No I understand your point. I just don't think its a good point. To get vehicle destroying power you make yourself vulnerable to other infantry, like a forge gunner. That's balanced because av kills vehicles, infantry kills av, vehicles kill infantry, they all have counters. If the av player is with out a squad that can support him then he probably won't be doing very well sure, if he stays back behind a heavy and assault player he's not going to be fighting the enemy with his sidearm.

Infantry av has the added perk of infantry skills applying. So its a lot easier to also skill into other infantry roles. The suit you use for av can also be used for other infantry rolls. I don't understand why you say its unacceptable for an av player to be running a cheap infantry fit when there is no vehicles, then when there is run to a supply depot or if he dies switch to his primary av fit, That seems reasonable to me.
When I was learning to fly in chrome I had to run on the ground to get isk for my dropships (no transport wp, no pilot gun, hardly anyone wanting to get into the death traps) and since I wanted to be a dropship pilot I had all my sp invested in my dropships. On the ground I ran my starter fit logi praying the heavy i was repping would stay alive. The same argument you make here could also be applied to the dropship pilot role, its too expensive, fitting intensive and weak but you could also add sp intensive.

My point is, av doesn't have to always be running around in their av suits. They are in a good position to also use suits like other infantry. If they are needed they can switch, if they have a squad they can be protected. Vehicles are a role, and the counter to that role is the av role, why should every infantry player be able to whip out a swarm and deny the vehicle player his role? Because av suits are weak against suits designed to kill infantry? I'm sorry that's not a good enough reason for me to agree with you.
Destroying vehicles is a role, it requires the av player to think about how vehicles operate to destroy them while watching out for their counter like every other role in the game they shouldn't be exempt from a counter. There is a way to field both av and infantry weapons, its called the commando suit. Its not as effective at destroying vehicles as a dedicated av suit but it can deny an area to a vehicle if the squad encounters one right then and there.

Your post was very confusing because at the end you got it right, av players should be working with other infantry, they protect the infantry from vehicles and the infantry protects them from other infantry. Rock paper scissors.

the problem we have in dust is we keep balancing this against that and then repeating or doing the opposite when what we should be doing is marking it all down as broken and then taking the whole thing in a different direction.

CCP has trouble making progress in one direction. I dread the day they try to fix more than the things they broke.

you are missing the point.

that circle of killing doesn't work in dust at all.

tank kills infantry and av players, infantry kills av players, av players can't kill tanks because they are 1 shot as soon as they attack by snipers,tanks,other infantry, this means more tanks killing more infantry. infantry get pissed off and hide indoors or switch to sniping. snipers pick of more av as they attempt again to take out tanks. av player gives us playing av.

the whole notion of team av is flawed because as more go av then there is no one left to protect them.

tank is harassing team so they go av, now tank is no threat but the entire enemy team of infantry is. you respawn infantry and "oh another tank" this is the issue that's plaguing the game. players having ranged av as a backup while forge and tanks fulfill the main role is just common sense. there is no reason why it couldn't be balanced.

also your wrong to imply that av should be a role but then say they should run infantry when not needed. thats like saying all logis should not run repairs or ammo. they should wait for someone to be taking damage. then run back to the resupply, get a repair, then run back to heal the guy taking damage. its either a role or it isn't. if you can't be in it all the time its not a role and the fact is av setups are so weak and situational you cannot use them for anything else.

you also say av doesn't need to be always in av.... well most of the time they do. there are so many tanks,ds,lavs about now its a must have but to use swarms or plc to some extent means death and not for the tank you shoot at. how can av with the lowest life expectancy and the highest fitting cost after logi be a viable role especially if its only effective if there are more of you and with guards who cant protect you from snipers or light weapon fire or even the tanks themselves.

its not a role as it stands now. if it takes a group of players to make it work and a group of players to protect you as you do it then its broken. we see how its broken every day yet player choose to ignore it.

the fix is not as simple as a nerf or buff to either side.

You know for the most part most anti vehicle weapons in this modern age, and please do correct me if I am wrong, are far to heavy just to slight across the back, with full combat gear, and a rifle, side arm, grenades, basic survival and medical equipment, etc.

AV does not need to be changed, it is sitting in a strong place. Vehicles have to be changed to be balanced against AV.

this is precisely the point. in every other game av guy carries av weapon as a specialised piece of equipment meaning if he needs it he can go av but if not he can still be effective in combat. what dust has is balance which means av is not effective solo and anyone carrying it is not effective in normal combat either. this is the underlining issue with av

Sidearms.

You can still do decent against Infantry with them. Just don't expect to wipe out a whole squad.

Sidearms.

You can still do decent against Infantry with them. Just don't expect to wipe out a whole squad.

a class who carries av as a specialised piece of equipment and not as a main weapon (this includes rl)

dust is the only one i can think of that makes you carry it as a main weapon. that is why we will never have balance on tank/av issues. because what it boils down to is why carry a weapon that struggles to kill a single guy in a vehicle when i can carry a weapon that is excellent at killing his 15 friends not to mention that a mlt weapon is far more efficient killer than for instance a few guys with proto SL with 3 complex damage mods each

until light av is made into a secondary role which everyone can use with their normal fighting ability then there can be no balance

this has always been the issue.

pre 1.7 every team had 1 or 2 SL players because that was all that was needed. there was no need for more as it was highly effective and there was plenty of combat troops available to protect these users. problem with that was if made tanks weak and promoted a huge buff to tanks and a reduction to effectiveness to av. this then had its own problem as now it needs more av to kill a tank but there is not enough of it on the field. the reason for this is fitting av weapons leaves you at a massive disadvantage to all infantry and even the tanks you are trying to kill. to field enough av to kill 1 tank now means far less infantry to protect these players and they are completely destroyed within seconds of firing the first shots. the reason for this is everyone knows now av players are defenceless with their sidearms against every light weapon user so enemy will actually go out of their way to kill av players for easy kills.

what we need is av weapons to be secondary to all normal weapons either by becoming sidearms or equipment because they are completely situational. in doing this i see no reason why ccp couldn't keep tanks and av as they currently are including the hardener stacking etc as there would be potential for everyone to carry av with them at all times meaning more players to counter tanks

logi is a role
assault is a role,
heavy is a role,
scout is a role,
tank driver is a role,
dropship pilot is a role,
not sure what commando is

av is not a role. its a piece of equipment or a weapon just like hives or scanners. yet when you fit a piece of av you are automatically branded an av player and expected to die fast and do little damage.

its a situational piece of equipment. its not treated as such and thats a problem in itself

I think one obvious answer is making land turrets permanent, they are great AV weapons, art. Int. should be removed so that they must be manned to do anything and they can be disabled but also repairable. The other thing is just giving WP for damage, that alone will change the dynamics as people will want to run AV instead if having to run AV. Of course, hoe damage is measured needs changes or no CRU or supply depot would survive.

I can't deal with tanks so I want them nerfed.

That explains it.

Not every other game has op tanks that insta kill you (blaster turret)

A big problem also is, like people giving up on the fight and retreating to the red line, people giving up on all av, even talking **** when I pull out my av suit. It takes multiple people, I think vehicles are in a good place just need to slow down a bit (If they are at 1% hp, It's kind of ridiculous they can escape at top speed). The nerf to AV was not necessary if vehicles were getting buffed.

As I was saying though, Tanks are in a good place so a lot of people are using them, AV is in a rough spot, so a lot of cowards abandon it all together. Last night in the few matches I played we destroyed all HAVs that entered the fight (**** you redline rail tanks), if you have a squad who can put their big boy pants on, work together and concentrate AV fire, it's not as bad as it seems. You can avoid a total stomp, usually tanks are about like snipers, only good for k/d, annoying, but they cant win the match alone.

It's a tank. It's supposed to be a devastating platform. You're in a meat bag.

Balance is needed

a class who carries av as a specialised piece of equipment and not as a main weapon (this includes rl)

dust is the only one i can think of that makes you carry it as a main weapon. that is why we will never have balance on tank/av issues. because what it boils down to is why carry a weapon that struggles to kill a single guy in a vehicle when i can carry a weapon that is excellent at killing his 15 friends not to mention that a mlt weapon is far more efficient killer than for instance a few guys with proto SL with 3 complex damage mods each

until light av is made into a secondary role which everyone can use with their normal fighting ability then there can be no balance

this has always been the issue.

pre 1.7 every team had 1 or 2 SL players because that was all that was needed. there was no need for more as it was highly effective and there was plenty of combat troops available to protect these users. problem with that was if made tanks weak and promoted a huge buff to tanks and a reduction to effectiveness to av. this then had its own problem as now it needs more av to kill a tank but there is not enough of it on the field. the reason for this is fitting av weapons leaves you at a massive disadvantage to all infantry and even the tanks you are trying to kill. to field enough av to kill 1 tank now means far less infantry to protect these players and they are completely destroyed within seconds of firing the first shots. the reason for this is everyone knows now av players are defenceless with their sidearms against every light weapon user so enemy will actually go out of their way to kill av players for easy kills.

what we need is av weapons to be secondary to all normal weapons either by becoming sidearms or equipment because they are completely situational. in doing this i see no reason why ccp couldn't keep tanks and av as they currently are including the hardener stacking etc as there would be potential for everyone to carry av with them at all times meaning more players to counter tanks

Most other games also allow you to pop a vehicle with a single RPG or RE. If you want a light weapon for infantry and vehicles then skill into commando. Two people fighting the HAVs while everyone else runs and hides or shoots them with CRs is the problem. When I am in a squad with two AV mercs these problems don't exist because once you stand up to the bully they run away and don't come back.

Everyone skill into prox mines and deploy them all over the place, I will bet the HAV spam stops within a few days because infantry has to clear them or pilots have clear them. Infantry doing it lures the infantry into the open and if pilots do it them they have to sit still in the open to do it. Fix the amount of teamwork that goes on and you will fix the HAV problems.

There's no talk of "balance" when people complain that tanks don't take damage from automatic rifles. There can be no intelligent discussion with those people.