DUST Search - Tanks aren't that bad in general

Django Quik wrote:

In the last few days I have killed multiple Madrugars and the odd Gunlogi with my REs and fluxes/AV nades - this means that these things are well balanced to each other but is not to say that tanks vs swarms/plasma cannon are balanced.

I never feel that aggrieved when I see a skilled into tank doing well in battle. You rarely see multiple maddies/gunnies on the field - usually it's just one or two with about half a dozen sicas or somas and herein lies the real problem. MLT tanks are cheap and powerful and difficult to kill using AV weapons, almost as much so as standard tanks.

If MLT tanks only had 2 out of these three qualities, it would be fine:

1) Cheap and powerful but fairly easy to kill - IMHO this is what MLT tanks should be
2) Cheap and difficult to kill but not very powerful killing machines - this would be similar to the old logi LAVs
3) Difficult to kill and powerful but expensive - this is what standard tanks are

Now before the tanking brigade goes all trolly on me for this thread, please note that I have nothing against tanks in general and would not be against keeping standard tanks as they are for the time being, so we could see how the balance would change when MLTs are less effective.

If we were to go ahead with my preference of reducing MLT tank effectiveness, perhaps one option would be to take away one slot and reduce their CPU/PG accordingly. It may also then be additionally appropriate to lower their eHP too but I think it would be best to go bit by bit and see what the effects are before going the whole hog.

Edit - also, my ability to kill standard tanks with my REs does not mean they are OP - I am very good at doing this, getting into the right positions and waiting for the right timing, often when someone else has taken a few pot shots at it with a forge/tank to do half the work for me.

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Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2200	Posted - 2014.02.16 11:29:00 - [1] - Quote In the last few days I have killed multiple Madrugars and the odd Gunlogi with my REs and fluxes/AV nades - this means that these things are well balanced to each other but is not to say that tanks vs swarms/plasma cannon are balanced. I never feel that aggrieved when I see a skilled into tank doing well in battle. You rarely see multiple maddies/gunnies on the field - usually it's just one or two with about half a dozen sicas or somas and herein lies the real problem. MLT tanks are cheap and powerful and difficult to kill using AV weapons, almost as much so as standard tanks. If MLT tanks only had 2 out of these three qualities, it would be fine: 1) Cheap and powerful but fairly easy to kill - IMHO this is what MLT tanks should be 2) Cheap and difficult to kill but not very powerful killing machines - this would be similar to the old logi LAVs 3) Difficult to kill and powerful but expensive - this is what standard tanks are Now before the tanking brigade goes all trolly on me for this thread, please note that I have nothing against tanks in general and would not be against keeping standard tanks as they are for the time being, so we could see how the balance would change when MLTs are less effective. If we were to go ahead with my preference of reducing MLT tank effectiveness, perhaps one option would be to take away one slot and reduce their CPU/PG accordingly. It may also then be additionally appropriate to lower their eHP too but I think it would be best to go bit by bit and see what the effects are before going the whole hog. Edit - also, my ability to kill standard tanks with my REs does not mean they are OP - I am very good at doing this, getting into the right positions and waiting for the right timing, often when someone else has taken a few pot shots at it with a forge/tank to do half the work for me. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution 721	Posted - 2014.02.16 11:35:00 - [2] - Quote Django Quik wrote: In the last few days I have killed multiple Madrugars and the odd Gunlogi with my REs and fluxes/AV nades - this means that these things are well balanced to each other but is not to say that tanks vs swarms/plasma cannon are balanced. I never feel that aggrieved when I see a skilled into tank doing well in battle. You rarely see multiple maddies/gunnies on the field - usually it's just one or two with about half a dozen sicas or somas and herein lies the real problem. MLT tanks are cheap and powerful and difficult to kill using AV weapons, almost as much so as standard tanks. If MLT tanks only had 2 out of these three qualities, it would be fine: 1) Cheap and powerful but fairly easy to kill - IMHO this is what MLT tanks should be 2) Cheap and difficult to kill but not very powerful killing machines - this would be similar to the old logi LAVs 3) Difficult to kill and powerful but expensive - this is what standard tanks are Now before the tanking brigade goes all trolly on me for this thread, please note that I have nothing against tanks in general and would not be against keeping standard tanks as they are for the time being, so we could see how the balance would change when MLTs are less effective. If we were to go ahead with my preference of reducing MLT tank effectiveness, perhaps one option would be to take away one slot and reduce their CPU/PG accordingly. It may also then be additionally appropriate to lower their eHP too but I think it would be best to go bit by bit and see what the effects are before going the whole hog. Edit - also, my ability to kill standard tanks with my REs does not mean they are OP - I am very good at doing this, getting into the right positions and waiting for the right timing, often when someone else has taken a few pot shots at it with a forge/tank to do half the work for me. No, Maddies and Gunnlogis are already Godmode, and would be even more Godmode if the one threat to them, the MLT rail tank, were nerfed. Buffing AV is the way to go.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2201	Posted - 2014.02.16 11:39:00 - [3] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: No, Maddies and Gunnlogis are already Godmode, and would be even more Godmode if the one threat to them, the MLT rail tank, were nerfed. Buffing AV is the way to go. My proposal would not stop MLT rail tanks killing STD tanks but they'd have to be smarter about it than just going in gung ho head to head with a blaster/missile tank at close range. That said, a speed/acceleration nerf to all HAVs wouldn't go amiss. Also, I never said don't buff AV. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution 721	Posted - 2014.02.16 11:50:00 - [4] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: No, Maddies and Gunnlogis are already Godmode, and would be even more Godmode if the one threat to them, the MLT rail tank, were nerfed. Buffing AV is the way to go. My proposal would not stop MLT rail tanks killing STD tanks but they'd have to be smarter about it than just going in gung ho head to head with a blaster/missile tank at close range. That said, a speed/acceleration nerf to all HAVs wouldn't go amiss. Also, I never said don't buff AV. An MLT rail should be able to beat a blaster/missile tank 'head to head'. They've severely compromised their anti-infantry capacity in order to carry a specifically AV weapon. Maddy/gunnlogi users can always use rails themselves and be dominant in tank versus tank. As far as I can see, buffing AV deals with the problem regarding tank versus infantry, without upsetting the MLT versus standard tank balance, which is actually okay now - as in, the standard tank will win when they have the same fit, but is not so dominant that it can fit an anti-infantry weapon (blaster) and still expect to beat an anti-tank (rail) MLT tank.
Stinker Butt Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 360	Posted - 2014.02.16 11:50:00 - [5] - Quote Django Quik wrote: In the last few days I have killed multiple Madrugars and the odd Gunlogi with my REs and fluxes/AV nades - this means that these things are well balanced to each other but is not to say that tanks vs swarms/plasma cannon are balanced. I never feel that aggrieved when I see a skilled into tank doing well in battle. You rarely see multiple maddies/gunnies on the field - usually it's just one or two with about half a dozen sicas or somas and herein lies the real problem. MLT tanks are cheap and powerful and difficult to kill using AV weapons, almost as much so as standard tanks. If MLT tanks only had 2 out of these three qualities, it would be fine: 1) Cheap and powerful but fairly easy to kill - IMHO this is what MLT tanks should be 2) Cheap and difficult to kill but not very powerful killing machines - this would be similar to the old logi LAVs 3) Difficult to kill and powerful but expensive - this is what standard tanks are Now before the tanking brigade goes all trolly on me for this thread, please note that I have nothing against tanks in general and would not be against keeping standard tanks as they are for the time being, so we could see how the balance would change when MLTs are less effective. If we were to go ahead with my preference of reducing MLT tank effectiveness, perhaps one option would be to take away one slot and reduce their CPU/PG accordingly. It may also then be additionally appropriate to lower their eHP too but I think it would be best to go bit by bit and see what the effects are before going the whole hog. Edit - also, my ability to kill standard tanks with my REs does not mean they are OP - I am very good at doing this, getting into the right positions and waiting for the right timing, often when someone else has taken a few pot shots at it with a forge/tank to do half the work for me. For the most part, I agree with you. I do think that they are OP, but 1-2 tanks are fine, 3+ begin to be ridiculous. They are too easily spammable, and they are too fast. Rail tanks are just plain OP. A redline rail tank can cover the entire map with minimal threat to himself. Good luck getting your RE's and AV nades on that one. Please give tanks some balance
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1693	Posted - 2014.02.16 12:07:00 - [6] - Quote I'm thinking that price increases to hulls by about 2x would be a good idea, as well as removing hardener (and damage mod, to keep the balance) stacking. Speed needs to be cut by a bit too, but I'd be very upset if my Gunnlogi lost its manoeuvrability. Swarms and PLC need a bit of a buff (swarms could do with some small range and damage increases, IMO, and PLC a clip increase, maybe?), and my Sentinel suit wants an RE nerf of some kind. I think the balance we should be looking for is PRO FG vs. complex-fit HAV. I think the top level of HAVs performs in a pretty balanced fashion vs. FG. I certainly don't want my forge gun to go back to 1.6 charge times; I can nearly take some of these MLT HAVs on in an open field without any cover as it is. Forge on for great justice! Defend the meek! Destroy the weak! Q-sync breaches into the rectum of everyone else!
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2201	Posted - 2014.02.16 12:26:00 - [7] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Django Quik wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: No, Maddies and Gunnlogis are already Godmode, and would be even more Godmode if the one threat to them, the MLT rail tank, were nerfed. Buffing AV is the way to go. My proposal would not stop MLT rail tanks killing STD tanks but they'd have to be smarter about it than just going in gung ho head to head with a blaster/missile tank at close range. That said, a speed/acceleration nerf to all HAVs wouldn't go amiss. Also, I never said don't buff AV. An MLT rail should be able to beat a blaster/missile tank 'head to head'. They've severely compromised their anti-infantry capacity in order to carry a specifically AV weapon. Maddy/gunnlogi users can always use rails themselves and be dominant in tank versus tank. As far as I can see, buffing AV deals with the problem regarding tank versus infantry, without upsetting the MLT versus standard tank balance, which is actually okay now - as in, the standard tank will win when they have the same fit, but is not so dominant that it can fit an anti-infantry weapon (blaster) and still expect to beat an anti-tank (rail) MLT tank. A rail tank should never beat a blaster/missile tank in close range unless it gets the jump on it - the whole point of rail tanks is ranged power. MLT rail tanks should be keeping out of blaster range. That said, blasters do seem to be generally OP now for MLT or STD HAVs. Maybe smaller clips, longer reload times and or lower ROF could fix that but I'm nonetheless of the opinion that MLT tanks need to be more fragile. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 1979	Posted - 2014.02.16 12:32:00 - [8] - Quote No mlt isn't the root of the problem, 'spam' isn't the problem. Here is a theoretical situation, if we REMOVED mlt tanks would tanks still be OP? And why? Spkr4thedead: Me > AV This is why tanks are unbalanced Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.
Echo 1991 WarRavens League of Infamy 50	Posted - 2014.02.16 12:34:00 - [9] - Quote Tanks are fine. It is the blasters, rails, hardeners and speed that are the problem. They need to make the modules more balanced and/or make it somewhat harder for a blaster to hit infantry cos getting killed from 200m away is a joke.
Stinker Butt Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 360	Posted - 2014.02.16 12:48:00 - [10] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Here is a theoretical situation, if we REMOVED mlt tanks would tanks still be OP? And why? They would still be the most powerful offensive, most powerful defensive, and among the fastest items in the game. AND they can be spammed to 7 at a time. AND 10 seconds after destroying one, it would be right back again. AND most of them are cheaper than proto infantry fits. No doubt about it, they would still be OP. Please give tanks some balance

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 1979	Posted - 2014.02.16 13:22:00 - [11] - Quote Stinker Butt wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Here is a theoretical situation, if we REMOVED mlt tanks would tanks still be OP? And why? They would still be the most powerful offensive, most powerful defensive, and among the fastest items in the game. AND they can be spammed to 7 at a time. AND 10 seconds after destroying one, it would be right back again. AND most of them are cheaper than proto infantry fits. No doubt about it, they would still be OP. My point precisely, now for another question. So mlt tanks are no more, but the tank problem still persits, so CCP say ok lets raise the price to 10mil per tank, will they still be OP? And why? Spkr4thedead: Me > AV This is why tanks are unbalanced Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.
Hynox Xitio Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 34	Posted - 2014.02.16 13:30:00 - [12] - Quote Upon initial inspection, I thought you said that Martin Luther King was part of the problem. I only clicked on it to see potential shenanigans. So I'm taking the liberty of making my own shenanigans. http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/3/2933/thumb_620x2000/tumblr_m90f6l8Rba1qe7sl3o1_400.jpg Unleash the Fogwoggler
Stinker Butt Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 360	Posted - 2014.02.16 13:31:00 - [13] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: So mlt tanks are no more, but the tank problem still persits, so CCP say ok lets raise the price to 10mil per tank, will they still be OP? And why? Nobody would use them, so I guess it would be a mute point. They certainly wouldn't be spammed. The only tanker left would probably be the red-line rail tank. Please give tanks some balance
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 1980	Posted - 2014.02.16 13:32:00 - [14] - Quote Stinker Butt wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: So mlt tanks are no more, but the tank problem still persits, so CCP say ok lets raise the price to 10mil per tank, will they still be OP? And why? Nobody would use them, so I guess it would be a mute point. They certainly wouldn't be spammed. The only tanker left would probably be the red-line rail tank. Or? How about Nyan San or the tryhards? If it costs 10mil per tank, who is gonna stump up the money to fight it? Spkr4thedead: Me > AV This is why tanks are unbalanced Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.
Stinker Butt Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 361	Posted - 2014.02.16 13:54:00 - [15] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Or? How about Nyan San or the tryhards? If it costs 10mil per tank, who is gonna stump up the money to fight it? I'm not really sure. I suppose if someone is paying 10 mil isk, it's understandable if they're OP. They would certainly be a fun target, and I hope the killer/killers would get some piece of that. Please give tanks some balance
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2201	Posted - 2014.02.16 14:00:00 - [16] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Stinker Butt wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: So mlt tanks are no more, but the tank problem still persits, so CCP say ok lets raise the price to 10mil per tank, will they still be OP? And why? Nobody would use them, so I guess it would be a mute point. They certainly wouldn't be spammed. The only tanker left would probably be the red-line rail tank. Or? How about Nyan San or the tryhards? If it costs 10mil per tank, who is gonna stump up the money to fight it? Yeah, the PC whoring brigade would still run them and we've all seen how balancing by isk is really quite pointless all in all. However, the payouts for killing one would be amazing and if they were as strong as they are now, that would still happen. In most matches you'd only see one or maybe two, so they'd be easier to take on than the untouchable convoys all watching each other's back that we have at the moment. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
iTbagyou Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 213	Posted - 2014.02.16 14:02:00 - [17] - Quote Lower the pg cpu on mlt tanks. Double the price as well as set it so it can only run mlt modules or turrets. Or, make mlt tanks cant remove the small turrets. I think most can agree a price increase is needed. I disagree with limiting hardners or dmg mods. Hows about make it so infantry can only use 2 extenders or armor plates, 1 dmg mod. Official spokesman of Lipton Tea.
Hynox Xitio Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 40	Posted - 2014.02.16 14:10:00 - [18] - Quote See now I think this article SHOULD be about Martin Luther King, for the sake of maximum derail. Unleash the Fogwoggler
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2565	Posted - 2014.02.16 14:32:00 - [19] - Quote What seperates the 20mil SP pilots from a 0SP pilot? Generally a mlt tank with 2 dmg mods on it Most tanks i do see are mlt tanks and for me thats fine, new tankers have to start somewhere even if they are powerful Even if they do raise the price and take away a slot and alter PG/CPU infantry will still call for a overall nerf on anything vehicle and espc on the HAVs They are already telling us what we can fit on our tanks and how many mods we should be able to fit on it and how we should use it and in what modes we can use them in so to stay it will stop with mlt i cant believe it Gunnys and maddy will also get nerfed, if mods get nerfed then LAV/DS will also suffer greatly if not be alot worse off Overall if it was upto infantry we wouldnt have vehicles, cod in space 514 edition Intelligence is OP
iTbagyou Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 213	Posted - 2014.02.16 15:11:00 - [20] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: What seperates the 20mil SP pilots from a 0SP pilot? Generally a mlt tank with 2 dmg mods on it Most tanks i do see are mlt tanks and for me thats fine, new tankers have to start somewhere even if they are powerful Even if they do raise the price and take away a slot and alter PG/CPU infantry will still call for a overall nerf on anything vehicle and espc on the HAVs They are already telling us what we can fit on our tanks and how many mods we should be able to fit on it and how we should use it and in what modes we can use them in so to stay it will stop with mlt i cant believe it Gunnys and maddy will also get nerfed, if mods get nerfed then LAV/DS will also suffer greatly if not be alot worse off Overall if it was upto infantry we wouldnt have vehicles, cod in space 514 edition anything that kills infantry is dubbed op and must be nerfed. Official spokesman of Lipton Tea.

Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 594	Posted - 2014.02.16 15:13:00 - [21] - Quote It's not even MLT tanks its blaster turret range. CCP your matchmaking sucks Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2205	Posted - 2014.02.16 16:45:00 - [22] - Quote Takahiro - think you're being a little overly dramatic there. Of course there is a small but vocal subset of infantry who would love for all tanks to be made of cardboard and cost 10million isk but the sensible players out there understand that vehicles have an important place in this game. I totally agree with you that those calling for module changes are especially out of line and having any kind of restrictions on what you can fit (outside of the normal CPU/PG limitations) runs counter to the creativity that is supposed to run throughout Dust514. Small adjustments are necessary but nothing is intrinsically wrong, apart from swarms and plasma cannon being pretty worthless as AV and even that would be fixed if MLT tanks (and actually all MLT vehicles) were made to be more fragile. Removing one slot from MLT HAVs would go a good ways to achieving this without making them useless. You could still easily fit a rail soma to take on blaster gunnies from a distance but you'd have to be much more sensible about your tactics because you would be vulnerable. Keeping all other stats the same (apart from reduced CPU/PG to go along with the lost slot) would mean that they would still be decent enough vehicles for newbies to use and may actually encourage more to skill into the STD tanks. And like I said, I don't really see that much wrong with STD tanks atm - when they don't have convoys of MLT protecting them too, I think it will be a much more balanced area of the game. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
steelRatt L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2014.02.16 17:09:00 - [23] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: What seperates the 20mil SP pilots from a 0SP pilot? Generally a mlt tank with 2 dmg mods on it Most tanks i do see are mlt tanks and for me thats fine, new tankers have to start somewhere even if they are powerful Even if they do raise the price and take away a slot and alter PG/CPU infantry will still call for a overall nerf on anything vehicle and espc on the HAVs They are already telling us what we can fit on our tanks and how many mods we should be able to fit on it and how we should use it and in what modes we can use them in so to stay it will stop with mlt i cant believe it Gunnys and maddy will also get nerfed, if mods get nerfed then LAV/DS will also suffer greatly if not be alot worse off Overall if it was upto infantry we wouldnt have vehicles, cod in space 514 edition 1 or 2 tanks not so bad but 7 tanks is wtf I was in a match yesterday and there was 4 rails in the redline killing RDVS and all the installations there was also 2 or 3 blasters driving around so who would you counter the rail tanks atleast the blasters could be attacked. I have also seen rails head glitching Erm turret glitching so how would you counter that. Of course you dont want tanks touched there having a blast L.O.T.I.S as had a few new players join how do you think this spamfest world of tanks clone makes them feel. Well they Al want to jump in to tanks coz there av sucks atm. the player base of the game is getting smaller but that's ok right? And no its not just tanks making that happen. Defeat dose not exist to them that are willing.


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