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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
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Posted - 2014.02.17 19:02:00 -
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I don't think your math is accounting for all the factors. Not many tanks worth worrying about would be running without reps for armor, so though you said no mods, you should at least account for the 100hp per second the lowest mod gets you. If you want to talk about mod less tanks, then keep the swarm numbers to militia.
So with that in mind, two questions.
Question 1. How much shield and armor can recharge/regen between volleys? Then Reloads?
Question 2. How much distance can be put between a tank and a merc firing swarms accounting for your proposed speed reduction
Question 3. How many volleys do you think a merc with a swarm launcher can realistically get off before that tank can escape his firing range?
Fact is it takes multiple proto swarm volleys to take out a militia LAV at the moment, do you think there is a problem with that?
I'd love to see a test of how many volleys it takes for a proto swarm to kill and unfitted Sica (just sitting stationary) and a Soma fitted with 1 Rep. I bet it's more than the math you have up says.
1 mil ISK to the person who puts this video up first, showing both militia and proto swarms.
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
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Posted - 2014.02.17 19:23:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote:Maths good, your logic based on a lack of experience though is profound. Without all the maths, heres how you know its weaksauce, 10 tanks on the field and none get killed by swarms. Simple maths. Now all your clip size and prof is im sure correct, but the swarmer will very often not have time to get all of these away much less reload due to the fact that he has to be within 100 meters, infantry that immediately kill you, the tank will target you and wisely so, and if all else fails they will out run your swarms, math doesnt account for practicality. That's what my point is. Tanks can too easily avoid swarms. The problem is swarms cannot apply their dps to a tank.
You can't apply full DPS to DSes either. Here is a video of 3 swarms trying to dent a hardened DS. The video starts after I've already emptied ALL my ammo into him. He flew 1 circle around the map and came back with his hardeners back up. You see me and two other swarms unloading and the armor DS not even concerned.
http://youtu.be/TBuR3yZ3dD8
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
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Posted - 2014.02.17 19:29:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:I don't think your math is accounting for all the factors. Not many tanks worth worrying about would be running without reps for armor, so though you said no mods, you should at least account for the 100hp per second the lowest mod gets you. If you want to talk about mod less tanks, then keep the swarm numbers to militia.
So with that in mind, two questions.
Question 1. How much shield and armor can recharge/regen between volleys? Then Reloads?
Question 2. How much distance can be put between a tank and a merc firing swarms accounting for your proposed speed reduction
Question 3. How many volleys do you think a merc with a swarm launcher can realistically get off before that tank can escape his firing range?
Fact is it takes multiple proto swarm volleys to take out a militia LAV at the moment, do you think there is a problem with that?
I'd love to see a test of how many volleys it takes for a proto swarm to kill and unfitted Sica (just sitting stationary) and a Soma fitted with 1 Rep. I bet it's more than the math you have up says.
1 mil ISK to the person who puts this video up first, showing both militia and proto swarms. Answer 1: On a Sica, the shield delay is 4 sec. Swarm relock spped is 0.3 seconds. You can easily launch all 3 swarms before the shield begins its recharge. Once you need to reload, the shield will have been depleted, which means you have about 9-12 seconds to reload and continue firing. Shield regen therefore is not a factor. On the Soma, the 100hp/s rep would rep 200 armor if you took two seconds to get all swarm volleys off in 2 sec. Answer 2: This one is tricky. A tank needs some speed in order to get to where it is needed in a timely manner. But it also needs to be slow enough that swarms can apply their damage to it. Perhaps a combination of tank speed nerf and a swarm speed buff would be perfect. Answer 3: This is another tricky one. How far away is the swarmer when he begins firing? What direction is the tank moving? Toward him or away from him? I'm not sure how to answer. A militia LAV is in a good place against swarms, because his tank comes from his speed. It would take one, maybe two swarms to down most any LAV. The LAV therefore avoids damage through speed. EDIT: I will gladly sacrifice some of my militia tanks to swarm launcher testing if someone is willing to make a video of it to post here. I have no video recording equipment nor the knowledge of what to do, or I'd do it myself.
It's .3 seconds before you can begin re locking, not between shots. I have swarms and can record. Let's get together and shoot some videos. I'll pay for you vehicle losses myself.
Edit: doesn't the Sica come with a shield booster?
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
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Posted - 2014.02.17 19:48:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:Again, it seems a lot of the issue is proto swarms and standard tanks. I'm for a swarm buff, don't get me wrong, but not a buff to its raw damage. I would also see a hardener limit, and have all hardeners have the same long cooldown, to emphasize the wave of opportunity concept.
All an increased cool down would do would have the tanker recall instead of waiting for cool down. The duration needs to be shorter. Tanks don't leave the redline with their hardeners on and only stay out as long as they're active. They activate them IF and WHEN they start getting hit by AV. At that point they have the length of their hardener to neutralize that threat. Only if the hardener goes down and the threat is still present do they need to retreat. The rest of the time they can just keep their figure on the god mode button without using it.
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ratamaq doc
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Posted - 2014.02.17 19:49:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:ratamaq, I sent you an in game mail.
Great. I get off work in 4 hours. If you are around then we can meet up.
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ratamaq doc
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:33:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Again, the issue isn't damage, but the application of such. These numbers are to give a general idea. I won't run numbers for all possible combinations of Swarms vs tanks because that'd take forever. But they aren't as bad as people make out. The issue, again, is that tanks can easily escape that damage.
As an infantry example, the DPS of HMGs before the hotfix was perfect. The reason it suffered was the application of its dps, which was hotfixed. I understand what you're getting at and would agree if not for the passive reps. There are times when tanks just seem to passively rep through my 2 clips of ammo before moving on. No hardeners are required for a tank to ignore a SL. What bugs me about the SL is that they are too easily countered. All that it takes is a hardener or a repper. Just about every tank runs at least one of these things. I've sat there with 2 other blueberries just desperately pelting a tank with SLs while it sat killing others with hardeners and reps. This is unacceptable. It should not be "one module to counter one infantry". Right now a tank's survival is not necessarily dependent on the pilot's skill when it comes to AV. It all comes down to whether or not the SL pack can be within 100 meters when it's hardener runs out. The situation you outlined is militia tank, unfitted, sitting there taking a beating from a proto SL. This never really happens in practice so I don't really concern myself with how quickly I could or couldn't destroy it. I appreciate you taking the time to run some numbers and I realize you acknowledged that you only ran them for this scenario. I would suggest someone takes this to the next level and includes a module of some sort (rep/hardener) as this is the case that people see most often. To base an opinion about AV based on a scenario like this would be like basing an opinion of the flaylock on a situation in which someone stands still to take the direct impact shots. The point of hardeners is to neutralize AV damage. The issue is tanks can run multiple hardeners to bypass the cooldowns. Limiting one hardener per vehicle, and having the same uptime and cooldown throughout the tiers, would go a long way to fixing this.
So if you were to rephrase you OP, swarms damage is fine if all the following are true:
STD gets 6 missiles Cool downs take twice as long Vehicles can't be called in for 2 minutes after return (which wouldn't work because you call before you recall) Only one hardener per vehicle. Reduce tank speed
Is that the base we are working from now?
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