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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.18 23:58:00 -
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ok, before the main area of the topic; give you some background so maybe what I say have some credibility. From the start of REPLICATION (that's May 2012), I have ran some form of proto AV (be sworms, FG w/ AV nades) from then through this build. Along w/ 2.5yrs worth of AV experience, I have also dabbled in tanks during differ builds on alts, etc; using both shield/armor (though my knowledge is less in that area). To help w/ this post, I even capped out this week for the first time in 8 months to have current ingame knowledge of the interaction b/t AV-vehicles. Now, on with the show
1). First and foremost, vehicles (both tank and dropships) are NOT OP. The problem isn't the vehicle themselves, but how the modules work, and what they do that make tanks OP at the moment.
ex: other game, found a 1/2 hp (meaning only 2k armor) left Mady, rolling around. I get the postion and surprise advantage on the tank while it was dead stopped in middle of open terrain. I shot off all 6 rounds of my proto SL (w/ prof 5 & 3 complex damage mods). After the first hit of the SL, the tank activated its reps and 2nd hardener (in which the tank only have 1/4 armor left after first shot). The next 5 shots, kept putting the tank down to 1/4 armor, but no more b/c of the oo loop of reps and hardeners going about it. Yes some tankers will say you shouldn't be able to solo a tank, yet will say that is BS. Not b/c of me being an AV'er but for balance reason (get into more later). Just for those who care, w/ 6 full hitting vollies of my SL, that is 11.3k damage.
2). AV simply put is underpowered. Aside from the FG, which damage hasn't really changed to much, AV as a whole is underpowered. Fixes:
a). SL: per damage rocket up to 275 (for a start to see how it works on balance) . With my setup that is an increase of 80 damage per rocket, so 480 per volley
b). Increase SL mag size back to 4 (including change to Mini assault bonus to not have it do the increase); along w/ giving it a reserve of 8. Keeping it less then the total rounds of the FG, but more then PsC
c). SL range increase to 300-350m. SL is a long range weapon. Yes they are fire and forget, but can be "dodged" easily after first volley is hit (even if locked), as missile will hit into objects/terrain.
d). AV-nades need their pre 1.7 damage back; at least at proto level. A 1.2M skilled item should be OHK a free unskilled LAV
e). Plasma Cannon damage increase. Simply put for a one & done shot it is to weak. It has a slow travel time, really short range, and arc. Damage from this need to give tanks the WTF OMG scene, as they have a low ammo count, along w/ a reload after each shot. Damage should be up to 1250/1500/1750 respectively. This gives a good counter to all the above listed negatives they have. This also allows non heavy suit user a possibly extra way of protection (like how people FG snipe or use as anti-infantry)
3). This goes back to #1, but vehicles as a whole need to have hardener modules looked into. The amount of reduction isn't the problem, its more along the time they last, and the cooldown they have. I have no real idea how to fix for balance on this atm; however REAL tankers plz comment on this one. Not sure if their are passive hardeners anymore; but if not, a 1 hardener limit might be needed (however, I rather see hardeners changed then make a limit on them)
4). ADD ADC & PROTO VEHCILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This have been one of the biggest issues since Codex. Cant fully balance AV-vehicles when you don't have the adc/proto vehicles to see how AV affects them
5). Understand the tier balance. As it is, when I've played ive been one of the most outspoken on tier balance for AV-vehicles. As it is, AV should more or less have the advantage against vehicles, BECAUSE (as #4 says) you don't have adv/proto vehicles. It would/should only be natural that AV has the current advantage.
a). As is, AV should be able to rip though Soma/Sica's and take a **** on their burnt up hulls no Q's asked.
b). AV should have more of a difficult time against Gung/Mady however should still be able to solo, especially if using PROTO (not even adv. Adv should be a toss up at best, but maybe a 60% advantage to AV for tier advantage, but minimal advantage none less). Basic gear should be equal to, or even at disadvantage to Mady/Gung (55% adv for vehicles here).
So yeah, will have more when can think/focus. Let the discussion/flame/hatemail/etc begin .... GO
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:02:00 -
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The Robot Devil wrote:My problem with vehicles is that no one tries. There will be four HAVs on the field and I will be the only one actually trying to kill them with AV. With an advanced PLC, prox mines and standard AV nades I can usually get HAVs in to low armor but without help killing them is difficult. A full sqaud of AV mercs will wreck any vehicle we have very quickly. Three PLCs in a squad would just about do it. I like the heavy armor the way it is because it actually take some teamwork to get things done. For the record I don't have 1 point of SP in any vehicle skill and I have ridden in about two HAVs in the past month or two. I find HAVs boring to be in.
I think at the moment people don't "try" b/c at a certain point, it is just ridiculous that a militia tank can "shrug" off proto AV and takes several people to destroy. Like I said in my post, im a "firm" believer in the tier balance, and there isn't any at the moment, so for someone to take out adv/proto AV in a pub game in hopes of something helping to take out the vehicle with slim chance of doing so isn't full worth it.
Once there gets some resemblance of balance b/t AV and vehicles I think it will be "easier"/better in terms of how the interaction works. But from my example in my original post, about a 1/2 hp Mady begin hit by my 11.3k damage worth of smarms, along w/ a Fg be4 me and after to still survive is a bit crazy
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:03:00 -
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DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Proto Vehicles?
What, so like 30m ISK per Tank?
no, figure if keep hulls as it (though think should go back to the 200k hull. Have adv hull be 350-500k ; and proto hulls be 500800k. Yes, they are costly, but hopefully worth it as well if/when introduction
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:06:00 -
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:inb4 spkr and tankahiro
LOLz , +1 for that. Though is good to see actual logical thinking so far; when they hit the thread all logical will go out the window
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:16:00 -
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Otavio Martins wrote:give us tankers proposition number 4 and we can talk. i bet we will be much more flexible after this
gladly . Not because I wana be a masochist, but I think this will help the balance issue.
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:44:00 -
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Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Otavio Martins wrote:give us tankers proposition number 4 and we can talk. i bet we will be much more flexible after this gladly . Not because I wana be a masochist, but I think this will help the balance issue. The thing about proto vehicles is that if they're stronger than current STD objectively rather than situationally, like Dropsuits as opposed to Enforcers, AV will need to be buffed to be proportionately powerful. If I can be bothered getting into a proper position with my FG (and I'm not r*tarded and unable to shoot that day) I can solo most MLT HAVs (except hardener stacked Sicas) and I can either kill or put a serious dent in STD hulls. I just don't think this is a good idea for improving the V-AV relationship. Removing hardener stacking, buffing light AV and reducing speed would do wonders, I think.
well the thing is, we wont really know how things will work unless they are there. it is easier for a [competent] developer to add items to then balance, then it would be to balance something against an imaginary object. if adv/proto vehicles are way to overpowered compared to what proto av can do (even if multiple) then theoretically it'd be easy to make some what that would balance things out.
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Posted - 2014.02.19 02:26:00 -
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Atiim wrote:
Also, 300-350m is beyond it's rendering range, so I think it would only be fair to add an alarm system and give DSs flares once the swarms are beyond rendering distance.
I agree on the PLC buff, but 1750HP doesn't really give a WTF Just Happened?!" effect effect when I have about 3-4k Shields, and 2k Armor.. I believe that direct damage should be (1320/1650/1980) across respective tiers.
((I had to remove the rest as I reaced the Max. Character limit, but I do agree with your other points lol))
-HAND
thanks for the post and agreement on stuff. In regards to the swarm range, that could work (the alert), or maybe the devs/programmers could do their job so swarms render at that range maybe.....
Also for the PLC, I figured 1750 would work, b/c you can then take 15% from prof 5, say 2 10% mods, and the nature 20% bonus to shield would make it very scary in its own right (as w/ example there, at this 2850 damage in 1 shot for proto)
Again, cool to see someone else taking time to read the post (and heck even agreeing to an extent), as I'd like to believe im being quite unbiased in my opinions/fixes/observations
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Posted - 2014.02.19 02:29:00 -
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Auris Lionesse wrote:Agreed but I don't see the point in plasma cannon. Just use forge. much faster and more accurate.
Unless plasma wants to start at 2500 it'll still be worthless for WTF damage against tanks.
PLC is a 120/80% efficiency rating I believe, where FG is a 90/110. Granted with the"rof" of a FG it will out dps the PLC. Though I was being generous at the 1750 for proto PLC; I originally had it at over 2k, but figured it may of been to high when take damage efficiencies into account
Harpyja wrote:I think AV grenades should stay as they are. It's the LAVs that need to lose HP.
Simply, no . The problem isn't the hp of the lav's, its the damage output of the AV nades; b/c the av nades also need to be effective as well. At their current state, they are worthless against vehicles (even w/o hardeners active), which shouldn't be. One of the benefits of how AV nades worked, was it allowed players who weren't running with a SL/FG/PLC to have some impact against vehicles, as otherwise you had to run w/ your tail b/t your legs (even against militia lavs).
So yeah, the lav HP isn't the problem, its the AV-nade damage. It's simply to weak
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Posted - 2014.02.19 02:47:00 -
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The Robot Devil wrote:Just got done with a match with a HAV killing everyone. Me and one other guy was trying to destroy the HAV. I had it to half armor by myself...just never mind.
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Posted - 2014.02.19 03:34:00 -
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noobsniper the 2nd wrote:Just specinto prof 5 forges all your problems will go away trust me
These ideas are the problem here. This isn't a crying about tanks being OP, this is a way to fix things. Saying spec into something else isn't fixing the issue of how other forms of AV are effective. The game NEEDS to be balanced.
So before you post here (or on any topic) that is actually a non-troll/legit topic of people pooling their idea/mind, think for a minute. If you think what you have to say is "trollish" then just let it go, read the topic and enjoy but don't give input
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Posted - 2014.02.19 18:32:00 -
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Psychotic Shooter wrote:
Hey I'm a pro tanker and have been since closed beta I agree with your statement us tanks currently own the maps I don't think the av nades should be returned to pre 1.7 because they should not be used as a primary weapon but since av nades are ment to be used vs LAVs more than tank I think ccp should make them do 20% more toward since they are less armoured and have less resistance. On the hardener note shield ones should be bought down a notch since you can't scratch the tank armour ones are ok ATM the one thing is to reduce that active period one armour to about 25 second with as 35 second cool down and shield should last for 15 second and take 30 second to recharge this is because ahold are hit and run tanks while armour are endurance tanks
I don't think that armour tanks should have a reduction in hp since that is the only way we survive vs shield tanks
Is nice to see a realistic sensible tanker (as believe we were in IMP/IE together). As you said atm tanks rule the maps quite easily. As to av-nades, I think the basic/adv maybe need a tiny buff in their damage (like 10-20%); but the proto ones is where the damage really needs to be upped, especially for the Lai Dai's . For the cost of the skill required to unlock them, they are not SP/cost efficient as proto locus/flux. With people saying they are a secondary AV method; then then Grenadier skill should be changed to justify it. Have each grenade type be its own skill with each being a 1x, instead of all 3 combined as a 4x; as you'd save lots of SP for a secondary type AV method.
@ Takahiro
I understand that in skilling into your cooldown reductions to be of use; but for a balance aspect of the game, having an ~ oo loop of hardeners w/ passive reps; and faster speed then any infantry, MILITIA turrets that 3 shot dropsuit, it all just piles onto the imbalance's. If currently proto AV has difficultly in killing militia/basic hull tanks with these setups; how would their fair against adv/proto ... simple, they wouldn't. You'd be looking at requiring maybe 1/2 a team to take out one proto tank which isn't feasible.
Tanks need to have some weakness/counter; and another tank cant be the only one; as then that still leaves AV unbalanced. The biggest problem w/ tanks are the hardeners duration and cooldowns mostly; the resistence isn't the worst part (though ill need to look into the modules for a better answer on that). With the current setups you look at roughly a 5 second window of weakness which isn't feasible, as it take longer for an AV to register a hit at that point.
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Posted - 2014.02.19 20:41:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:1: Problem with that argument is that repps are passive. He just turned on the hardener. ALso, you could have jus waited until the hardeners went down and took him out. 2: swarms don't need a damage buff, and that lock on range is way outside of the rendering distance (and almost covers the range of each point of pretty much any map) a better solution would be at 225-250m. swarms do need a projectile speed buff. Not sure about the mag size to 4. Never saw the point in having 4 imo. I wouldn't mind it being 4 however. AV nades should just be replaced with stasis grenades. Lastly, PLC needs a rework. just buffing its damage could have some unintended effect (keep in mind that it's also a good AI weapon). 3: Timing is fine, it's just the rediculous damage reduction hey have (this is coming from a active tanker). This is how I would fix it, along with bringing a better fitting style, as it was better before. 4: Hell no. Tiercide. 5: If I'm paying somewhere around 500k for a single hull, I expect to live through some ****, not die in 10 seconds; also, all tiers does is break ****. I'd rather it be one tier, and we have weapon rigging to further build on the weapon.
1). As said haven't played in months so was unsure of how some modules worked now. however, I am positive as I was shooting him, he was repping armor. As to waiting, that wouldn't b/c of the ~oo hardner loop tanks have atm
2). You are paranoid in believing this. Even tankers here have said swarms need a damage buff. As to the rendering range, a minimum increase would have to be 250. Swarms = a javelin type launcher those are LONG RANGE weapons
4). Sorry to say, but tanks need their adv/proto hulls as that is the only way to get to balance, it to see how proto deals w/ proto
5). Well if you look at current module layout; a proto tank hull in my mind would be 5/3 , 3/5 etc respectively for the faction you choose. That give you loads of possibilities to do for setups.
Try again plz
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Posted - 2014.02.19 21:11:00 -
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hmm, cant argue with the illogical
For those who had logical thought-out opinions and ideas. I congratulate you on that, as it isn't often I see that on here, especially since the game went 'live"
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