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Aerius Corius
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
0
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Posted - 2014.02.23 21:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:I'm with Aeon on this one. As it currently stands the issue with sniper rifles isn't their killing potential, its the fact that once equipped they don't do enough to support the team or even squad. Snipers are too independent. Additionally their risk reward ratio is all messed up thanks to their ability to hide in the redline.
Snipers need to be forced out of the redline to increase their risk but then given more team focused ways to earn rewards. Nerfing their weapon and/or their ability to see targets does nothing towards either of these ends.
Adding incentives is nice but I get the impression most people (some snipers included) don't actually understand the role CCP has fashioned and how well balanced it actually is. You're not going to wrack up kills and WP as a sniper unless the enemy team is too stupid/lazy to hunt you down and, again, too stupid/lazy to be aware of their environment.
That said - snipers don't kill pad (try it yourself - to get a wealth of targets means you're in range of someone's combat rifle OR the enemy team is idiotically sitting still in the wide open). Snipers control the field, mostly by fear ironically. Here's how I work as a sniper for my team:
1) I find a place to hide out - I don't redline because my aim is not good over 200m usually. What's more, most redline spots that hide you can't see around capture points...so no utility for the team. Lastly, anti-snipers look at the red-line for scouts that are speed-hacking...and find you. Sitting. Very. Still. Not good for your health.
2) My job is three-fold:
A) Kill people (force reduction) - no different from frontline, less risk but far more difficult to accomplish with lower target saturation and much more difficult target hits. Significant SP and arguably isk is needed for an effective sniper setup to consistently net kills, not assists. Head shots are rare - stand still and I might get it. All snipers complain about hit detection and such...that's for another thread.
B) Wound people (force reduction) - it takes me one hit on good days for a scout, two to three for a medium, and I almost never kill a heavy. That said, EVEN WITHOUT A KILL that dude I hit is weakened and running into my team, making him easier to kill. Assist for me (yay!) and the team has an easier time holding ground. Do you want to fight a heavy with or without shields? Yeah - I thought so.
C) FEAR FACTOR (and why I love sniping) - what do you do when you get hit and nobody is in sight? "ERMERGURD! SNIPER!" and you run for cover. I don't get a kill if you're semi-quick and you live. But what does that mean for my team? You didn't run into battle...so you didn't hurt them, and now four guys storming my team just became three. If I'm lucky you run around like a fool and I get a kill - usually I don't. But what does happen is you're alone when my team cleans up the guys YOU were supposed to support but ran away instead. Then they find you, alone, 50% shields or less...who is the coward now?
Force Reduction a la Fear.
This is what makes me, as a sniper, a valuable team asset and force multiplier. As for removing a sniper? Get over yourself and come find me in a scout suit...or heavy suit as one dude did (that ended badly for me...). Will you get less kills? Yup - you're looking for me instead of fighting. Will I die? Almost certainly - I'm a sniper with all dmg mods. No tank. My best defense up close is that wickedly OP...smg. Oops. So you could argue snipers help a team a fourth way - forcing the enemy team to dedicate a player, maybe more, to anti-sniping / sniper hunting.
Point I'm making? We support teams a hell of a lot more than that idiot running into the bunker gun blazing and wasting a clone and maybe denting one guy's shields. Play a sniper and you'll discover you're that guardian angel nobody knows exists except when you get a kill - assists aren't listed accept when YOU die and you invariably assume the guy you just killed at 0% shields was fighting one of your bros a moment ago...not 'sniped' down to size to help you.
Your welcome.
Now please post on the forums about a real problem - I recommend equipment's unreal saturation and spam rates due to ease of fitting and utility.
(20 Uplinks in one room? Schweet! I just got 100 WP for one grenade! Woo!)
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Aerius Corius
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
0
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Posted - 2014.02.23 22:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:
Problem is that, while all valid points, is hard to put into a point system. Which creates the illusion you are not being very productive and prevents people from being able to easily recognize good snipers from bad ones.
You are absolutely correct. In higher-end squads that communicate (i.e. mics) snipers are much more well known if they speak up because they can and do provide valuable intel having such a large field of view usually. Again, though, no points.
My first suggestion is to list assists under kills in smaller print (the window size for kills needs to remain unchanged to prevent cluttering). As it stands, you can't see who assisted you - only who assisted the guy that killed you. This is a basic improvement that doesn't change gameplay, just available information. Until the killboard my teams rarely know I existed - and then see me ranked #12 to #8 or so...low WP, but I apparently killed somebody?
Another form of 'informing' the masses could be to list the favored weapon on the killboard itself - many out there wonder how SuperMan123 or w/e is killing others so quickly...as a sniper, unless I watch who is killing who (I don't...I'm watching the field), the killboard doesn't explain why that guy had so many kills. This also shows how snipers were helping with actual dmg...not just WP, which is anything from my signature (a grenade on equipment) to raw kills.
There have been suggestions of enabling snipers to "lock on" to a target with a long-range, single person scanner that takes time to charge and use (like a five second lock) that would then enable potential scanner assists also. This is a development issue and likely won't come anytime soon if at all...sniping isn't broken, knowledge of how it helps is broken.
Camera Drones (another form of intel/scan assist) is a thread somewhere...I doubt this will come to be simply due to programming costs. That and, as a sniper, I feel this could be OP and detract from the core gameplay of sitting still, hidden, and making each shot count across minutes not seconds.
Listing who captures an object could also help - I do take points at times because only I defended it against those two capture-spamming scouts, then retook it. This shows the guy getting sniper kills is also contributing other ways. This particularly happens a lot in 5-point skirmishes where I and maybe one other sniper or scout protect an outlying point while the main body of the team slugs it out in the interior buildings and their capture points (where I can't help a lot).
Edit: Did the quote wrong - oops.
That guy you killed with 0% shields?
Yeah, I sniped him - go team.
Oh, you didn't know...hmm.
*CCP: Display Assists!!!
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Aerius Corius
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
0
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Posted - 2014.02.23 22:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aerius Corius wrote:[quote=Texs Red]
Listing who captures an object could also help - I do take points at times because only I defended it against those two capture-spamming scouts, then retook it. This shows the guy getting sniper kills is also contributing other ways. This particularly happens a lot in 5-point skirmishes where I and maybe one other sniper or scout protect an outlying point while the main body of the team slugs it out in the interior buildings and their capture points (where I can't help a lot).
This is actually a problem certain types of scouts face - and will face more with the new suit mechanics and equipment coming in 1.8, so they also could benefit from this. Many players wonder why Dude123 had 800 WP and only two kills. Scouts form another very valuable role that only needs one player to be effective - capture spamming, equipment destruction, behind-enemy-lines installation captures all are helpful.
As a sniper I often snipe from inside enemy lines after taking their CRUs and other installations. More WP for me, and it restricts enemy movement...making them more predictable and, thus, easier for me to setup a good spot from which to resume sniping (they're all going to rush to that CRU when the last uplink fails and they have to spawn from the red-zone). Showing "Aerius Corius captured Enemy Supply Depot" is just another form of informing the team how its individual members are helping.
Would be hella helpful for identifying potential new squad mates and even recruits for the corp. Any leader can agree on that!
Edit: For those fearful of enemy reprisal (i.e. the enemy team decides to hunt just you because you're the blablabla taking all their installations), you could have captures displayed only to your team and the enemy team just see the usual "Enemy has captured XYZ". Some people are finicky about that - as a sniper, I'm used to being hunted intentionally so it doesn't bug me.
That guy you killed with 0% shields?
Yeah, I sniped him - go team.
Oh, you didn't know...hmm.
*CCP: Display Assists!!!
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Aerius Corius
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
7
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Posted - 2014.02.25 01:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:
I'm sorry to say that all three of the things you have listed as your role are performed better by other play styles. Every other class is better at killing (force reduction), injuring, and creating fear (I'm a hell of a lot more scared by the sound of a shotgun than I am by the sound of a sniper rifle). Heck, I'd venture to say that I am rarely even worried about snipers even if they hit me. They don't dissuade me from going anywhere since they are unlikely to kill me as I move about erratically. Even calling out targets and noticing troop movements is a role better carried out by others. An active scanner is much more informative than someone gibbering at me since I can see it with my own eyes both through walls and on my radar. Currently snipers have no role.
That being said I'd like to see snipers have an actually useful role on the battlefield. I'd love it if snipers could mark targets for their squad when ADSing (just for an example) or get some bonus to using specialized equipment (radar jammars, drop-uplink interuption field generators, etc...).
As it stands, regardless of how much you protest, even the best snipers in the game (which you are not one of) are little more than an annoyance to other players are far from a major asset to their team.
I'm sorry to say you're wanting an ewar class other than a sniper for what it's intended to do...snipe. Being scared of a shotgun means you're either: A) Dead...because you got blown in the back, or B) I'm not sure...I can't say I've ever heard of a frontline running in fear from a shotgun since they rarely survive and shotguns have low range. You totally missed how the fear factor works - its not so much actual fear as forcing the enemy into a less than ideal situation:
1) Running for cover and thus not supporting his squad
2)Running for cover and not capturing that point because he assumes a threat is near and will kill him while he tries (so he starts looking), buying time for the sniper or team members to properly defend...which is where I say, "need help defending Alpha" and you come help because you don't need to see it on your radar you're not a blind and deaf idiot.
3) Rather than sniping you where you're too busy fighting that aforementioned shotgun, he looks for me because I'm nailing him...and keeping him off you, regardless of whether or not I kill him.
By the by...NONE of the other weapons (let alone class styles) can do those three. ALL of those happen, everyday, and result in improved chances of (and sometimes even clench) victory. Am I annoying? Sure - whatever you say hoss. Did I help my team win? Yup.
Rail rifles and installation guns are about the only other weapons beyond snipers that can send a guy running for cover because...you know, he can't immediately fight back. That's the point - with that HUGE advantage (for the sniper) comes the HUGE disadvantages of small ammo capacity, slow fire rate, worthless up close fighting, and in order to make the rifle good at its job, slots dedicated to dmg...not survival. Without wep upgrades, a sniper rifle (regardless of quality) will automatically need at least one more shot to succeed...which is precious time for the enemy to move out of sight or, in the case of anti-snipers, locate you and force you to move.
Please consider that others enjoy the playstyle of sniping (like myself) and am ok that we're not the 100% efficienct way to handle X, Y, or Z. I'm the best for handling troops barreling down on a given area in open fields where I will commit more damage and kills than you by virtue of my gun reaching further than yours...and when what's left gets close, my trusty (and ******, yes) SMG will be right there to help you. No suit is perfect at all roles - likewise, there is nothing wrong with a playstyle (a specific weapon in this case) being good at ONE thing.
You attack the weapon's capability and overlook the capability of the player's fitting and play style - for example, I hold and recapture abandoned points in skirmish maps when you and your 'bros' haul off to take a new point. It's called teamwork by some, being responsible by others, and our more hotheaded snipers call it cleaning up after you (and sometimes before).
News Flash: A HMG is also better by your standards than a shotgun, AR, CR, Knives...you get the point. Pretty sure the majority of the 20+ kill guys in a match I see are using heavies...that's the nature of the weapon and its utility. Said heavy is also slow as hell at taking points, dealing with afar targets (including enemy snipers picking you off since snipers are, you're sorry to say, apparently not good at anything in particular and only annoying when they force you off the game plan va redirection), and protecting multiple areas via long distance force projection and, vice versa, force reduction.
TL;DR
Snipers have a perfectly defined role - people, like yourself, don't know what that role is or feel it's "not good enough". I'm sorry to hear that, but don't shoot me out of the saddle for not doing it your way. Just don't have snipers on your team - instead of posting on the forums that the class is broken (which it isn't) - and the sniper community will be happy to 'annoy' away. You'll discover snipers do not just counter snipers...or you wouldn't be complaining on the forums, would you?
We must be doing something - annoyances do kill, after all.
That guy you killed with 0% shields?
Yeah, I sniped him - go team.
Oh, you didn't know...hmm.
*CCP: Display Assists!!!
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Aerius Corius
FACTION WARFARE ARMY
FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
18
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Posted - 2014.02.25 21:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'd ask you to consider what a "sniper" is in the real world and use your comparisons in that context...because the only way to make a sniper 'better' than other classes at a specific role is to give them some rather unbalanced gameplay mechanics.
1) One Shot Kills. Always. Full Zoom, Excellent Sight Mechanics.
2) Cloaking and/or Significantly more Cover Options (possibly provided through scout suits)
3) Ordinance Targeting (already available via Orbitals if a leader)
That's a sniper in a nutshell. Ewar capabilities don't change that - a sniper with scan bonuses or ewar will still be less great than another class by virtue of all the reasons you listed unless forced via fittings (see: cloak modules and scout suits in 1.8). If that is your proposition, forced balancing, I can understand that - but most of the player base won't like it. Snipers are an annoyance, that's what they do if not given Point #1 above as in the real world. But if they are, the QQ threads on the Thale will pale in comparison to THAT sort of change...even snipers know that won't be good for the game (it's hard to wrack up WP in a game people quit over bad mechanics).
Snipers, as I recall saying, are only supposed to be truly good at one thing over any other class or playstyle: force reduction via long distance, low risk, high power attacks that can't happen frequently. Low ammo capacity both mag and overall, necessary skill shots, and low defense all play to this currently. I'm totally cool with you wanting more stuff for me to get paid more - but I worry about forum warriors screwing the original concept of a sniper for something else that, well, isn't a sniper.
So, I suppose what I'm trying to get across is all you've done is explained:
1) Snipers are not team assets because other classes do any of their functions better...thus rendering them obsolete.
2) Changing the sniper class to be beneficial through mechanics other than its core weapon and function - sniping.
I've explained how, in point 1, snipers have the range and battlefield knowledge many classes can't compete with - but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree it seems. They do defend points. They do capture them. They do revive team mates (I'm able to fit a std injector because when has a grenade ever helped a sniper?). They do provide cover fire in ways other classes cannot - notably at range where reprisal is virtually impossible, enabling FORCED enemy movement as opposed to retaliation and a small delay. Again, I think we just fundamentally disagree - and that's cool, we don't exactly have metrics to work with.
In point 2, I've explained how the only way to make a sniper good at its defined role - KILLING PEOPLE AT HUGE RANGES - will require unbalanced mechanics or simply rendering the class as it is, useful for unique circumstances over other classes.
So - what is your proposed solution to making snipers 'worthwhile' assets while retaining the core gameplay - single shot massive dmg, undetected, at vast ranges?
It's not a troll question and I encourage all readers to answer. Mobius IS right that at higher levels of gameplay, snipers are currently under utilized (or not at all) in favor of more straightforward classes.
-Is this because of map styles? (It has been complained much that snipers have few options in geography)
-IS the damage of a sniper rifle (Thales is apparently spot on - but I mean others) too low such that body count, and thus utility of the class, is diminished?
-Are their mechanics that could be introduced to enable a stronger, much higher kill rate rifle, that are balanced? EX: 20 second reload? Four second shot Rate of Fire? Visual of the shot (currently you can't see a sniper shot visually - only when it hits a person or environment) like a tracer so its easier to locate a sniper (like forge guns)? If so, back to the above question - does that balance the increase in damage?
That guy you killed with 0% shields?
Yeah, I sniped him - go team.
Oh, you didn't know...hmm.
*CCP: Display Assists!!!
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