DUST Search - General Concerns and Issues with DUST/CCP/COMMUNITY

CCP Saberwing wrote:

Rinzler XVIII wrote:

The players just don't get an opportunity to get their voices heard which is why I hate the CPMs and their roles within the community. They basically give CCP an excuse to not talk to the players directly and instead converse with people they cherry picked to be our voices and often alot of player concerns are overlooked or not fought for strongly enough because certain CPMs may not feel the same way as the community.

We desperately need better lines of communication between the players and the DEVs, look at the respec discussion thread .. why hasn't a DEV come out and said we are dragging our feet about giving an infantry respec because of X Y Z or we aren't giving one because of X Y Z so the players and DEVs can actually talk it through and make sure if it was given that it was done properley ? The player base are the real testers of this game so why do CCP ignore us and not engage with us ?

-Right now there is no-one actively holding CCP to account or making them question how they are doing things and personally I feel that they are getting let off way to lightly. This game has fantastic potential, if I didn't believe that then I wouldn't still be playing this game which is why when I see the same mistakes being repeated and still people are praising them it's extremely disappointing because no one prominent is actively criticising them for all the bad things that they've done.

Hi Rinzler. Let me address some of your points -

- Players do get heard. We patrol our forums continuously (even if every thread doesn't necessarily have a response!) What is difficult to understand on the flip side is the sheer level of noise out there - and that's why the CPM serve as a fantastic barometer for overall Community temperature.

- There are several lines of communication between players and Developers - to say otherwise is simply not true. Many of us go out of our way to interact with players across numerous channels. I've recently set up the in-game DevHangout channel (and frequent it several times per week), spend time in the #DUST514 IRC, and personally reply to almost every Facebook message to the DUST 514 page. Many of us even use our personal Twitter/social media accounts to interact with players. It's important to remember that not everyone has the thick skin required to interact with players, but those of us that do really enjoy it.

On the topic of respecs, I have mentioned in numerous threads that a decision has not yet been reached and that I'll provide you with an update when I know more. For the record - the CPM are also pushing on this. :)

- We are absolutely holding ourselves accountable and question everything we are doing. The arrival of CCP Rouge has completely revamped our Development Process and I've never felt more confident in the future of DUST (even though I've only been here for about 6 months!). To say that we do not face criticism is again not only untrue but also unfair, because the Developers that take the time to interact with players face more than their fair share every day.

I hope that answers some of the questions you have.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:40:00 - [1] - Quote TL;DR Just want to get a few things off my chest, I don't expect anyone to care or even read it all .. or even respond The players just don't get an opportunity to get their voices heard which is why I hate the CPMs and their roles within the community. They basically give CCP an excuse to not talk to the players directly and instead converse with people they cherry picked to be our voices and often alot of player concerns are overlooked or not fought for strongly enough because certain CPMs may not feel the same way as the community. We desperately need better lines of communication between the players and the DEVs, look at the respec discussion thread .. why hasn't a DEV come out and said we are dragging our feet about giving an infantry respec because of X Y Z or we aren't giving one because of X Y Z so the players and DEVs can actually talk it through and make sure if it was given that it was done properley ? The player base are the real testers of this game so why do CCP ignore us and not engage with us ? -We have an autocracy using the facade of a democracy. Those in positions of 'power' will always cater to the interests of those who put them in that position in the 1st place hence the CCP love in I see from prominent members in the community despite all of the mistakes that have been made and keep being made. -Right now there is no-one actively holding CCP to account or making them question how they are doing things and personally I feel that they are getting let off way to lightly. This game has fantastic potential, if I didn't believe that then I wouldn't still be playing this game which is why when I see the same mistakes being repeated and still people are praising them it's extremely disappointing because no one prominent is actively criticising them for all the bad things that they've done. -The Tank 100% Nitrous mistake is absolutely horrific for a company of CCPs stature, being added at 100% n the 1st place is a minor mistake that is completely understandable but for that to then be added into the game is a total shambles .. did no-one check the changes before the patch was implemented ? These are absolute basics .. you add a change and you check it to make sure it's correct and then you confirm that it is right and patch it into the game. I'm not even talking about it actually being game tested either and whilst I think not game testing new content or changes is a fail I can understand they are restricted somewhat by Sony QA. -Balance will never be achieved until core fundamentals and mechanics are set in place. CCP need to decide on what they want this game to be and then stick with it, with the addition of AA and improved hit detection TTK dropped drastically and speed tanking died to be replaced with Dual Tanking and high eHP Armor suits.1.8 damage is being reduced and with certain suits gaining resistances to certain weapon types this will increase TTK, by how much ? No-one will know, not even CCP until 1.8 drops and we get to 'test' the game for them and this is the curse of not play testing updates and patches before release. What if TTK is increased by too much and it takes a minute of 3 people firing to kill someone ? Does that mean 1.9 will see damage increased and resistances reduced to reduce TTK again ? Changes introduced that improve the game are great, repeated changes to the same thing because you can't balance it due to a lack of testing isn't and is one of the most frustrating things a game developer can do to it's player base ! -The decisions matter argument, I'm tired of listening to the flawed logic of mad men so I'm going to end this once and for all ... If the only changes to the game are the addition of new content then your decisions matter however when sweeping changes are made to existing content that fundamentally change the playstyle of that suit/weapon/vehicle then your decisions DON'T matter because what you end up with is something you skilled into for X Y Z reason and now that reason is no longer applicable and therefore a previously informed decision that you made has been rendered pointless as the information that you based that decision on has been changed. EG If you were to invest into a business based on market trends, research, economics, accounts, share prices that specialised in producing electronic goods and then 1 year down the line they suddenly switched to selling soil which renders all the previous information you based the decision on meaningless you'd expect the option to pull your investment out of that business before they switched what the core of the business actually does. If you were told that you couldn't get your investment back because 'Your decisions matter' you'd shoot that argument down right there and then and maybe even the person telling you 'Your decisions matter' as well. If your for or against an SP Refund then thats your prerogative but try and use a real reason that your against it rather than this argument, it doesn't cut the mustard anymore Phew that's all for now
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2014.02.25 03:50:00 - [2] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: swig. 'Passes a fresh beer' Sorry I guess I got carried away there
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 65	Posted - 2014.02.25 04:15:00 - [3] - Quote Canari Elphus wrote: CPM - With the elections coming up, now is your time to vote to elect the CPM candidate that best represents your views. I highly recommend to everyone to visit the council's chambers to see what they have to say and watch out for any new candidates that might be to your liking. QA Testing - Might as well not bother here. Sony wont allow CCP to create a test server that players can use and CCP doesnt play the game enough themselves to have any understanding of what works and what doesnt. Communication - Same as QA. People have been crying for better communication for the past year and all we got were a couple of trolls and a team that states "we are aware of the problem and are looking into it". The CPM is handcuffed by a NDA so they arent allowed to say anything that isnt vetted by CCP. Elections are popularity contests not indicators of competency and the person that best represents my views is myself which is probably true for everyone. I know which is why I didn't say anything about RR/CR balance issues or Tank v AV balance issues but mistakes like 100% nitrous boost didn't need to be game tested to see that it was broken as a simple 2nd look would have rectified the problem and they are things that shouldn't happen in any company. Communications between CCP and the players is my concern, I'm completely discounting the CPMs due to the NDA and the NDA is one of the reasons I feel that we really don't need a CPM at all. CCP are the ones that need to engage with us more and they are the ones who can actually give us answers or feedback. BTW I'm not having a go at you, I realise that I didn't explain my points in the OP in great depth so I'm just trying to add some clarity to my points in relation to the points you brought up so thanks for the response
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 98	Posted - 2014.02.25 19:27:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Rinzler XVIII wrote: The players just don't get an opportunity to get their voices heard which is why I hate the CPMs and their roles within the community. They basically give CCP an excuse to not talk to the players directly and instead converse with people they cherry picked to be our voices and often alot of player concerns are overlooked or not fought for strongly enough because certain CPMs may not feel the same way as the community. We desperately need better lines of communication between the players and the DEVs, look at the respec discussion thread .. why hasn't a DEV come out and said we are dragging our feet about giving an infantry respec because of X Y Z or we aren't giving one because of X Y Z so the players and DEVs can actually talk it through and make sure if it was given that it was done properley ? The player base are the real testers of this game so why do CCP ignore us and not engage with us ? -Right now there is no-one actively holding CCP to account or making them question how they are doing things and personally I feel that they are getting let off way to lightly. This game has fantastic potential, if I didn't believe that then I wouldn't still be playing this game which is why when I see the same mistakes being repeated and still people are praising them it's extremely disappointing because no one prominent is actively criticising them for all the bad things that they've done. Hi Rinzler. Let me address some of your points - - Players do get heard. We patrol our forums continuously (even if every thread doesn't necessarily have a response!) What is difficult to understand on the flip side is the sheer level of noise out there - and that's why the CPM serve as a fantastic barometer for overall Community temperature. - There are several lines of communication between players and Developers - to say otherwise is simply not true. Many of us go out of our way to interact with players across numerous channels. I've recently set up the in-game DevHangout channel (and frequent it several times per week), spend time in the #DUST514 IRC, and personally reply to almost every Facebook message to the DUST 514 page. Many of us even use our personal Twitter/social media accounts to interact with players. It's important to remember that not everyone has the thick skin required to interact with players, but those of us that do really enjoy it. On the topic of respecs, I have mentioned in numerous threads that a decision has not yet been reached and that I'll provide you with an update when I know more. For the record - the CPM are also pushing on this. :) - We are absolutely holding ourselves accountable and question everything we are doing. The arrival of CCP Rouge has completely revamped our Development Process and I've never felt more confident in the future of DUST (even though I've only been here for about 6 months!). To say that we do not face criticism is again not only untrue but also unfair, because the Developers that take the time to interact with players face more than their fair share every day. I hope that answers some of the questions you have. Thanks for the response although I do still have some responses to the points you made -Without being responded too the only way players know that they are being heard is when their ideas are implemented but this very rarely happens and is why to most of the player base, it feels like we are constantly ignored. You could add a little marker on the forums for each topic that gets a tick next to it when a DEV has visited it so at least the players know it has been looked at. I can accept that you may be too busy to make a response or indeed can't make a response due to vetting and NDA restrictions but knowing that it has at least been looked at would ease peoples minds, right now we have nothing but your word and with the current problems with the game like broken PC perma locking or matchmaking which have been around for a while and have been discussed in great detail by the community and still nothing has been done about them, it gives the impression that it is't being dealt with. When you add into that Soon TM and a history of taking months to get round to simple fixes the players start losing faith and we end up with the general disdain for 'We are looking into it' and as a result the community makes alot of noise and makes alot of complaints. This isn't due to the community being awful or horrible it is purely due to the frustration they feel when they see the same mistakes being repeated and is why we'd like more engagement between CCP and the players. Let's be frank here .. the players want this game to succeed just as much as CCP and is why the community is so vocal .. if they didn't care and wanted the game to fail they simply wouldn't play it. CCP need to stop treating us like fools and realise that as people who play this game (Alot more than CCP do) we can help them make this game into a success and maybe realise the pre BETA potential that got me playing this game in the 1st place. Afterall we are your target market and who better to improve the game than the very people your trying to 'sell' it too. - In regards to CCP Rouge we really will have to wait and see, 1.7 has been horrible .. (I'm infantry so yeah .. OP Tanks for 3 months was never going to make me go crazy for the game but thats a side issue) and we have had to deal with it for nearly 3 months and I haven't noticed anything different since CCP Rouge began his role. We have no idea what his intentions for the game are or what the roadmap is, we still aren't being informed on a regular basis about anything game related, we are still seeing glaring balance issues being made time and time again, we are still being told Soon TM. Actions speak louder than words and CCP haven't done anything different with CCP Rouge than they did previously.
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 100	Posted - 2014.02.25 20:03:00 - [5] - Quote Continued - That is just a standard Soon TM response which I am immune to, If you can't answer how and when then it's a waste of your time and my time. The point I was making wasn't about whether we should or shouldn't get an infantry SP refund it was saying that you clearly have some issues with granting one so it would be far better if these doubts or issues were expressed to the community. All it would take would be a 10 minute meeting where your doubts were noted down and then posted on the forums so we know why your finding it so hard to make a decision about it and it could be discussed amongst the players/CPMs/DEVS to reach a general consensus of possible alternatives or solutions. Right now we have no idea what is holding CCP back from making what a majority of the community thinks is a pretty easy decision. It isn't the lack of a definitive conclusion about yes or no to an SP refund it is the lack of communication about how the decision being reached. Anyway thanks for the response, even if we may not necessarily agree on certain issues it is better to know that your concerns have been noted than feel like your being ignored. Really the solution to all your problems would be to make Rinzler a DEV but sadly for CCP .. I fight for the User o7
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 118	Posted - 2014.02.26 02:35:00 - [6] - Quote BTW I just want to thank everyone who spent anytime reading the OP, I know it was alot of text and honestly I wasn't expecting anyone to respond/read it and was braced for being trolled. So thank you for considering my points seriously and responding in due diligence its much appreciated !! o7
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 121	Posted - 2014.02.26 07:12:00 - [7] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: /sigh This is one of the worst communities I've ever seen in any game. The only thing that comes to mind for comparison is the Asura, Bakasura. No matter what it receives, it still wants more to cram into it's face. Nothing ever satiates it. CCP can continue to keep adding content, and it's not good enough. More needs to be added NAOW. CCP can try to fix matchmaking, and then while it's slightly better then before...no, it then claims matchmaking is as bad as it was in closed beta and nothings changed. CCP can attempt to provide more communication then they previously did, succeed at it...then get thrashed by the forums saying they are never around and ignoring us. CCP can respond to a few threads about a specific topic, but it's not good enough, they have to respond to EVERY thread and repeat the same thing over and over again just to fill it's stomach. I would actually be satisfied if CCP just canned the entire game. Many of you don't deserve to play any game with your unquenchable thirsts and self entitled attitudes. CCP may have dug the hole they are currently in, but this community keeps piling on dirt to make sure it stays that way. /sigh This is one of the most unpolished games I've ever played so it isn't surprising that the forums have alot more complaints about the game than other game forums out there ! That isn't a community issue that's a development issue .. no mistakes no QQ it really is that simple ! What have we had since Jan 2013 ? What were we promised or shown would be in the game by now ? No racial parity, no PVE, no player Market, no meaningful DUST-Eve link .. what about bubble shields ? There was a DEV Blog on them and we still don't have them 6 months later ! Telling a starving man to stop asking for food as he ate 2 weeks ago isn't the same as telling a man who has just eaten a 10 course meal to stop asking for food. Fixing something and making it slightly better than before aren't the same thing. If I told you I was going to fix a gas leak and then came back to you saying 'well I have made it slightly better than before as it isn't leaking as much' .. you wouldn't say that I had fixed it and would tell me to 'go back and finish the job properly'. CCP barely used to communicate with us at all so it isn't much of an achievement to improve on that. I did clarify that no one expects DEVs to respond to every thread but adding something similar to the dev post sign to be like a tick to show that a dev has looked at the thread is all thats needed so players know that the devs are actively checking the forums because right now we only have their word for it. The community would like a game they play to succeed and be balanced and fun .. what is the problem with that ?