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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4972
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Posted - 2014.02.18 17:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sounds bizarre, doesn't it? Hear me out, I'll be brief.
Pretty simple concept. Amarr and Caldari have, are and generally will get their asses handed to them in FW. So, incentivize the loss. Give them a bit more LP (Dust-side), just spit-balling but say 20% more LP. What's the worst that could happen, they get 90 LP for losing instead of 75? More talented players start fighting for them and even the odds?
Winning is incentive on it's own but we need a driving force to give some cyclical nature to FW and there are a few other games that have already hallmarked on this. Planetside 2, for instance, gives bonuses to factions with lower population.
Anyway, discuss.
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Hagintora
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
223
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Posted - 2014.02.18 18:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
You could always give ISK and LP bonuses for teams that pull a win out of a losing situation. So say the enemy team has your MCC down to its armor, and they still have most of their shields, an announcement could be made by the client company offering a percentage bonus if you're able to pull ahead and win.
But I wouldn't neccessarily offer more ISK or LP if you lose. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6877
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Posted - 2014.02.18 18:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't think that's the underlying issue behind FW.
The underlying issue comes in two forms. After playing a few matches of FW recently and after browsing the loyalty point store, I believe that I have come to the appropriate conclusion. Lack of racial parity and a totally lackluster new-player experience.
My first question that I asked myself was why these player kept gravitating to the Gallente and Minmatar factions while the opposing factions get the short end of the stick.
The lack of racial parity among suits and weapons offered in the loyalty store was the first thing I noticed. Caldari faction doesn't offer all of the weapons for their race. For example, nova knives are not sold in the loyalty store despite the obvious fact that these are Caldari weapons. There is also the fact that a lot of people are just not good with the laser or scrambler rifles. Another issue is that Amarr heavies don't have access to Minmatar hardware. What? Amarrians with Minmatar weaponry you say? BLASPHEMY!
Hold your horses. The HMG is technically a Minmatar weapon. Take a look at the loyalty store. Amarrians simply don't sell Minmatar HMGs. You have to play Minmatar to access those things. That's right, you gotta fight for your enemy to kill your enemy. Silly, I know. This is one of those things that's basically causing a major imbalance in the FW matches.
The second underlying issue here is the lack of a proper New-Player Experience. The academy doesn't feel anything like an academy. There are no actual training grounds. The tutorials don't give you all the details and the protostomping is not helping either. As a result, a massive number of players are joining FW not even knowing that you can pick sides (press Square) and thus Scotty routes them to factions that need players but aren't what the players wanted. You also have lack of coordination among players who probably don't even know how to communicate properly let alone realize they have an Eve player ready for their call overhead.
Conclusion:
No amount of incentives for winning for the Caldari and Amarr is going to help them win at all if these underlying issues are not addressed. If these issues do get addressed, then there won't be any need to incentivize winning for these losing factions.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Yokal Bob
G.R.A.V.E
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
384
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Posted - 2014.02.18 18:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
The problem is that for many in Dust (not all) they want to win, so they will run around in winmatar with Cal suits and a rail rifle just for padding their kdr and w/l ratios. I do however agree with Maken in that the modules and weapons are all over the plce in fw so you have to fight for more than one side if you want a complete suit
Cal suit - Caldari fw
Shield extenders - Minatar fw
Weapon - depends on your weapon of choice
Amarr suits - Amarr fw
HMG - Minmatar fw
Armour plates - Galente fw
etc...
It is not something that will be easy to fix from my point of view
CPM1 candidate
I want my logi tank back
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6878
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Posted - 2014.02.18 19:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yokal Bob wrote:The problem is that for many in Dust (not all) they want to win, so they will run around in winmatar with Cal suits and a rail rifle just for padding their kdr and w/l ratios. I do however agree with Maken in that the modules and weapons are all over the plce in fw so you have to fight for more than one side if you want a complete suit
Cal suit - Caldari fw
Shield extenders - Minatar fw
Weapon - depends on your weapon of choice
Amarr suits - Amarr fw
HMG - Minmatar fw
Armour plates - Galente fw
etc...
It is not something that will be easy to fix from my point of view
In regards to modules, that can be fixed by simply making the modules such as shield extenders, armor plates, etc. become neutral assets. At the same time, CCP should also introduce the remaining heavy weapons. So far, we have the Caldari Forge Gun, and the Minmatar HMG. Now we need a Gallente and Amarrian version of the heavy weapons so that Amarrian heavies can finally fight for the Amarr using Amarrian heavy gear.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9357
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Posted - 2014.02.18 19:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
I would also incentivize winning on a losing faction by the same percentage, so people won't just want to AFK farm the LP. Too many AFK farming on a losing enemy faction is already too appealing; guaranteed loss means no chance of losing standing from the winning faction, and gain LP. Simply raising losing LP would be bad for this reason, in fact it may be better to ONLY raise winning LP on a losing faction.
I support the general idea, would keep the tides of war changing, and lead to a more dynamic FW.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Ku Shala
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu
875
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Posted - 2014.02.18 19:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
make the bonus to the losing side for the first 5 players or what ever afk/ dumberry = no bonus lp
maybe award the bonus if you score over 1000wp in the match
For what is right. For what is ours, Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Join us today!
-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä
The States Necromancer
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Ghermard-ol Dizeriois
Maphia Clan Corporation
170
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Posted - 2014.02.18 19:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I would also incentivize winning on a losing faction by the same percentage, so people won't just want to AFK farm the LP. Too many AFK farming on a losing enemy faction is already too appealing; guaranteed loss means no chance of losing standing from the winning faction, and gain LP. Simply raising losing LP would be bad for this reason, in fact it may be better to ONLY raise winning LP on a losing faction.
THIS
@OP (Aeon): Kagehoshi is totally right here, the risk of LP farming becomes extremely high here: if I play as Caldari, not only I'll fight stronger enemies, but I'll also gain more LP by doing nothing: why should I exit from the MCC at all then!?
If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
2044
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Posted - 2014.02.18 20:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ku Shala wrote:make the bonus to the losing side for the first 5 players or what ever afk/ dumberry = no bonus lp
maybe award the bonus if you score over 1000wp in the match
This.
Incentivize the losing side by rewarding EFFORT, not just participation. If you score at the top of the board and/or get 1000wp for the losing side you get more LP and maybe 10-25 standings points.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Forum Warrior lv.2
Amarr victor!
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1935
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Sounds bizarre, doesn't it? Hear me out, I'll be brief.
Pretty simple concept. Amarr and Caldari have, are and generally will get their asses handed to them in FW. So, incentivize the loss. Give them a bit more LP (Dust-side), just spit-balling but say 20% more LP. What's the worst that could happen, they get 90 LP for losing instead of 75? More talented players start fighting for them and even the odds?
Winning is incentive on it's own but we need a driving force to give some cyclical nature to FW and there are a few other games that have already hallmarked on this. Planetside 2, for instance, gives bonuses to factions with lower population.
Anyway, discuss.
Giving a little more motive not to just pile on the winning side does seem good. Perhaps in part using the current ISK awards mechanic in FW would help as well, so when certain squads or players score high WP and stick through the whole match they earn more LP than current figures.
Another aspect is the standings gain issue. If you cannot level up your standing accept via a victory then why fight for a side that you're likely going to lose on? It gives even more reason just to try and play the winning side. However if something were added so that Mercs who fight for a faction that has lost most of it's ground turf were still able to get something as a standings gain even if they lost then this would give a better incentive to play for the side that was currently taking a beating.
Good thought Aeon,
Cheers,
Cross
SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
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Shadow Archeus
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
292
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
I've thought the losing team should get more sp
Say 20% more sp
Real heavies use lasers
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
667
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Posted - 2014.02.18 23:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I would also incentivize winning on a losing faction by the same percentage, so people won't just want to AFK farm the LP. To many AFK farming on a losing enemy faction is already too appealing; guaranteed loss means no chance of losing standing from the winning faction, and gain LP. Simply raising losing LP would be bad for this reason, in fact it may be better to ONLY raise winning LP on a losing faction.
I support the general idea, would keep the tides of war changing, and lead to a more dynamic FW.
I do like giving incentives to the factions getting beaten back, it's really needed because there is no reason to play Cal or Amarr unless you are REALLY dedicated.
However, I think you have to be very careful if you do this. You don't want everyone playing one faction until the other is pushed back into bonus LP then everyone just jumps on to that ship. I think you would really have to rework loyalty to ensure decent matches. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
9371
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Posted - 2014.02.19 00:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I would also incentivize winning on a losing faction by the same percentage, so people won't just want to AFK farm the LP. To many AFK farming on a losing enemy faction is already too appealing; guaranteed loss means no chance of losing standing from the winning faction, and gain LP. Simply raising losing LP would be bad for this reason, in fact it may be better to ONLY raise winning LP on a losing faction.
I support the general idea, would keep the tides of war changing, and lead to a more dynamic FW. I do like giving incentives to the factions getting beaten back, it's really needed because there is no reason to play Cal or Amarr unless you are REALLY dedicated. However, I think you have to be very careful if you do this. You don't want everyone playing one faction until the other is pushed back into bonus LP then everyone just jumps on to that ship. I think you would really have to rework loyalty to ensure decent matches.
I don't mind people switching back and forth between factions, we're mercenaries, not national soldiers. The hardcore loyal FW players will stick with their faction no matter what; the standing mechanic is enough to incentivize loyalty.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Kitt 514
True North.
110
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Posted - 2014.02.19 03:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Treat the top 5 players as if they won.
TaDa, good players will suddenly not feel so bad about joining a match they are probably going to lose. |
X7 lion
Swamp Tempo
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
125
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Posted - 2014.02.19 03:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Congrats, you sir are starting to see the fundamental issues with the game, but i am afraid your solution is only a bandage for the bigger issue of the fact the game mode (skirmish) is simply poor design.
I am death incarnate, you will not see me or hear me.
You shall only feel the strike of my blade.
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4977
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Posted - 2014.02.19 05:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ghermard-ol Dizeriois wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I would also incentivize winning on a losing faction by the same percentage, so people won't just want to AFK farm the LP. Too many AFK farming on a losing enemy faction is already too appealing; guaranteed loss means no chance of losing standing from the winning faction, and gain LP. Simply raising losing LP would be bad for this reason, in fact it may be better to ONLY raise winning LP on a losing faction. THIS @OP (Aeon): Kagehoshi is totally right here, the risk of LP farming becomes extremely high here: if I play as Caldari, not only I'll fight stronger enemies, but I'll also gain more LP by doing nothing: why should I exit from the MCC at all then!?
When I said "losing team", for all intents and purposes I had assumed the 20% LP increase for winning as well, demonstrating the worst effect it could have with the good effect being assumed. I'm saying that if the Faction itself is losing, they should receive some incentive to fight harder. Losing the match is a by-product of it, you don't gain standings and while it certainly incentivizes the win it doesn't really do much for the faction that is always consistently losing and has no territory.
Further more, consistently losing doesn't do much good for anyone because it goes back to the age old issue of "how do I cover my losses?" If you're not making enough LP to sustain your losses, you have to go fight pubs. Sound game design but the flaw in the logic is that the more people you have playing pubs to fund their FW affairs, the less you're actually going to have in FW. It's just a theory, but I'd say it's entirely plausible to kick a player out of FW by way of breaking their bank.
I don't really think that AFK farming is that big of a deal in Faction Warfare (having fought for all factions) because of that incentive to win. Getting an additional 20% LP on a loss isn't much but getting 20% more LP for a win is far more appealing; so it sort of balances itself out.
X7 lion wrote:Congrats, you sir are starting to see the fundamental issues with the game, but i am afraid your solution is only a bandage for the bigger issue of the fact the game mode (skirmish) is simply poor design.
Starting to? Hahaha, I've been coming up with theories (albeit, not always good ones) to help this game out since it was released 
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Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
334
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Posted - 2014.02.19 06:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Player market should help a little (not enough I think but some) since it'd make the losing side's LP more valuable. |
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