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General12912
Gallente Marine Corps
72
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Posted - 2014.03.03 05:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
if you want an FPS that involves mostly infantry combat, go play CoD. i want to fight on a realistic sci-fi battlefield where we have to hide from things like tanks. it makes the game more fun for us in the infantry. i repspect a skilled tanker. i respect a good dropship pilot. however, the one thing i do agree with you on is the militia tank issue. either raise their price to some large amount (like 100k isk per tank, especially since they are pre-fitted) or ditch them. they are too much power for one person who hasnt put SP into tanks to have. LP tanks are another story though. i dont mind them as much cuz they r nothing more than a big thank-you for fighting for our faction. kinda like how EVE players get special things with LP too.
all-in-all, tanks and dropships should be as powerful as they are right now. just adapt. no matter what you say, CCP wont change vehicles back to their original state. vehicles wont stay this way though. CCP promised that the vehicles in their current state are just a template that will be tweaked and added upon.
Assault Gk.0
Gallente Federation Patriot
General of the Gallente Marine Corps. Look us up if you want to join.
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2986
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Posted - 2014.03.03 14:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
General12912 wrote:if you want an FPS that involves mostly infantry combat, go play CoD. i want to fight on a realistic sci-fi battlefield where we have to hide from things like tanks. it makes the game more fun for us in the infantry. i repspect a skilled tanker. i respect a good dropship pilot. however, the one thing i do agree with you on is the militia tank issue. either raise their price to some large amount (like 100k isk per tank, especially since they are pre-fitted) or ditch them. they are too much power for one person who hasnt put SP into tanks to have. LP tanks are another story though. i dont mind them as much cuz they r nothing more than a big thank-you for fighting for our faction. kinda like how EVE players get special things with LP too.
all-in-all, tanks and dropships should be as powerful as they are right now. just adapt. no matter what you say, CCP wont change vehicles back to their original state. vehicles wont stay this way though. CCP promised that the vehicles in their current state are just a template that will be tweaked and added upon.
You aren't listening to me. I don't avocate pure infantry combat. I want vehicles to have their own powerful role. The problem is balance within roles. If tanks share the same role with infantry they simply can't be what tanks should be or they unbalance the game.
If you seperate the tank role from infantry killing, give it a role like breaching defenses and blowing up bunkers, then it can be very immune from infantry. But if tanks compete directly with infantry, if you drive around shooting one merc at a time you can't be 3-4 times as strong as your opponent (especially in a low team count game like DUST) without tilting the battlefield.
It's fun rolling around in a beast of a tank slaughtering infantry, but it breaks the game. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
2794
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Posted - 2014.03.04 11:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Skihids wrote:If AI tanks are so useless, then why all the complaints? If they are a non factor then nobody would miss them.
Of course some maps render them less than useful, that's not the point. The tragedy is they don't have a unique role of their own. They compete directly with infantry and are either far superior or they can't participate at all.
I said lolambush is a nonfactor
Maps render AI tanks useless but thats not the point? but it is, we will have a variety of maps which play to different playstyles and because 1 playstyle is dominate on 1 map it doesnt need to be nerfed
Last i checked infantry is needed to hack a point, cant win a skim/domo/FW/PC match with all tanks unless you go for the clone count but if they have places to hide then you cant even do that
They only compete with infantry for kills and scan assists but thats it, they cant hack a point or even hold a point if they cant shoot the console and if they cant kill infantry how are they supposed to defend themselves from AV?
If you want tanks just to kill other tanks then atm its pointless because then what is the point of tanks?
You really want COD 514 Space edition?
Intelligence is OP
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
183
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Posted - 2014.03.04 11:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tanks can hack? Tanks can repair heavies for example? Tanks can deploy equipment? Tanks can go underground and into/inside tight spaces? Current tank role is killing and scanning only, problem is that infantry can kill tanks and dropsuits faster and can scan more accurately and farther. However I do agree with adding environments that can be destroyed for tactical advantages.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 tanks, you will be missed.
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MarasdF Loron
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
185
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Posted - 2014.03.04 11:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Rework blasters as AV, and nearly all the tank QQ will disappear. And the need for tanks will also go away.
Also to whoever said that tanks need to be just as easily killable as infantry if they are to be competing against infantry with infantry kills: tanks can already be one shot killed by infantry, blasters cannot one shot any infantry. Just stahp.
R.I.P. Pre-1.7 tanks, you will be missed.
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2994
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Posted - 2014.03.05 17:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Rework blasters as AV, and nearly all the tank QQ will disappear. And the need for tanks will also go away. Also to whoever said that tanks need to be just as easily killable as infantry if they are to be competing against infantry with infantry kills: tanks can already be one shot killed by infantry, blasters cannot one shot any infantry. Just stahp.
I said that every fitting in a given role needs to be balanced, though its not a shocking or original claim. I would hope that it's fairly obvious. What's not immediately obvious is that unlike real world tanks, DUST tanks occupy the same environmental niche as infantry. That's the root cause for all the balance problems.
Yes, if you do nothing but remove the large blaster turret you have a problem because there really is only one role in the game. If you can't hunt infantry you don't have much to do.
The answer of course is to give tanks another role. No modern military dispatches main battle tanks to kill a simple squad of infantry. Tanks blow up big stuff. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to do things that infantry can't?
Of course this requires game development. The thing is we desperately need more roles in DUST, more stuff to do. |
The-Errorist
550
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Posted - 2014.03.07 00:34:00 -
[37] - Quote
Skihids wrote:There is no way to balance vehicles when they compete for the same role as a dropsuit. All versions of a role need to be equally powerful or you need to use the best one to be competitive. Right now blaster tanks are the best fitting for slaying infantry. Try an Ambush match if you still require convincing. MLT Somas cost about what any other ADV suits cost, are more powerful than any PRO suit, and require zero SP. STD HAVs bump the price, SP, and power level. That's why ADV and PRO vehicles are totally unthinkable. You can't balance these two as long as they are sharing the same role.
It's not just tanks though, dropships need to stop competing with infantry for kills and start assisting infantry make assaults. I've said it many times before, but it bears repeating. The best weapon a dropship has is a squad of mercs armed to the teeth.
Differentiation is a good idea.
Why does a game get boring? Because it doesn't have enough challenges to master. DUST has one basic game mode and one way to achieve it. Slay infantry by shooting face with the highest DPS available. Fun for a while, but it pales after a few months. Give vehicles new roles of their own and you vastly expand a players options for fun AND make combat more complex and fun for everyone.
It's going to require game development.
Without destructible environments tanks won't have much to do. Defenders need to be in possession of fortifications at he start of a match to give them a reason to blow stuff up and breach walls.
Communication will need to be improved before a dropship pilot can entice and load assault squad for an effective drop, especially in public matches.
We will need new game modes that either require or benefit greatly from vehicle use. We need infantry rooting for vehicles on their side, not cursing them for hogging all the kills.
You will know when you have gotten it right because you will be able to lift all artificial vehicle limits.
You won't find six tanks in Ambush and you may find none, simply because players won't have much to do in one. In other modes you will find a natural balance as players decide for themselves that there are already enough of some type of vehicle for the job and they would find slim pickings if they called in another.
CCP, please acknowledge you understand this vital point.
Tanks had the role of helping attackers breach through the several installations and destroy defense relay (now gone), in the multistage Skirmish 1.0 game mode (also gone), so the attacker's MCC doesn't get shot down before it advances (they were really mobile command centers) and dock with the main outpost.
If CCP can get skirmish 3.0 finished, tanks would have a better role again at least in 1 game mode. |
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