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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
680
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:No, the problem is ABSOLUTELY damage. The fact that you had to use Proto Swarms as the baseline for your argument is as much proof of that as anything else. STD and ADV swarms are, in most cases, not even worth mentioning on the battlefield and with the way that Swarms scale as you level them up, even at ADV you'll have trouble taking out any sort of LAV let alone being a threat to any Militia tank someone takes 2 seconds to call out on the field.
1. AV needs damage done to vehicles reflected as a WP bonus to further incentive their continued use.
2. Damage for STD/ADV swarms needs to be raised SIGNIFICANTLY in order to compete with the proto variant. There is a MASSIVE 50% bonus to damage going from STD -> PRO, this is unprecedented when it comes to literally any other weapon in the game. Toss the +1 Swarm per tier thing and just raise base damage of the 4 base swarms as you level up, keep PRO where it's at in terms of overall damage and make STD and ADV much closer to that base. I am all for these changes. I want proto swarms to stay where they are at, because they are in a good spot. I'll take a standard/advanced swarm buff with glee.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
680
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
To ratamaq: I may not be on at that time, but I've got you in my contact list, so we can figure out a time to do it. I'm able to be on dust most evenings, just that Mondays I have a set evening plan.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
680
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:I pointed this out in the OP. Proto AV vs Standard vehicles is going to cause imbalances. Honestly, a simple solution might be making the current proto swarms into standard swarms, and removing advanced and proto swarms. Then when advanced and proto vehicles are introduced, we can bring back advanced and proto av, balanced off of the new standard swarm launcher. If by that you mean standard swarms would fire 6 missle per shot then I would agree, as then the isk cost would be well worth throwing 5 av swarmers (And temporarily cripple your team against the 13-15 infantry vs. your 11 infantry) at them if each suit costs 8k each. Exactly what I mean. the current proto swarm would be the new standard/militia swarm. Then we up the damage from there.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
275
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Again, the issue isn't damage, but the application of such. These numbers are to give a general idea. I won't run numbers for all possible combinations of Swarms vs tanks because that'd take forever. But they aren't as bad as people make out. The issue, again, is that tanks can easily escape that damage.
As an infantry example, the DPS of HMGs before the hotfix was perfect. The reason it suffered was the application of its dps, which was hotfixed.
I understand what you're getting at and would agree if not for the passive reps. There are times when tanks just seem to passively rep through my 2 clips of ammo before moving on. No hardeners are required for a tank to ignore a SL.
What bugs me about the SL is that they are too easily countered. All that it takes is a hardener or a repper. Just about every tank runs at least one of these things. I've sat there with 2 other blueberries just desperately pelting a tank with SLs while it sat killing others with hardeners and reps. This is unacceptable. It should not be "one module to counter one infantry". Right now a tank's survival is not necessarily dependent on the pilot's skill when it comes to AV. It all comes down to whether or not the SL pack can be within 100 meters when it's hardener runs out.
The situation you outlined is militia tank, unfitted, sitting there taking a beating from a proto SL. This never really happens in practice so I don't really concern myself with how quickly I could or couldn't destroy it.
I appreciate you taking the time to run some numbers and I realize you acknowledged that you only ran them for this scenario. I would suggest someone takes this to the next level and includes a module of some sort (rep/hardener) as this is the case that people see most often. To base an opinion about AV based on a scenario like this would be like basing an opinion of the flaylock on a situation in which someone stands still to take the direct impact shots. |
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
680
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 20:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Again, it seems a lot of the issue is proto swarms and standard tanks. I'm for a swarm buff, don't get me wrong, but not a buff to its raw damage. I would also see a hardener limit, and have all hardeners have the same long cooldown, to emphasize the wave of opportunity concept.
All an increased cool down would do would have the tanker recall instead of waiting for cool down. The duration needs to be shorter. Tanks don't leave the redline with their hardeners on and only stay out as long as they're active. They activate them IF and WHEN they start getting hit by AV. At that point they have the length of their hardener to neutralize that threat. Only if the hardener goes down and the threat is still present do they need to retreat. The rest of the time they can just keep their figure on the god mode button without using it. You have a good point about the recall to bypass cooldowns. An increase on the timer would help with that. Something like a 2-3 minute wait to get a new vehicle. Long enough that waiting for the cooldown to finish cycling is more efficient than recalling.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1036
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
i stopped reading when i got to "swarms vs dropships is good"
I will logi the s* out of you
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
681
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Again, the issue isn't damage, but the application of such. These numbers are to give a general idea. I won't run numbers for all possible combinations of Swarms vs tanks because that'd take forever. But they aren't as bad as people make out. The issue, again, is that tanks can easily escape that damage.
As an infantry example, the DPS of HMGs before the hotfix was perfect. The reason it suffered was the application of its dps, which was hotfixed. I understand what you're getting at and would agree if not for the passive reps. There are times when tanks just seem to passively rep through my 2 clips of ammo before moving on. No hardeners are required for a tank to ignore a SL. What bugs me about the SL is that they are too easily countered. All that it takes is a hardener or a repper. Just about every tank runs at least one of these things. I've sat there with 2 other blueberries just desperately pelting a tank with SLs while it sat killing others with hardeners and reps. This is unacceptable. It should not be "one module to counter one infantry". Right now a tank's survival is not necessarily dependent on the pilot's skill when it comes to AV. It all comes down to whether or not the SL pack can be within 100 meters when it's hardener runs out. The situation you outlined is militia tank, unfitted, sitting there taking a beating from a proto SL. This never really happens in practice so I don't really concern myself with how quickly I could or couldn't destroy it. I appreciate you taking the time to run some numbers and I realize you acknowledged that you only ran them for this scenario. I would suggest someone takes this to the next level and includes a module of some sort (rep/hardener) as this is the case that people see most often. To base an opinion about AV based on a scenario like this would be like basing an opinion of the flaylock on a situation in which someone stands still to take the direct impact shots. The point of hardeners is to neutralize AV damage. The issue is tanks can run multiple hardeners to bypass the cooldowns. Limiting one hardener per vehicle, and having the same uptime and cooldown throughout the tiers, would go a long way to fixing this.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
406
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Again, the issue isn't damage, but the application of such. These numbers are to give a general idea. I won't run numbers for all possible combinations of Swarms vs tanks because that'd take forever. But they aren't as bad as people make out. The issue, again, is that tanks can easily escape that damage.
As an infantry example, the DPS of HMGs before the hotfix was perfect. The reason it suffered was the application of its dps, which was hotfixed. I understand what you're getting at and would agree if not for the passive reps. There are times when tanks just seem to passively rep through my 2 clips of ammo before moving on. No hardeners are required for a tank to ignore a SL. What bugs me about the SL is that they are too easily countered. All that it takes is a hardener or a repper. Just about every tank runs at least one of these things. I've sat there with 2 other blueberries just desperately pelting a tank with SLs while it sat killing others with hardeners and reps. This is unacceptable. It should not be "one module to counter one infantry". Right now a tank's survival is not necessarily dependent on the pilot's skill when it comes to AV. It all comes down to whether or not the SL pack can be within 100 meters when it's hardener runs out. The situation you outlined is militia tank, unfitted, sitting there taking a beating from a proto SL. This never really happens in practice so I don't really concern myself with how quickly I could or couldn't destroy it. I appreciate you taking the time to run some numbers and I realize you acknowledged that you only ran them for this scenario. I would suggest someone takes this to the next level and includes a module of some sort (rep/hardener) as this is the case that people see most often. To base an opinion about AV based on a scenario like this would be like basing an opinion of the flaylock on a situation in which someone stands still to take the direct impact shots. The point of hardeners is to neutralize AV damage. The issue is tanks can run multiple hardeners to bypass the cooldowns. Limiting one hardener per vehicle, and having the same uptime and cooldown throughout the tiers, would go a long way to fixing this.
So if you were to rephrase you OP, swarms damage is fine if all the following are true:
STD gets 6 missiles Cool downs take twice as long Vehicles can't be called in for 2 minutes after return (which wouldn't work because you call before you recall) Only one hardener per vehicle. Reduce tank speed
Is that the base we are working from now?
YouTube
30D Recruiting
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
681
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:39:00 -
[39] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Again, the issue isn't damage, but the application of such. These numbers are to give a general idea. I won't run numbers for all possible combinations of Swarms vs tanks because that'd take forever. But they aren't as bad as people make out. The issue, again, is that tanks can easily escape that damage.
As an infantry example, the DPS of HMGs before the hotfix was perfect. The reason it suffered was the application of its dps, which was hotfixed. I understand what you're getting at and would agree if not for the passive reps. There are times when tanks just seem to passively rep through my 2 clips of ammo before moving on. No hardeners are required for a tank to ignore a SL. What bugs me about the SL is that they are too easily countered. All that it takes is a hardener or a repper. Just about every tank runs at least one of these things. I've sat there with 2 other blueberries just desperately pelting a tank with SLs while it sat killing others with hardeners and reps. This is unacceptable. It should not be "one module to counter one infantry". Right now a tank's survival is not necessarily dependent on the pilot's skill when it comes to AV. It all comes down to whether or not the SL pack can be within 100 meters when it's hardener runs out. The situation you outlined is militia tank, unfitted, sitting there taking a beating from a proto SL. This never really happens in practice so I don't really concern myself with how quickly I could or couldn't destroy it. I appreciate you taking the time to run some numbers and I realize you acknowledged that you only ran them for this scenario. I would suggest someone takes this to the next level and includes a module of some sort (rep/hardener) as this is the case that people see most often. To base an opinion about AV based on a scenario like this would be like basing an opinion of the flaylock on a situation in which someone stands still to take the direct impact shots. The point of hardeners is to neutralize AV damage. The issue is tanks can run multiple hardeners to bypass the cooldowns. Limiting one hardener per vehicle, and having the same uptime and cooldown throughout the tiers, would go a long way to fixing this. So if you were to rephrase you OP, swarms damage is fine if all the following are true: STD gets 6 missiles Cool downs take twice as long Vehicles can't be called in for 2 minutes after return (which wouldn't work because you call before you recall) Only one hardener per vehicle. Reduce tank speed Is that the base we are working from now? Basically yes. I want swarms to be able to wound/kill tanks without buffing their damage to levels that makes dropships and LAVs unplayable.
About hardeners. They should all have the same long cooldown, for instance whatever the current militia hardener cooldown is. Then have base resistance increase as you go up the tiers. 60% for standard, 70% for advanced, 80% for proto. I want vehicles to be powerful when there hardeners are up, so they can do what they need to do without having to worry about AV. But once that hardener goes into cooldown, AV should have a large window with which to kill them/drive them off, and they shouldn't have to worry about that vehicle returning for an appreciable amount of time.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
262
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote:Maths good, your logic based on a lack of experience though is profound. Without all the maths, heres how you know its weaksauce, 10 tanks on the field and none get killed by swarms. Simple maths. Now all your clip size and prof is im sure correct, but the swarmer will very often not have time to get all of these away much less reload due to the fact that he has to be within 100 meters, infantry that immediately kill you, the tank will target you and wisely so, and if all else fails they will out run your swarms, math doesnt account for practicality. That's what my point is. Tanks can too easily avoid swarms. The problem is swarms cannot apply their dps to a tank. Ok ok I see where you said that now, duh, ok good post, my sentiment exactly. |
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