DUST Search - Vehicles need to compliment infantry, not compete with them

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Skihids wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Skihids wrote:

You don't really give up your tank bashing ability with blasters. You can still fight tanks as well as infantry. Plenty of people manage it as the blaster tank can take advantage of its turret speed to dance around a rail tank and stay away from its main gun.

Tanks are just meat inside a small bag inside another bag.

The problem is the blaster tank is great at everything while its main opponent is crippled against it.

The problem is demonstrated by the fact that we have a vehicle cap and without it we would get Ambush matches with 100% tanks on at least one side. When you have to artificially limit a role you know it's OP.

Yes i do

I do not have a blaster which can inflict over 1k of pure dmg against another tank, against a shield tank or even a maddy if i cant break the regen or the rep rate i wont kill it, i would need help from AV or another tank or even an ADS

We had a vehicle cap when vehicles were pure crap, what does that prove?

It doesn't matter if another tank can counter you or not, that question is irrelevant. Lets just say I concede your point and rail tanks are your natural predator that you can never escape.

Your role then is 100% AI. You compete directly with infantry for infantry kills. Therefore your fitting must be balanced with any other person playing that role. That means you are just as vulnerable one-on-one with any other infantry unit. No fair saying that only some small percentage of infantry can hurt you when you can hurt them all. No fair saying that if they can hurt you they can't hurt other infantry.

Forget for a moment the outward aspects of your suit and concentrate on the role. Design the balance with the thought that your opponent gets to chose which role you play and which role he plays after you make your choices. If you make one all powerful he will chose that and give you the weak one. Do that honestly and you will see that tanks can't be AI focused and still remain recognizable as tanks.

Last i checked a Tank isnt an Infantry suit

I may compete with infantry for infantry kills but thats because i fitted up my tank to do so with enough defense to try and keep of a tank attack or live long enough for backup

New eden isnt fair


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Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2921	Posted - 2014.02.26 22:48:00 - [1] - Quote There is no way to balance vehicles when they compete for the same role as a dropsuit. All versions of a role need to be equally powerful or you need to use the best one to be competitive. Right now blaster tanks are the best fitting for slaying infantry. Try an Ambush match if you still require convincing. MLT Somas cost about what any other ADV suits cost, are more powerful than any PRO suit, and require zero SP. STD HAVs bump the price, SP, and power level. That's why ADV and PRO vehicles are totally unthinkable. You can't balance these two as long as they are sharing the same role. It's not just tanks though, dropships need to stop competing with infantry for kills and start assisting infantry make assaults. I've said it many times before, but it bears repeating. The best weapon a dropship has is a squad of mercs armed to the teeth. Differentiation is a good idea. Why does a game get boring? Because it doesn't have enough challenges to master. DUST has one basic game mode and one way to achieve it. Slay infantry by shooting face with the highest DPS available. Fun for a while, but it pales after a few months. Give vehicles new roles of their own and you vastly expand a players options for fun AND make combat more complex and fun for everyone. It's going to require game development. Without destructible environments tanks won't have much to do. Defenders need to be in possession of fortifications at he start of a match to give them a reason to blow stuff up and breach walls. Communication will need to be improved before a dropship pilot can entice and load assault squad for an effective drop, especially in public matches. We will need new game modes that either require or benefit greatly from vehicle use. We need infantry rooting for vehicles on their side, not cursing them for hogging all the kills. You will know when you have gotten it right because you will be able to lift all artificial vehicle limits. You won't find six tanks in Ambush and you may find none, simply because players won't have much to do in one. In other modes you will find a natural balance as players decide for themselves that there are already enough of some type of vehicle for the job and they would find slim pickings if they called in another. CCP, please acknowledge you understand this vital point.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2924	Posted - 2014.02.27 18:05:00 - [2] - Quote I wasn't advocating or suggesting most folks were advocating for ADV and PRO tiers of vehicles. I was using it as a way to compare it to the dropsuit. If the MLT version of the HAV was better than the PRO version of the suit, imagine what the PRO version of the vehicle.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2931	Posted - 2014.02.28 16:43:00 - [3] - Quote You simply can't have one class of infantry killing suit that splits its opponents into two classes, one that can't touch it, and the other that can, but now at a big disadvantage to defending itself against other infantry. That split magnifies its advantage over enemy infantry by splitting it into two groups. If you chose a weapon capable of fighting the tank you are still vulnerable to the tank but now you make yourself even more vulnerable to other infantry. The tank suit doesn't have to make any choice. It is equally effective at killing AV infantry as it is killing AI infantry.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2931	Posted - 2014.02.28 17:16:00 - [4] - Quote You can still run a small logistics role that doesn't depend on shooting faces by concentrating on equipment deployment, but it will be harder in 1.8 with the equipment nerfs and the need to skill into multiple races, half of which are unsuited to the equipment types assigned to them. Then there are those who continue to call for dramatic reductions in concurrent deployment. That makes me reluctant to lend all the extra SP required to continue the role in 1.8.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2932	Posted - 2014.02.28 17:42:00 - [5] - Quote If multi-level cities solve everything we can eliminate vehicle caps and everything will be fine because nothing will be so demonstrably better that everyone will want to use it. But no, most levels are dominated by open ground. Tanks as they are today aren't meant to go hunting infantry one at a time. That's not their role. They don't use their main gun to kill one infantry unit at a time. So why do DUST tanks do that? Because CCP doesn't have a real role for them, that's why.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2932	Posted - 2014.02.28 18:27:00 - [6] - Quote Let's see what CCP does when they deploy PvE. What happens when they are on the other side and we bring in seven blaster tanks? Can we tell them to "Get Good" when we mow down rank after rank of drones who are unable to scratch our armor, while our other teammates sit back and snipe any AV they bring out? That will be telling.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2939	Posted - 2014.02.28 19:21:00 - [7] - Quote You don't really give up your tank bashing ability with blasters. You can still fight tanks as well as infantry. Plenty of people manage it as the blaster tank can take advantage of its turret speed to dance around a rail tank and stay away from its main gun. Tanks are just meat inside a small bag inside another bag. The problem is the blaster tank is great at everything while its main opponent is crippled against it. The problem is demonstrated by the fact that we have a vehicle cap and without it we would get Ambush matches with 100% tanks on at least one side. When you have to artificially limit a role you know it's OP.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2942	Posted - 2014.02.28 19:41:00 - [8] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Skihids wrote: You don't really give up your tank bashing ability with blasters. You can still fight tanks as well as infantry. Plenty of people manage it as the blaster tank can take advantage of its turret speed to dance around a rail tank and stay away from its main gun. Tanks are just meat inside a small bag inside another bag. The problem is the blaster tank is great at everything while its main opponent is crippled against it. The problem is demonstrated by the fact that we have a vehicle cap and without it we would get Ambush matches with 100% tanks on at least one side. When you have to artificially limit a role you know it's OP. So now you think you know how to tank? Problem is, doing that doesn't work on a real tanker. It doesn't work on redline rail tankers, no. But the rail tank wouldn't last very long if it came down into a fight with 16 blaster tanks which is what you would have without the artificial limit. In reality you would probably have a mix of blaster and rail tanks on each side. The precise composition would evolve over time. It would start blaster heavy until the other side gave up on infantry, then turn into pure rail on rail as infantry became extinct.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2943	Posted - 2014.02.28 19:53:00 - [9] - Quote And that's the issue. One man is great at murdering all infantry, both those who gimp themselves to fight them and those with no ability to hurt them. It's great that rails can hunt blasters, but that simply throws your hands up in the air and gives up on allowing infantry to defend themselves. It becomes a case of needing tanks to fight tanks which are always better than infantry. The end result is infantry going extinct and ending up with WoT but for the artificial limit. If you want to keep the AI role for tanks you can't split up its opposition. You would have to allow everyone to carry AV as well as AI, after all, the tank can kill both AI and AV infantry. Allowing only a few of your enemy to hurt you is simply too great an advantage, especially when those folks are at a greater disadvantage toward their own kind.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2957	Posted - 2014.02.28 23:41:00 - [10] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Skihids wrote: You don't really give up your tank bashing ability with blasters. You can still fight tanks as well as infantry. Plenty of people manage it as the blaster tank can take advantage of its turret speed to dance around a rail tank and stay away from its main gun. Tanks are just meat inside a small bag inside another bag. The problem is the blaster tank is great at everything while its main opponent is crippled against it. The problem is demonstrated by the fact that we have a vehicle cap and without it we would get Ambush matches with 100% tanks on at least one side. When you have to artificially limit a role you know it's OP. Yes i do I do not have a blaster which can inflict over 1k of pure dmg against another tank, against a shield tank or even a maddy if i cant break the regen or the rep rate i wont kill it, i would need help from AV or another tank or even an ADS We had a vehicle cap when vehicles were pure crap, what does that prove? It doesn't matter if another tank can counter you or not, that question is irrelevant. Lets just say I concede your point and rail tanks are your natural predator that you can never escape. Your role then is 100% AI. You compete directly with infantry for infantry kills. Therefore your fitting must be balanced with any other person playing that role. That means you are just as vulnerable one-on-one with any other infantry unit. No fair saying that only some small percentage of infantry can hurt you when you can hurt them all. No fair saying that if they can hurt you they can't hurt other infantry. Forget for a moment the outward aspects of your suit and concentrate on the role. Design the balance with the thought that your opponent gets to chose which role you play and which role he plays after you make your choices. If you make one all powerful he will chose that and give you the weak one. Do that honestly and you will see that tanks can't be AI focused and still remain recognizable as tanks.

Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2972	Posted - 2014.03.01 17:11:00 - [11] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Skihids wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Skihids wrote: You don't really give up your tank bashing ability with blasters. You can still fight tanks as well as infantry. Plenty of people manage it as the blaster tank can take advantage of its turret speed to dance around a rail tank and stay away from its main gun. Tanks are just meat inside a small bag inside another bag. The problem is the blaster tank is great at everything while its main opponent is crippled against it. The problem is demonstrated by the fact that we have a vehicle cap and without it we would get Ambush matches with 100% tanks on at least one side. When you have to artificially limit a role you know it's OP. Yes i do I do not have a blaster which can inflict over 1k of pure dmg against another tank, against a shield tank or even a maddy if i cant break the regen or the rep rate i wont kill it, i would need help from AV or another tank or even an ADS We had a vehicle cap when vehicles were pure crap, what does that prove? It doesn't matter if another tank can counter you or not, that question is irrelevant. Lets just say I concede your point and rail tanks are your natural predator that you can never escape. Your role then is 100% AI. You compete directly with infantry for infantry kills. Therefore your fitting must be balanced with any other person playing that role. That means you are just as vulnerable one-on-one with any other infantry unit. No fair saying that only some small percentage of infantry can hurt you when you can hurt them all. No fair saying that if they can hurt you they can't hurt other infantry. Forget for a moment the outward aspects of your suit and concentrate on the role. Design the balance with the thought that your opponent gets to chose which role you play and which role he plays after you make your choices. If you make one all powerful he will chose that and give you the weak one. Do that honestly and you will see that tanks can't be AI focused and still remain recognizable as tanks. Last i checked a Tank isnt an Infantry suit I may compete with infantry for infantry kills but thats because i fitted up my tank to do so with enough defense to try and keep of a tank attack or live long enough for backup New eden isnt fair Outward appearance aside, your blaster tank is playing the part of a dropsuit. It shares the same game role of infantry slayer as any other dropsuit. The role is the relevant factor here, not the shape. When someone chooses to shoot others in the face they have the option of many suits. Each has different strengths and weaknesses, but all are somewhat balanced against each other such that there is no clear winner. You can go heavy, Assault, or Scout depending on your play style. Or you can go blaster tank. It fills the same role. If you go that route you get a fitting with far more eHP, DPS, and speed than any other option. It is immune to the majority of your opponent's weapons. It's so superior that there is no reason not to choose it if you want to win the fight. There is a reason Ambush is a tank fest, it's the clear choice. So yeah, keep it the same and we will get DUST WoT.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2975	Posted - 2014.03.02 19:26:00 - [12] - Quote If AI tanks are so useless, then why all the complaints? If they are a non factor then nobody would miss them. Of course some maps render them less than useful, that's not the point. The tragedy is they don't have a unique role of their own. They compete directly with infantry and are either far superior or they can't participate at all.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2986	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:45:00 - [13] - Quote General12912 wrote: if you want an FPS that involves mostly infantry combat, go play CoD. i want to fight on a realistic sci-fi battlefield where we have to hide from things like tanks. it makes the game more fun for us in the infantry. i repspect a skilled tanker. i respect a good dropship pilot. however, the one thing i do agree with you on is the militia tank issue. either raise their price to some large amount (like 100k isk per tank, especially since they are pre-fitted) or ditch them. they are too much power for one person who hasnt put SP into tanks to have. LP tanks are another story though. i dont mind them as much cuz they r nothing more than a big thank-you for fighting for our faction. kinda like how EVE players get special things with LP too. all-in-all, tanks and dropships should be as powerful as they are right now. just adapt. no matter what you say, CCP wont change vehicles back to their original state. vehicles wont stay this way though. CCP promised that the vehicles in their current state are just a template that will be tweaked and added upon. You aren't listening to me. I don't avocate pure infantry combat. I want vehicles to have their own powerful role. The problem is balance within roles. If tanks share the same role with infantry they simply can't be what tanks should be or they unbalance the game. If you seperate the tank role from infantry killing, give it a role like breaching defenses and blowing up bunkers, then it can be very immune from infantry. But if tanks compete directly with infantry, if you drive around shooting one merc at a time you can't be 3-4 times as strong as your opponent (especially in a low team count game like DUST) without tilting the battlefield. It's fun rolling around in a beast of a tank slaughtering infantry, but it breaks the game.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2994	Posted - 2014.03.05 17:10:00 - [14] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Rework blasters as AV, and nearly all the tank QQ will disappear. And the need for tanks will also go away. Also to whoever said that tanks need to be just as easily killable as infantry if they are to be competing against infantry with infantry kills: tanks can already be one shot killed by infantry, blasters cannot one shot any infantry. Just stahp. I said that every fitting in a given role needs to be balanced, though its not a shocking or original claim. I would hope that it's fairly obvious. What's not immediately obvious is that unlike real world tanks, DUST tanks occupy the same environmental niche as infantry. That's the root cause for all the balance problems. Yes, if you do nothing but remove the large blaster turret you have a problem because there really is only one role in the game. If you can't hunt infantry you don't have much to do. The answer of course is to give tanks another role. No modern military dispatches main battle tanks to kill a simple squad of infantry. Tanks blow up big stuff. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to do things that infantry can't? Of course this requires game development. The thing is we desperately need more roles in DUST, more stuff to do.