DUST Search - So... I did some thinking about ADSes

Chuckles Brown wrote:

Sorry, but you can't reduce the damage or firerate of Railguns in this game with AV in the current state its in.

What are we supposed to do, just let tanks and ADSes have total control of the match and let them kill us over, and over?
I know that's what the VAST MAJORITY of vehicle users want, but its bullsh*t and they know it.

In a vehicle, you get to be a one man wrecking crew. So you shouldn't get upset when someone decides to fight back.

Until AV is brought back to a reasonable level, railguns need to stay. People are getting decimated by vehicles in 1.7, without rails, nothing would stop it because AV is an unbalanced joke and new players don't even have access to it.

Vehicle users are making insane amounts of ISK and getting a KDR boost, butr that's not good enough, they want more. They can't accept it when a player figures out a way to outplay them.
Its no different than someone b*tching about a Heavy with a Rail Rifle.

It sucks when you actually have to think and use skill in this game instead of letting your SP do all the work for you... get over it.

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Chuckles Brown 150	Posted - 2014.02.24 02:19:00 - [1] - Quote As I was shooting them down all day a few things occurred to me. 1. You have people piloting, that simply shouldn't be. They just hover or stay in a circle pattern. That's an easy kill for anything. 2. Pythons are the easiest. Like most shield vehicles, if you can get that alpha damage, you got them beat or neutralized. I see a lot of Pythons not using Shield Boosters, so they harden nothing. My conclusion. 2 hits for an ADS maybe a little much, considering you don't need damage mods either. However, my argument for keeping rails stays the same. As AV is useless in this game, and basically boils down to lucky shots if AV lands a killing blow on you. I suggest perhaps increasing the flight speed of an ADS. Like doubling it. Since we'll never have jets (what would stop those anyway) and attack vehicles need speed. This would still leave ADSes vulnerable when they slow down to attack. The window of opportunity is already their, it would just make it a little bit wider. Right now you have to wait for after burners and hardeners to cooldown if you want to take out an ADS. Most ADS pilots know that's the time to fly to the ceiling or low behind buildings. They usually get hit on the way to/from the burn zone. This would help them get in between those points faster, limiting the chance a rail has to pop them. As rails only get 5-6 shots. The 5-6 shots may seem like a lot, but it isn't. If you miss (which happens often because of predicting the ADSes flight directory) you're out of luck until cool down and reload. You can't just fire 1 shot at a time, you have to hold down the trigger, or time between shots takes about 2 seconds. In the hands of people like Ser Snugglez, it would be OP as heck, but he's an exception as you can't use extremes to properly measure something. The official alt of 8213: All other alts are unofficially unofficial Do you pub, brah?
Yeeeuuuupppp KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 113	Posted - 2014.02.24 02:21:00 - [2] - Quote I smashed my incubus into the ground today... my controller died.. I cried. My Minnie is friendly.. don't worry, I don't bite. I slash. Novice incubus pilot. Feel the wrath of my troll.
Chuckles Brown 150	Posted - 2014.02.24 02:22:00 - [3] - Quote Yeeeuuuupppp wrote: I smashed my incubus into the ground today... my controller died.. I cried. That suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks, man. The official alt of 8213: All other alts are unofficially unofficial Do you pub, brah?
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD 512	Posted - 2014.02.24 02:30:00 - [4] - Quote Muh useless swarms. Just because your AV isn't the proper counter for something doesn't mean all AV is useless against something Director of ZionTCD Amarr Logi \| Amarr Sentinel \| Amarr Scout (SoonGäó) TDBS
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 668	Posted - 2014.02.24 02:36:00 - [5] - Quote I still die more to my own stupidity, but once you get a few kills expect one of them to grab a MLT rail tank to try and bring you down. CCP your matchmaking is better but still sucks a fair amount Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 515	Posted - 2014.02.24 02:41:00 - [6] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: I still die more to my own stupidity, but once you get a few kills expect one of them to grab a MLT rail tank to try and bring you down. I know In 1.6 they reduced the climb speed just lol. 2 exile assault rifles, Skinweave cal. frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame Caldari Master Race One day shields, soon.
Chuckles Brown 150	Posted - 2014.02.24 03:10:00 - [7] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: I still die more to my own stupidity, but once you get a few kills expect one of them to grab a MLT rail tank to try and bring you down. lol The official alt of 8213: All other alts are unofficially unofficial Do you pub, brah?
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 139	Posted - 2014.02.24 03:28:00 - [8] - Quote Yeeeuuuupppp wrote: I smashed my incubus into the ground today... my controller died.. I cried. try a "fatal error, quit the game" screen in mid incubus flight u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 413	Posted - 2014.02.24 03:43:00 - [9] - Quote Forge Guns versus Dropships: seem fine for the most part. Tiers are a bit busted, since only Assaults are good or a full stacked up Breach. Standard Forge Guns need some work in general, though not because of specifically Dropships. Swarms versus Dropships: they do somewhat below acceptable damage, depending on the situation (Proto Swarms can do serious damage, the main point of contention is Hardeners making them all but useless) but the biggest factor here is the knockback effect, which is enormous and is an incredible wildcard: sometimes the Swarms can circle you and hit you from a completely random angle to catapult you into something. Plasma Cannons versus...anything: Haha, that's a good joke. PLC's need a lot of work. Large Blaster turrets: work. When they catch a Dropship in their engagement zone, they will rip enormous chunks out of them. Their main 'issue' is that they cannot apply damage as fast as a Railgun, but from an ADS perspective they are still incredibly dangerous weapons. Large Missile turrets: if it gets the drop/angle on a Dropship it can volley them out of the sky as effectively as it does against HAVs, but the stumbling block for these is the elevation angle. If we increase the angle, perhaps Missiles would be more capable in the anti-air role: which is something their blurb actually says they're supposed to be good for. Large Railgun turrets: Duh. They have incredible range, power, speed and no noticeable downsides. The most basic Railguns can down even the toughest Dropships within a single overheat and the most powerful can almost kill the toughest in a single hit. Reduction of fire rate, elevation angle and/or range would bring this more in line with other AV. Even with a slight range reduction, they would still maintain an enormous presence on the sky but add an elevation reduction and the Railgun becomes more vulnerable to aerial assault: combine this with a Missile turret elevation buff and you have something vaguely resembling balance! I'm sure there's more...but I'm sleepy!
Chuckles Brown 152	Posted - 2014.02.24 09:04:00 - [10] - Quote Sorry, but you can't reduce the damage or firerate of Railguns in this game with AV in the current state its in. What are we supposed to do, just let tanks and ADSes have total control of the match and let them kill us over, and over? I know that's what the VAST MAJORITY of vehicle users want, but its bullsht and they know it. In a vehicle, you get to be a one man wrecking crew. So you shouldn't get upset when someone decides to fight back. Until AV is brought back to a reasonable level, railguns need to stay. People are getting decimated by vehicles in 1.7, without rails, nothing would stop it because AV is an unbalanced joke and new players don't even have access to it. Vehicle users are making insane amounts of ISK and getting a KDR boost, butr that's not good enough, they want more. They can't accept it when a player figures out a way to outplay them. Its no different than someone btching about a Heavy with a Rail Rifle. It sucks when you actually have to think and use skill in this game instead of letting your SP do all the work for you... get over it. The official alt of 8213: All other alts are unofficially unofficial Do you pub, brah?

Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2395	Posted - 2014.02.24 09:36:00 - [11] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Muh useless swarms. Just because your AV isn't the proper counter for something doesn't mean all AV is useless against something Yeah! They are only meant to counter ants! "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Tailss Prower 501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit 187	Posted - 2014.02.24 09:54:00 - [12] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Muh useless swarms. Just because your AV isn't the proper counter for something doesn't mean all AV is useless against something Yeah! They are only meant to counter ants! I do just fine with mine plus i see plenty who use them right destroy or scare tanks same with many other av weapon. I was once made to retreat by a dam plasma cannon lol i for the life of me could not hit him
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4439	Posted - 2014.02.24 09:54:00 - [13] - Quote Zirzo Valcyn wrote: Yeeeuuuupppp wrote: I smashed my incubus into the ground today... my controller died.. I cried. try a "fatal error, quit the game" screen in mid incubus flight try unplugging your controller as you pull out of a dive. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Tailss Prower 501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit 187	Posted - 2014.02.24 09:58:00 - [14] - Quote Chuckles Brown wrote: Sorry, but you can't reduce the damage or firerate of Railguns in this game with AV in the current state its in. What are we supposed to do, just let tanks and ADSes have total control of the match and let them kill us over, and over? I know that's what the VAST MAJORITY of vehicle users want, but its bullsht and they know it. In a vehicle, you get to be a one man wrecking crew. So you shouldn't get upset when someone decides to fight back. Until AV is brought back to a reasonable level, railguns need to stay. People are getting decimated by vehicles in 1.7, without rails, nothing would stop it because AV is an unbalanced joke and new players don't even have access to it. Vehicle users are making insane amounts of ISK and getting a KDR boost, butr that's not good enough, they want more. They can't accept it when a player figures out a way to outplay them. Its no different than someone btching about a Heavy with a Rail Rifle. It sucks when you actually have to think and use skill in this game instead of letting your SP do all the work for you... get over it. I think everyones issue is hardner and dmg mod stacking and they blaming it on tanks and railguns although ADS are still slightly weak but you can dodge 2nd shot if your not hoving like an idiot
Yeeeuuuupppp KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 117	Posted - 2014.02.24 11:40:00 - [15] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Muh useless swarms. Just because your AV isn't the proper counter for something doesn't mean all AV is useless against something The only thing your little swarms are good at is snacking around a drop ship, but not actually killing it My Minnie is friendly.. don't worry, I don't bite. I slash. Novice incubus pilot. Feel the wrath of my troll.
Yeeeuuuupppp KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 117	Posted - 2014.02.24 11:43:00 - [16] - Quote Zirzo Valcyn wrote: Yeeeuuuupppp wrote: I smashed my incubus into the ground today... my controller died.. I cried. try a "fatal error, quit the game" screen in mid incubus flight Jeez, I only crashed because of a lag spike...trying to avoid a teleporting bolas My Minnie is friendly.. don't worry, I don't bite. I slash. Novice incubus pilot. Feel the wrath of my troll.
Alternate Insano SUICIDE SPITE SQUAD 160	Posted - 2014.02.24 11:46:00 - [17] - Quote You did something about ADSers? Has there been an issue with them? I'm pretty sure not. How bad do you suck? Dropships are like big WP filled pinatas. Two guys with hmgs can shoot them down. LAVs are harder to kill. DUST 514 Super Scrub Level 262 Forum Troll Play, or play not. There is no balance.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 415	Posted - 2014.02.24 17:20:00 - [18] - Quote Chuckles Brown wrote: Sorry, but you can't reduce the damage or firerate of Railguns in this game with AV in the current state its in. There seems to be a complete lack of reading comprehension among forumites. I don't know why I'm surprised... What I was suggesting was several small changes intended to be put into effect together that would bring us closer to balance: I'm not claiming to be all-knowing or anything, but I don't think my suggested changes are unreasonable when you consider them together. Chuckles Brown wrote: What are we supposed to do, just let tanks and ADSes have total control of the match and let them kill us over, and over? I know that's what the VAST MAJORITY of vehicle users want, but its bullsht and they know it. Stop trolling. There is a vocal minority* that want vehicles to be stupidly powerful, but there is also a fairly substantial amount of vehicle users that want vehicle/AV balance: Attim, Judge Rhadamanthus, True Adamance are all examples of good balance-mongers. Stop with the hyperbole: it doesn't help in any way. Chuckles Brown wrote: In a vehicle, you get to be a one man wrecking crew. So you shouldn't get upset when someone decides to fight back. I am assuming this post is directed at me, considering the initial statements and I will counter accordingly: I understand that, and I agree. I am, I feel, a veteran ADS pilot and I have suffered through the 1.6 phase of being swatted out of the sky thoughtlessly by every Swarm user to accidentally fire in my general vicinity. That being said, I also dislike the current state of vehicle/AV 'balance' because of the capacity for one-man wrecking crews, of which the biggest culprit is militia HAVs. I'm not denying that ADSs are powerful in the right hands, but they are so much more skill intensive (SP and personally) while still being vulnerable to AV (FGs, all Large turrets, even Swarms are dangerous in the right way) that the risk/reward balance is massively skewed towards the risk end of the spectrum. Personally, I feel that AV needs a slight buff on the whole (as you can see if you re-read my previous post) while the Large Railgun needs a series of small nerfs to make it powerful but not the all-powerful turrets they are - and to compensate for that we need a variety of options to be equally viable. Chuckles Brown wrote: Until AV is brought back to a reasonable level, railguns need to stay. People are getting decimated by vehicles in 1.7, without rails, nothing would stop it because AV is an unbalanced joke and new players don't even have access to it. Agreed! But that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss how to balance AV on the whole. Take as a whole, the Large Railgun is overpowered: so are vehicles due to the majority of AV (ie, Swarm Launchers) being so nerfed in power in 1.7. But just because Railguns are one of the only things keeping HAV-spam in check (and even then I'd argue that it's not checking it, it's fighting fire with fire) that doesn't mean they are balanced. Again, if you'll re-read my previous post, I suggested multiple changes to multiple things that I believe would bring a bit more harmony to the V/AV balance. Perhaps you could look at everything I suggested together instead of merely focusing on a single point in a vacuum? Chuckles Brown wrote: Vehicle users are making insane amounts of ISK and getting a KDR boost, butr that's not good enough, they want more. They can't accept it when a player figures out a way to outplay them. Its no different than someone btching about a Heavy with a Rail Rifle. Stop being so hyperbolic. "Vehicle users" is such a ridiculously over-generalised term. The most cheaply fitted Assault Dropship (assuming everything is Militia BPOs beside the gun) will still cost over 300,000 ISK: more than a single match payout will net you. While ADSs do not always get shot down, if it is fitted even vaguely right (ie, using modules that you can use with effectiveness, so higher tier survivability modules) you will in all likelihood be looking at multiple games of ISK negativity from a single lost ADS. Please note that I do not* think this is, overall, a bad thing. The issue that I have, and many others share, is that our risking of such an insane amount of ISK (comfortably the most expensive profession in DUST) nets us equivalent payouts to everyone else (which, again, is fine) but has such a stupidly easy counter in the Large Railgun which swats ADSs out of the sky like it's going out of style. The big issue is that we have one obviously effective weapon that is the AV weapon of choice due to several factors that make other AV, for the most part, ineffective at dealing with what the battlefield throws at them. The solution is not tweaks to a single weapon, like you seem to think people are suggesting, but to multiple at once, as my previous post suggests. Again, perhaps you can re-read it and comment without diving into a sea hyperbole when a single weapon is mentioned. As far as SP is concerned it sucks when the zero SP that someone spent on that Large Railgun and Sica entirely invalidates the multiple millions of SP that you spent to get access to the equipment you want to use. ADSs are powerful when used properly, yes, but they require and investment of SP and skill like no other specialisation does: this does not mean that ADS pilots want to be all-powerful and far from it, in fact. But it does mean that the counters to such a skill intensive role should not be so insanely easy to access and with such power without even a tiny investment of SP or skill. Having resorted to using Large Railguns when my ADS is useless (ie, when they have a million Railguns) I am well aware of the nuances of the Large Railgun: and it requires nothing like a fraction of the skill required to successfully fly an ADS.
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 69	Posted - 2014.02.24 17:37:00 - [19] - Quote The problem with all these "we need railguns to keep Assault Dropships in check" is that you never think about standard dropships. Those few pilots who fly dropships for support, you know, the Myron pilots running scanners, mCRUs, who transport squads from objective to objective. They get wrecked by railguns because they are so slow. Sees prototompers... Sees blueberries start to snipe... Pulls out commando suit with laser rifle and swarm launcher...


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