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Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2901
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Posted - 2014.02.25 14:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
The problem is that tanks are mainly AI, killing one merc at a time just like the guy carrying an AR.
They aren't blowing up fortifications, they aren't knocking down walls or taking out bunkers or towers. No they are wandering around blasting one soldier at a time. That's the role of infantry, making tanks in my book simply oversized dropsuits.
A dropsuit with far more eHP, speed, and DPS than any other suit. Yes, it does have a couple drawbacks: it can be targeted by swarms and it can't drive everywhere, but it shrugs off light weapons and fat suits can't jump a small ledge either.
It's the role, not the shape or the name that matters. The tanks in the game today are playing the same role as infantry, but in a totally different class of suit. Therein lies the problem.
Tank drivers want a degree of invulnerability beyond their current role, and hey have it. Play an ambush with six tanks on the other side and you will immediately see the force multiplication they bestow. If you keep their role the same, you will be forced to make them far more vulnerable. They are competing one-on-one with infantry after all. That means soloable by one merc.
Alternatively you could change their role to blowing up bigger stuff that infantry can't. Differentiate them. Don't let them mow down one merc at a time with their main cannons. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2905
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 17:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem is that tanks aren't acting like tanks, they act just like infantry suits.
They have a main gun that they use to kill one merc at a time. They chase them down and kill them one at a time, one right after the other.
THEY OCCUPY THE EXACT SAME ROLE ON THE BATTLEFIELD
You don't need a tank for any special purpose. You don't say to yourself, "Oh I've got to bust that bunker, I'll call in a tank".
No, you say to yourself, "Hmm, I'd like to go on a murder rampage so I'll call in a blaster tank."
Is that your fault as a tank driver? Is that a major character flaw on your part? No.
It's CCP's fault for not giving the tank (or dropship for that matter) a real differentiated role on the battlefield.
We basically have one game mode (TDM) with slight variations (objectives to keep the battle in one area), and that mode requires nothing more than straight up DPS. No side objectives, no other requirements other than "Shoot face with more DPS".
With nothing else to do tanks just become super dropsuits. An OP class of infantry rather than a distinct role.
It shows in Ambush. Why would anyone do anything but call in a blaster tank? More importantly, why would you not? What would restrict you from doing so? Nothing but an artificial vehicle count, that's what!
Now if tanks had differentiation you wouldn't need artificial restrictions. You would say to yourself, "Oh, we already have two tanks on the field, I'll go infantry because I'm not needed in a tank." Right now you say, "The only task in this game is shooting face with high DPS, so I'll pull out my blaster tank."
You are competing directly with infantry. What do they think when on the ground with six tanks on their side? Is it "Oh cool, they will assist me in getting my infantry kills in"? No, it's "Oh damn, they are going to hog all the kills this match!"
Tanks need a different role. They desperately need game modes and maps that require them to get the job done.
If they continue to compete directly with infantry then they need exactly the same degree of vulnerability to the lone infantry unit. I don't think tank drivers want that. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2906
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Price, name, and description doesn't matter, it's the role.
What we have is suit "A" and suit "B" that are competing directly for the same game role: slaying infantry.
Suit "A" is faster than suit "B". Suit "A" has an order more magnitude eHP than suit "B". Suit "A" can carry a gun that puts out an order of magnitude more DPS then suit "B". Suit "A" has a natural resistance to most any weapon carried by suit "B". Those weapons it is vulnerable to gimp the user when going up against other users of suit "B".
Suit "A" does have a vastly larger hitbox, but it's got immunity from most weapons as compensation, and has hardeners and extra speed to get out of dodge when needed.
So one would be foolish to choose suit "B" for that role. The only thing keeping people from choosing suit "A" before was high cost, but that's gone.
I'm actually surprised that I don't see suit "A" being used by everyone in Ambush where there is no other role than slaying infantry. It makes me think that players are being foolish or stubborn rather than optimizing their chances. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2906
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 18:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Pisidon Gmen wrote:[
You wanted the changes. Why aren't you happy with them? change is good when it changes small things over time changing every thing at 1 time was stupid
But that's what infantry wanted. Everything redone now, instead of changing over time. As a result, we have no specialized ground vehicles.
Why can't infantry be happy with the changes they forced on CCP?[/quote]
CCP was never forced to make tanks compete for the same game role as infantry. That's all on them. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2919
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vehicles need to compliment infantry, not compete with them. It's not only required, it's a good idea.
There is no way to balance vehicles when they compete for the same role as a dropsuit. All versions of a role need to be equally powerful or you need to use the best one to be competitive. Right now blaster tanks are the best fitting for slaying infantry. Try an Ambush match if you still require convincing. MLT Somas cost about what any other ADV suits cost, are more powerful than any PRO suit, and require zero SP. STD HAVs bump the price, SP, and power level. That's why ADV and PRO vehicles are totally unthinkable. You can't balance these two as long as they are sharing the same role.
It's not just tanks though, dropships need to stop competing with infantry for kills and start assisting infantry make assaults. I've said it many times before, but it bears repeating. The best weapon a dropship has is a squad of mercs armed to the teeth.
Differentiation is a good idea.
Why does a game get boring? Because it doesn't have enough challenges to master. DUST has one basic game mode and one way to achieve it. Slay infantry by shooting face with the highest DPS available. Fun for a while, but it pales after a few months. Give vehicles new roles of their own and you vastly expand a players options for fun AND make combat more complex and fun for everyone.
It's going to require game development.
Without destructible environments tanks won't have much to do. Defenders need to be in possession of fortifications at he start of a match to give them a reason to blow stuff up and breach walls.
Communication will need to be improved before a dropship pilot can entice and load assault squad for an effective drop, especially in public matches.
We will need new game modes that either require or benefit greatly from vehicle use. We need infantry rooting for vehicles on their side, not cursing them for hogging all the kills.
You will know when you have gotten it right because you will be able to lift all artificial vehicle limits.
You won't find six tanks in Ambush and you may find none, simply because players won't have much to do in one. In other modes you will find a natural balance as players decide for themselves that there are already enough of some type of vehicle for the job and they would find slim pickings if they called in another.
CCP, please acknowledge you understand this vital point. |
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