more than other role specific frames. the maudrugar and gunlogi tank would be less than the militia tank because sp was spent to be able to use them. also, militia tanks have guns equipped to them too. MLT costs more than standard? thats blasphemy is very obvious tanks are broken, and ccp needs to hold the line to jump onto this major issue first. Best game with a Python: 33kills 1 death (1.6) 24kills 1 death (1.7)


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