DUST Search - 4 types of tank. Shield. Armour. Speed. Damage.

Cat Merc wrote:

N1ck Comeau wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

N1ck Comeau wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

After running armor suits for the entire duration of Uprising, and then switching back to a shield suit, I can tell you the penalty is far from small.

The mobility difference is huge.
I especially missed being able to jump over tiny ledges.

BTW, my Gallente suit has 504 armor and takes 80 seconds to fully recharge.
My Caldari suit has 480 shields and takes 17 seconds to fully recharge.

Repair hives are ineffective until you reach proto, and then they cost so much CPU/PG you just HAVE to bring a logi mule with you.

The only problem with armor vs shields is the logis, their insane CPU/PG combined with 4 equipment, 5hp/s passive rep and up 5 low slots (and a minimum of 4 low slots), allows them to be the ultimate solo armor tanker.

I had assumed most people would recognize that i was mainly referring to the Gallente Logi.

Which isn't an accurate representation of armor tanking.

It's broken.
That's like nerfing the AR because the TAC AR was OP.

it is quite accurate considering all the other armour suits can get all that EHP, just without the other stuff, like the rep. Any armour suit, stacking plates, with any team support at all, is going to be extremely effective.

All the armour suits can do it good, just the Gallente Logi can do it all.

Team support.
So I need to be team support to be more effective.
How is that broken exactly?

And stacking plates is the way of the dumb armor tanker, a healthy balance between armor and repairers is necessary.
Logi support, nanohives, they all can be taken away, and then you're left with nothing.

Too many times I saw an armor tanking squad cut off from their logi support and then they die in a fight of attrition to a single person.

No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding.

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N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2188	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:01:00 - [1] - Quote So i'm gonna take a look at all four types of "Tank" Any comments i find helpful will be edited in. Armour Armour is probably the most effective "tank" and is currently considered to be way to effective compared to the other options by a lot of people, including me. Armour has a small penalty, the more you have, the slower you are, 5% movement penalty per lever. Armour users can also reap the benefits of damage mods. Stack plates (low slot) Stack damage mods (high slot) That is what armour users so deadly. Not the high health, it's the amount of damage they can put out at the same time. Now with the current TTK (Time to kill) a speed penalty isn't a big deal considering how much armour these plates provide. TTK is to low, and it makes sense for players to try and get as much health as possible. But this makes suits like the Gallente, an armour suit, to powerful compared to a shield based suit like the Caldari use. You can get for armour for your buck then you can shields, and lot more too. Naturally there are disadvantages and advantages to using one or the other. Let me list them below. Armour Pros High health when stacking Huge amounts back when being repped. you can have constant reps on you. Nanohives can heal you. Flux grenades are a much smaller threat. Leaves high slots free for items such as damage mods. (really big balance flaw here) Passive Reps continue even well taking damage. Person repairing gets a crazy amount of points Armour Cons Slower movement speed Needs a repair man to be ultra effective. you stay severely injured after a gunfight for some time. you need to use slots to get your own reps. Popular weapons such as the Rail Rifle, Combat Rifle, and grenades, are super effective against you There is a lot more pros to using armour then there are cons. Shields also have pros and cons, but the cons list is much longer than the pros list. Let me show you. Shield Pros Doesn't need someone to rep you. No movement penalty. leaves low slots open for effective mods like dampeners or Kincats. High passive rate. Effective hit and run tactics, especially on scouts as there depleted delay is short. Popular weapons like the combat rifle, and the rail rifle do less damage to you. Shield Cons The more you stack, the longer it takes to come back Weapons like the scrambler rifle, assault rifle, and laser rifle do more damage to you. You are faster to die then an armour stacker. It's harder to run damage mods because you need your slots for shields. you can't get higher recharge rate through team support. (like how armour stackers can get repaired) you often lose gunfights you could have won because the enemy had more EHP (Total health) then you. (stacking armour) takes longer to come back when fully depleted. Isn't constantly getting repped. Won't recharge while getting shot at. Lot more Cons for shields then pros. Lets move on to a more detailed look at shields. Shields Shields are the backbone of the Caldari and the Minmatar. Often used in combination with Kincats and dampeners. Shield suits are agile, and faster than armour suits. But they lack damage bonuses that are in the high slots. Shield users are able to run free, and easy without a teammate there to provide reps. Shields are an effective choice for a solo merc who doesn't have a squad to fall back on. Shields can also be used in combo with some armour, but then you'd be losing your speed bonus. Unless you run the plates that have no movement penalty. Shields used in combination with Kincats is an decent stratgey. Unfortunately it's not as good as it should be. Shield users can get around 9 metres a second speed with 2-3 kincats, but kincats take a lot of PG. Damage Damage modules are located in the high slots. They can provide a maximum of 10% extra damage. the more you stack the less each mod provides (stacking penalty) Damage modules are extremely effective, especially when combined with an armour based suit. With an armour based suit, you can get plenty of armour and deal a lot of damage. It's a quite powerful combo, and i believe to be too strong and needs changes. Speed The last and possible the worst version of "tanking" there is. Kincats take an outrageous amount of PG and a low slot which are used for damps and armour plates. KIncats do make a dramatic difference in speed, and in the hands of a good player can make them more deadly, especially in combo with damage mods. With how Aim assist works now, and how good hit detection has become speed doesn't help much when it comes to dodging bullets anymore. Scouts can really thrive on the speed though, as they can get up to 10 meters a second, that is as fast or almost as fast as Usain Bolt, the fastest runner on earth. This definitely helps when you need to get somewhere in a hurry. Kincats need some changes, and i'd start with lower fitting requirements. See how it goes from there. 8 PG at max in my opinion. I hope you guys enjoyed this thread. It was my insight on the versions of "tank" drop suits have to choose from. Anything you guys want me to add that i think is important, i will. Have a good night (1 AM as of time posting for me) No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding. Proud member of RND
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2188	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:02:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved. No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding. Proud member of RND
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 149	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:05:00 - [3] - Quote I hope the racial vehicles eventually wind up having completely different play styles. Where would you guys put these types of attributes racially for vehicles? We can pickle that.
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2188	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:07:00 - [4] - Quote RemingtonBeaver wrote: I hope the racial vehicles eventually wind up having completely different play styles. Where would you guys put these types of attributes racially for vehicles? speed for minmatar. Shields for Caldari. Armour for Gallente. Damage for Amarr. even though they are gonna duel tank. No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding. Proud member of RND
Galthur Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 361	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:12:00 - [5] - Quote You're forgetting "Scan" Tanking The one few know of or will recognize until next build. I'm speccing into scan tanking now and it's already saved me multiple times. Those who don't already know passive scans go out, after a few seconds the scan fades and a new one is sent. This is in 360 degree's allowing one to easily see their surrounding to gain a major tactical advantage. Next build scouts can have 360 degree perma scans that pick up lower DB and have better range than current active scanners so... What do you post in the war room when CCP is gone and PC is locked? 14:44 [CCP]Logibro: Not Anime.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6740	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:36:00 - [6] - Quote After running armor suits for the entire duration of Uprising, and then switching back to a shield suit, I can tell you the penalty is far from small. The mobility difference is huge. I especially missed being able to jump over tiny ledges. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2385	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:54:00 - [7] - Quote Armor Repair tank? i.e. all of the current Armor HAVs...I mean 100-400 armor per second on a tank is just insane. It's hard to do on most dropsuits, but I've seen players running 3-4 complex reppers on their gallente logistics with 1-2 plates and doing exceptionally well. Links: List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos!
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2189	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:55:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: After running armor suits for the entire duration of Uprising, and then switching back to a shield suit, I can tell you the penalty is far from small. The mobility difference is huge. I especially missed being able to jump over tiny ledges. BTW, my Gallente suit has 504 armor and takes 80 seconds to fully recharge. My Caldari suit has 480 shields and takes 17 seconds to fully recharge. Repair hives are ineffective until you reach proto, and then they cost so much CPU/PG you just HAVE to bring a logi mule with you. The only problem with armor vs shields is the logis, their insane CPU/PG combined with 4 equipment, 5hp/s passive rep and up 5 low slots (and a minimum of 4 low slots), allows them to be the ultimate solo armor tanker. I had assumed most people would recognize that i was mainly referring to the Gallente Logi. No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding. Proud member of RND
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2189	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:56:00 - [9] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Armor Repair tank? i.e. all of the current Armor HAVs...I mean 100-400 armor per second on a tank is just insane. It's hard to do on most dropsuits, but I've seen players running 3-4 complex reppers on their gallente logistics with 1-2 plates and doing exceptionally well. i was doing the main "tank" i would consider that a subsection of armour tanking No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding. Proud member of RND
gustavo acosta Omega Elite Mercs INC. 49	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:57:00 - [10] - Quote You forgot scan tank, which includes profile dampeners, precision enhancers, and range amplifiers. Now I'm not saying I'm a badass, but once I killed a guy in militia gear. We were both wearing it but still.

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6740	Posted - 2014.02.23 05:59:00 - [11] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: Cat Merc wrote: After running armor suits for the entire duration of Uprising, and then switching back to a shield suit, I can tell you the penalty is far from small. The mobility difference is huge. I especially missed being able to jump over tiny ledges. BTW, my Gallente suit has 504 armor and takes 80 seconds to fully recharge. My Caldari suit has 480 shields and takes 17 seconds to fully recharge. Repair hives are ineffective until you reach proto, and then they cost so much CPU/PG you just HAVE to bring a logi mule with you. The only problem with armor vs shields is the logis, their insane CPU/PG combined with 4 equipment, 5hp/s passive rep and up 5 low slots (and a minimum of 4 low slots), allows them to be the ultimate solo armor tanker. I had assumed most people would recognize that i was mainly referring to the Gallente Logi. Which isn't an accurate representation of armor tanking. It's broken. That's like nerfing the AR because the TAC AR was OP. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2190	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:03:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: Cat Merc wrote: After running armor suits for the entire duration of Uprising, and then switching back to a shield suit, I can tell you the penalty is far from small. The mobility difference is huge. I especially missed being able to jump over tiny ledges. BTW, my Gallente suit has 504 armor and takes 80 seconds to fully recharge. My Caldari suit has 480 shields and takes 17 seconds to fully recharge. Repair hives are ineffective until you reach proto, and then they cost so much CPU/PG you just HAVE to bring a logi mule with you. The only problem with armor vs shields is the logis, their insane CPU/PG combined with 4 equipment, 5hp/s passive rep and up 5 low slots (and a minimum of 4 low slots), allows them to be the ultimate solo armor tanker. I had assumed most people would recognize that i was mainly referring to the Gallente Logi. Which isn't an accurate representation of armor tanking. It's broken. That's like nerfing the AR because the TAC AR was OP. it is quite accurate considering all the other armour suits can get all that EHP, just without the other stuff, like the rep. Any armour suit, stacking plates, with any team support at all, is going to be extremely effective. All the armour suits can do it good, just the Gallente Logi can do it all. No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding. Proud member of RND
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1744	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:03:00 - [13] - Quote You forgot stealth tanking, which will get even better in 1.8 due to cloaks. most powerful during the cloak as you're basically completely hidden (if you got a good profile), so nobody will aim at you. So essentially, you're unkillable. Otherwise, you better be good at hiding. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6740	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:08:00 - [14] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: Cat Merc wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: Cat Merc wrote: After running armor suits for the entire duration of Uprising, and then switching back to a shield suit, I can tell you the penalty is far from small. The mobility difference is huge. I especially missed being able to jump over tiny ledges. BTW, my Gallente suit has 504 armor and takes 80 seconds to fully recharge. My Caldari suit has 480 shields and takes 17 seconds to fully recharge. Repair hives are ineffective until you reach proto, and then they cost so much CPU/PG you just HAVE to bring a logi mule with you. The only problem with armor vs shields is the logis, their insane CPU/PG combined with 4 equipment, 5hp/s passive rep and up 5 low slots (and a minimum of 4 low slots), allows them to be the ultimate solo armor tanker. I had assumed most people would recognize that i was mainly referring to the Gallente Logi. Which isn't an accurate representation of armor tanking. It's broken. That's like nerfing the AR because the TAC AR was OP. it is quite accurate considering all the other armour suits can get all that EHP, just without the other stuff, like the rep. Any armour suit, stacking plates, with any team support at all, is going to be extremely effective. All the armour suits can do it good, just the Gallente Logi can do it all. Team support. So I need to be team support to be more effective. How is that broken exactly? And stacking plates is the way of the dumb armor tanker, a healthy balance between armor and repairers is necessary. Logi support, nanohives, they all can be taken away, and then you're left with nothing. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2190	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:12:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: Cat Merc wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: Cat Merc wrote: After running armor suits for the entire duration of Uprising, and then switching back to a shield suit, I can tell you the penalty is far from small. The mobility difference is huge. I especially missed being able to jump over tiny ledges. BTW, my Gallente suit has 504 armor and takes 80 seconds to fully recharge. My Caldari suit has 480 shields and takes 17 seconds to fully recharge. Repair hives are ineffective until you reach proto, and then they cost so much CPU/PG you just HAVE to bring a logi mule with you. The only problem with armor vs shields is the logis, their insane CPU/PG combined with 4 equipment, 5hp/s passive rep and up 5 low slots (and a minimum of 4 low slots), allows them to be the ultimate solo armor tanker. I had assumed most people would recognize that i was mainly referring to the Gallente Logi. Which isn't an accurate representation of armor tanking. It's broken. That's like nerfing the AR because the TAC AR was OP. it is quite accurate considering all the other armour suits can get all that EHP, just without the other stuff, like the rep. Any armour suit, stacking plates, with any team support at all, is going to be extremely effective. All the armour suits can do it good, just the Gallente Logi can do it all. Team support. So I need to be team support to be more effective. How is that broken exactly? And stacking plates is the way of the dumb armor tanker, a healthy balance between armor and repairers is necessary. Logi support, nanohives, they all can be taken away, and then you're left with nothing. Too many times I saw an armor tanking squad cut off from their logi support and then they die in a fight of attrition to a single person. even with a health balance of the 2, you will still have more total health, and your reps are constant. Also, the nanohives are what help make armour better then Shields. If they reduced the reps given on those hives, that would be a step in the right direction No idea on my guns right now. Getting majority to level 3 at least, then deciding. Proud member of RND
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6741	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:17:00 - [16] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: \ even with a health balance of the 2, you will still have more total health, and your reps are constant. Also, the nanohives are what help make armour better then Shields. If they reduced the reps given on those hives, that would be a step in the right direction Look above. 504 armor vs 480 armor. Both Proto suits, one Gallente and one Caldari. Did I mention the Caldari one has a Duvolle, Core Locus, Gauged and Ishukone Assault SMG? While the Gallente one has a GEK38, C7 flux, K2 nanohive and syndicate SMG? That's because the Caldari one can use a CPU/PG extender, which I can't afford to use on my Gallente suit. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Heathen Bastard The Bastard Brigade 987	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:39:00 - [17] - Quote Ah scan tanking. Can't wait for that caldari scout. Knowledge is power, knowledge without your enemy knowing you have knowledge of them is victory decided before the first round is fired. If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1746	Posted - 2014.02.23 06:48:00 - [18] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: Ah scan tanking. Can't wait for that caldari scout. Knowledge is power, knowledge without your enemy knowing you have knowledge of them is victory decided before the first round is fired. ................ and you still won't scan me 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 1143	Posted - 2014.02.23 07:04:00 - [19] - Quote Mobility is a major flaw for us, despite what you say. When the enemy can outrun us, out range us, and out strafe us we start dropping like flies. If you move the speed penalty higher, you'll be making armor tankers ineffective. Anything above 550 means we won't be able to escape easily if confronted. We also don't get "fast reps" and in fact we actively rep slower than Shield tankers. Also some of your cons for Shield don't make sense. Constantly being repped and being repped while getting damaged is the same thing. There can only be one, the same goes for that pro you gave Armor tankers. If it's harder to run damage mods for Shield Tankers, the same should be said about Kin Cats and Profile Dampeners. Also the same with Armor tanking's ability to stack damage mods, being a pro. The same can be said about Shield tankers ability to stack on Profile Dampening and Kin Cats. If I'm counting right and you consider the edits suggested in my post, the cons would be equal in number. It also rings true for the pros. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Heathen Bastard The Bastard Brigade 987	Posted - 2014.02.23 07:12:00 - [20] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Heathen Bastard wrote: Ah scan tanking. Can't wait for that caldari scout. Knowledge is power, knowledge without your enemy knowing you have knowledge of them is victory decided before the first round is fired. ................ and you still won't scan me You're going to run a dampened gal scout, or keep your cloak on 24/7? because one of those is a purpose built suit that'll get eaten alive by just about everyone that uses their eyes more than their scanners, and the other is impossible without some type of glitch or exploit. Then again, this is dust514 and you're allowed to exploit your way to winning tournaments. If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.

Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1792	Posted - 2014.02.23 07:17:00 - [21] - Quote You put a great amount of detail in these tank classifications when everybody knows that dual tanking everything is the only way. Looking for a Interesting Character Name? Why Not Zoidberg?
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 875	Posted - 2014.02.24 01:47:00 - [22] - Quote change speed penalty to 3/4/5 or 2/3/4 for armor plates as well so that proto plates are more attractive for use STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 32 CPU) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 55 CPU) These fittings are balanced, scaled the same between STD, ADV, and PRO hp wise, and have the equivalent fitting values at 1pg=5cpu. Also, in addition, i think shield suits like Caldari and minmitar need a huge buff in shield recharge rate and delay, and gallente and amarr frames need a nerf in these two areas, to discourage dual tanking Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1281	Posted - 2014.02.24 01:48:00 - [23] - Quote Forgot stealth tanked.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 881	Posted - 2014.02.24 02:04:00 - [24] - Quote e-warfare is a tank too, yeah i agree with joel Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!


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