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Reiki Jubo
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
384
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Posted - 2014.02.13 00:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why does the scout have +3 while the heavy has +1? the Gal Heavy is supposed to be the most flexible armor suit in the game while the scout suits is the one suit in the that can benefit from a low rep speed. |
Nocturnal Soul
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
1970
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
I personally think they should not have an inherent armor rep "why you dip-****" you ask well simple it has more low slots than the Amarr heavy making it the better "ARMOR TANKER" with stacked complex plates. But it's just my opinion, you may now proceed to cleverly rip my post apart and poop on it :)
"But we have been blessed"
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4609
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
We don't need independent heavies. One hp is enough at the most two hp/s. |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
47
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scouts are supposed to play as Lone wolves, heavies are supposed to play with logis |
Awry Barux
New Eden Blades Of The Azure Zero-Day
526
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:We don't need independent heavies. One hp is enough at the most two hp/s.
This. The scout will never have a pocket logi- the heavy is practically designed around having one. Thus, the difference in intrinsic reps. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1895
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think all suits should have passive armor. Specially with the huge buff the Caldari are getting to shield repair.
Race H/M/L Caldari 0/0/0 Minmatar 1/1/2 Amarr 2/3/4 Gallente 3/5/7
Honestly that 3 HP/s is extremely insignificant. On a decently tanked Gal scout (2 basic plates to not break speed) without any efficacy bonus would take 100 seconds to recover fully. While a Caldari with a maxed tank would take at most 13 seconds. Without breaking tank, speed, or utility.
For the Federation!
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jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
48
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:I think all suits should have passive armor. Specially with the huge buff the Caldari are getting to shield repair.
Race H/M/L Caldari 0/0/0 Minmatar 1/1/2 Amarr 2/3/4 Gallente 3/5/7
Honestly that 3 HP/s is extremely insignificant. On a decently tanked Gal scout (2 basic plates to not break speed) without any efficacy bonus would take 100 seconds to recover fully. While a Caldari with a maxed tank would take at most 13 seconds. Without breaking tank, speed, or utility. Amor should never repair as fast as shields. That is why plates give so many hp. Do you want more armor regen? Sacrifice your brick tanking |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1895
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
jhon hartigan wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:I think all suits should have passive armor. Specially with the huge buff the Caldari are getting to shield repair.
Race H/M/L Caldari 0/0/0 Minmatar 1/1/2 Amarr 2/3/4 Gallente 3/5/7
Honestly that 3 HP/s is extremely insignificant. On a decently tanked Gal scout (2 basic plates to not break speed) without any efficacy bonus would take 100 seconds to recover fully. While a Caldari with a maxed tank would take at most 13 seconds. Without breaking tank, speed, or utility. Amor should never repair as fast as shields. That is why plates give so many hp. Do you want more armor regen? Sacrifice your brick tanking
7 =/= 50...
For the Federation!
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castba
Penguin's March
324
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Concerned at the number of gal heavies that will be on field after 1.8. More ranking ability than the Amarr and with an in-built 5hp/sec rep at max level coupled with a supposed nerf to damage mods. Why bother with the Amarr (unless RP or you use the Dren suit a lot)? |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1895
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
castba wrote:Concerned at the number of gal heavies that will be on field after 1.8. More ranking ability than the Amarr and with an in-built 5hp/sec rep at max level coupled with a supposed nerf to damage mods. Why bother with the Amarr (unless RP or you use the Dren suit a lot)?
How are they getting 5 hp at max level?
For the Federation!
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4609
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:castba wrote:Concerned at the number of gal heavies that will be on field after 1.8. More ranking ability than the Amarr and with an in-built 5hp/sec rep at max level coupled with a supposed nerf to damage mods. Why bother with the Amarr (unless RP or you use the Dren suit a lot)? How are they getting 5 hp at max level? he's just bitching for the sake of bitching. |
castba
Penguin's March
324
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:castba wrote:Concerned at the number of gal heavies that will be on field after 1.8. More ranking ability than the Amarr and with an in-built 5hp/sec rep at max level coupled with a supposed nerf to damage mods. Why bother with the Amarr (unless RP or you use the Dren suit a lot)? How are they getting 5 hp at max level? Isn't it 1hp per skill level? |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1895
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
castba wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:castba wrote:Concerned at the number of gal heavies that will be on field after 1.8. More ranking ability than the Amarr and with an in-built 5hp/sec rep at max level coupled with a supposed nerf to damage mods. Why bother with the Amarr (unless RP or you use the Dren suit a lot)? How are they getting 5 hp at max level? Isn't it 1hp per skill level? No
For the Federation!
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castba
Penguin's March
324
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:castba wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:castba wrote:Concerned at the number of gal heavies that will be on field after 1.8. More ranking ability than the Amarr and with an in-built 5hp/sec rep at max level coupled with a supposed nerf to damage mods. Why bother with the Amarr (unless RP or you use the Dren suit a lot)? How are they getting 5 hp at max level? Isn't it 1hp per skill level? No Ahh, well that changes my thought process. Thanks for clearing that up for me. |
Turtle Hermit Roshi
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
119
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:I personally think they should not have an inherent armor rep "why you dip-****" you ask well simple it has more low slots than the Amarr heavy making it the better "ARMOR TANKER" with stacked complex plates. But it's just my opinion, you may now proceed to cleverly rip my post apart and poop on it :)
and that is why i am getting a GAL heavy
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for, welcome to New Eden.
KAMEHAMEHA
professional Heavy for hire
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
653
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Don't forget it moves faster than amarr heavy.
Selling dust codes!
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4610
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Posted - 2014.02.13 02:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Don't forget it moves faster than amarr heavy. But Amarr have much better resistance to all weapons overall.
Trust me, effective hit points is always better than total hit points. |
Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
2931
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Posted - 2014.02.13 02:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
3hp/s natural regen does not an independent heavy make.
3hp/s natural regen DOES an accurate racial representation make.
Shield Recommendations
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Rusty Shallows
954
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Posted - 2014.02.13 02:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:jhon hartigan wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:I think all suits should have passive armor. Specially with the huge buff the Caldari are getting to shield repair.
Race H/M/L Caldari 0/0/0 Minmatar 1/1/2 Amarr 2/3/4 Gallente 3/5/7
Honestly that 3 HP/s is extremely insignificant. On a decently tanked Gal scout (2 basic plates to not break speed) without any efficacy bonus would take 100 seconds to recover fully. While a Caldari with a maxed tank would take at most 13 seconds. Without breaking tank, speed, or utility. Amor should never repair as fast as shields. That is why plates give so many hp. Do you want more armor regen? Sacrifice your brick tanking 7 =/= 50... One number is persistent and has no delay. Also the person getting the armor rep bonus is still enjoying a good shield rep while the reverse for the other guy is not likely true.
As for the original topic. The scout has a harder time getting a decent armor rep on his suit. On the Heavy Frame it's a very small bonus, on the squishy Scout more a necessity.
Here, have some candy and a Like. :-)
Forums > Game
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4610
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Posted - 2014.02.13 02:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:3hp/s natural regen does not an independent heavy make.
3hp/s natural regen DOES an accurate racial representation make. I'd normally agree with that but the Gallente Heavy does have a ton of low slots. I can only imagine that this is what CCP had in mind to make sure Colossus didn't have +21.25 hp/s. Of course your weapons will be basic but still. |
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
2931
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Posted - 2014.02.13 02:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote: One number is persistent and has no delay. Also the person getting the armor rep bonus is still enjoying a good shield rep while the reverse for the other guy is not likely true.
As for the original topic. The scout has a harder time getting a decent armor rep on his suit. On the Heavy Frame it's a very small bonus, on the squishy Scout more a necessity.
I'm just going to point out that armor tankers do not have a "good shield rep." The Gal/Amarr sentinels both have 15/s shield rep, even if you added that to 7, it still =/= 50. Not that I'm supporting his idea of 3/5/7 repair, but I just thought that was pertinent.
Personally I would just say that all Gallente suits should have the same progression. STD/ADV/PRO-->1/2/3.
Shield Recommendations
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Bojo The Mighty
L.O.T.I.S.
3129
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Posted - 2014.02.13 02:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Same reason they have the best shield regen/delay stats
Please deposit likes in Swiss Bank account. The Feds don't ensure beyond 3k.
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Rusty Shallows
958
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Posted - 2014.02.13 07:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote: One number is persistent and has no delay. Also the person getting the armor rep bonus is still enjoying a good shield rep while the reverse for the other guy is not likely true.
As for the original topic. The scout has a harder time getting a decent armor rep on his suit. On the Heavy Frame it's a very small bonus, on the squishy Scout more a necessity.
I'm just going to point out that armor tankers do not have a "good shield rep." The Gal/Amarr sentinels both have 15/s shield rep, even if you added that to 7, it still =/= 50. Not that I'm supporting his idea of 3/5/7 repair, but I just thought that was pertinent. Personally I would just say that all Gallente suits should have the same progression. STD/ADV/PRO-->1/2/3. I think we're dangerously close to kibitzing on the meaning of good. The point is that the value isn't bad. Having no or low armor however is. People running the Caldari Sentinel are going to have to make a hard choice since there will a strong incentive for a shield regulator. At that point even a freebie 1 h/p per second is significantly better.
"7 =/= 50," was a misleading statement. Someone had to speak up.
In principle I can agree with the bonus progression part. Light & Heavy Frames don't handle the tier progression as well as Medium Frames. The relative value of gaining module slots has more impact than inherent suit values (more base hit-points, speed, etc). Militia & Standard tiers looking balanced, Advanced and Prototype not so much.
Here, have some candy and a Like. :-)
Forums > Game
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NK Scout
Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State
340
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Posted - 2014.02.13 07:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:I personally think they should not have an inherent armor rep "why you dip-****" you ask well simple it has more low slots than the Amarr heavy making it the better "ARMOR TANKER" with stacked complex plates. But it's just my opinion, you may now proceed to cleverly rip my post apart and poop on it :) An enhanced plate is all thats needed to far surpass the amarr
2 exiles assault rifles,
Skinweave caldari frame,
Staff recruiter mlt frame,
Templar set
Caldari Master Race
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Yan Darn
DUST University Ivy League
206
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Posted - 2014.02.13 07:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Same reason they have the best shield regen/delay stats
^
Scouts are lowest buffer, highest regen.
It makes sense to give the scout from the faction known for armour regen, some natural armour repair. Since a gal suit always has the lowest shields and lowest regen delay/speed and Lowest high slots - they' d never benefit from shield mods and would be forced to expend a slot to support the tanking style that is opposite to a scouts natural tanking style.
Heavy tank regen was always designed to be supported by logis - to justify the highest buffer (EHP will be crazy with new resists) which is why I guess people are worried about cal heavies (not me though) and their relatively independent tank regen.
If that made sense...
You probably don't know me. But next time you get gunned down or exploded by a Valor scout...check the name.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2941
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Posted - 2014.02.13 07:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:jhon hartigan wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:I think all suits should have passive armor. Specially with the huge buff the Caldari are getting to shield repair.
Race H/M/L Caldari 0/0/0 Minmatar 1/1/2 Amarr 2/3/4 Gallente 3/5/7
Honestly that 3 HP/s is extremely insignificant. On a decently tanked Gal scout (2 basic plates to not break speed) without any efficacy bonus would take 100 seconds to recover fully. While a Caldari with a maxed tank would take at most 13 seconds. Without breaking tank, speed, or utility. Amor should never repair as fast as shields. That is why plates give so many hp. Do you want more armor regen? Sacrifice your brick tanking 7 =/= 50...
But stack on two complex reppers and two complex Plates: ~20 hp/s CONSTANT armor rep with around 560 armor. Combine with your 223 buffer shield, and you have one tough Gal Assault.
Comparison: Cal Assault with 553 shields and 243 armor vs. 223 Shield and 560 armor Gal Assault.
Both take 600 damage.
Gal assault loses all of its shields, and only has 183 armor left. Armor repairs immediately and regens fully in 19s. Shield begin rep in 10.7s, and fully heal in 9s. In 19.7s, the Gal assault has fully healed itself from 600 damage
Cal Assault loses all of its shields, and has 196 armor left. Armor doesn't repair at all, so it waits for shields. It is running dual regulators (complex) but has no extra regen due to having to run 4x extenders to hit the same eHP. Regen starts after 9.27s and shields will fully rep in 14 seconds afterwards. In 23.27s the Cal assault will have healed only 553 damage. The last 47 health cannot be repaired without an external source.
This is the problem when you have Armor rep that fast. Armor tank does regen better, and can still run damage mods in its high slots.
EDIT: Just noticed that this was talking about scouts. Well, my data is still relevant for assaults as well.
Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face.
Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
6459
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Posted - 2014.02.13 08:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:jhon hartigan wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:I think all suits should have passive armor. Specially with the huge buff the Caldari are getting to shield repair.
Race H/M/L Caldari 0/0/0 Minmatar 1/1/2 Amarr 2/3/4 Gallente 3/5/7
Honestly that 3 HP/s is extremely insignificant. On a decently tanked Gal scout (2 basic plates to not break speed) without any efficacy bonus would take 100 seconds to recover fully. While a Caldari with a maxed tank would take at most 13 seconds. Without breaking tank, speed, or utility. Amor should never repair as fast as shields. That is why plates give so many hp. Do you want more armor regen? Sacrifice your brick tanking 7 =/= 50... But stack on two complex reppers and two complex Plates: ~20 hp/s CONSTANT armor rep with around 560 armor. Combine with your 223 buffer shield, and you have one tough Gal Assault. Comparison: Cal Assault with 553 shields and 243 armor vs. 223 Shield and 560 armor Gal Assault. Both take 600 damage. Gal assault loses all of its shields, and only has 183 armor left. Armor repairs immediately and regens fully in 19s. Shield begin rep in 10.7s, and fully heal in 9s. In 19.7s, the Gal assault has fully healed itself from 600 damageCal Assault loses all of its shields, and has 196 armor left. Armor doesn't repair at all, so it waits for shields. It is running dual regulators (complex) but has no extra regen due to having to run 4x extenders to hit the same eHP. Regen starts after 9.27s and shields will fully rep in 14 seconds afterwards. In 23.27s the Cal assault will have healed only 553 damage. The last 47 health cannot be repaired without an external source.This is the problem when you have Armor rep that fast. Armor tank does regen better, and can still run damage mods in its high slots. EDIT: Just noticed that this was talking about scouts. Well, my data is still relevant for assaults as well. Complex extenders add 7% to the DEPLETED recharge delay. So first: A. Two regulators do more than cover 4x complex extenders B. Try that same test without losing all the shields.
And finally, Caldari are getting a massive boost in recharge speed, AND the delays are getting much shorter. So your comparison is.. pretty damn bad.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4622
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Posted - 2014.02.13 08:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cadari shield tankers bitching again. Move along, nothing special. |
Asha Starwind
VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
359
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Posted - 2014.02.13 08:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:I personally think they should not have an inherent armor rep "why you dip-****" you ask well simple it has more low slots than the Amarr heavy making it the better "ARMOR TANKER" with stacked complex plates. But it's just my opinion, you may now proceed to cleverly rip my post apart and poop on it :)
Will do Amarr Heavy (max skills, 2 comp AP, 1 comp rep)
( 135 * 2 * 1.1 ) + ( 600 * 1.25 ) = 1047 armor
Gal Heavy (same skills, 4 comp AP)
( 135 * 4 * 1.1 ) + ( 435 * 1.25 ) = 1250.25armor
For a 203.25 difference in armor
Amarr heavy enjoys a 5% advantage vs projectile weapons CR/HMG
Gal Heavy enjoys a 10% advantage vs rail weapons RR/FG(LAWL)
Movement speed
Amarr 3.65m/s * ( 1 - ( 0.06 * 2 ) ) = 3.21m/s Gal 3.85m/s * ( 1 - ( 0.06 * 4 ) ) = 2.92m/s <--------------Slooooowwww
This is all before you even get to the fact that the amarr gets an extra high to stack more damage or shields that will have a 19% resistance vs rail weapons.
I wouldn't plate a Gal Heavy would go a least one complex plate and 3 reps or 3 reps and a kin cat for the lolz.
32db Mad Bomber.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2942
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Posted - 2014.02.13 08:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:jhon hartigan wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:I think all suits should have passive armor. Specially with the huge buff the Caldari are getting to shield repair.
Race H/M/L Caldari 0/0/0 Minmatar 1/1/2 Amarr 2/3/4 Gallente 3/5/7
Honestly that 3 HP/s is extremely insignificant. On a decently tanked Gal scout (2 basic plates to not break speed) without any efficacy bonus would take 100 seconds to recover fully. While a Caldari with a maxed tank would take at most 13 seconds. Without breaking tank, speed, or utility. Amor should never repair as fast as shields. That is why plates give so many hp. Do you want more armor regen? Sacrifice your brick tanking 7 =/= 50... But stack on two complex reppers and two complex Plates: ~20 hp/s CONSTANT armor rep with around 560 armor. Combine with your 223 buffer shield, and you have one tough Gal Assault. Comparison: Cal Assault with 553 shields and 243 armor vs. 223 Shield and 560 armor Gal Assault. Both take 600 damage. Gal assault loses all of its shields, and only has 183 armor left. Armor repairs immediately and regens fully in 19s. Shield begin rep in 10.7s, and fully heal in 9s. In 19.7s, the Gal assault has fully healed itself from 600 damageCal Assault loses all of its shields, and has 196 armor left. Armor doesn't repair at all, so it waits for shields. It is running dual regulators (complex) but has no extra regen due to having to run 4x extenders to hit the same eHP. Regen starts after 9.27s and shields will fully rep in 14 seconds afterwards. In 23.27s the Cal assault will have healed only 553 damage. The last 47 health cannot be repaired without an external source.This is the problem when you have Armor rep that fast. Armor tank does regen better, and can still run damage mods in its high slots. EDIT: Just noticed that this was talking about scouts. Well, my data is still relevant for assaults as well. Complex extenders add 7% to the DEPLETED recharge delay. So first: A. Two regulators do more than cover 4x complex extenders B. Try that same test without losing all the shields. And finally, Caldari are getting a massive boost in recharge speed, AND the delays are getting much shorter. So your comparison is.. pretty damn bad.
I used a rep rate of 40 hp/s on the shields, and my fitting tool did the calculations for shield recharge time (including the penalties. For those who are curious, running 4x shields puts your depleted time at 9.63s. Running two complex regulators only brings down the time to 9.27 due to how it's calculated)
I see no problems with my data.
As for without losing all of the shields: Yes, shield tanks are more viable when their shields aren't broken.
Example: Both Take 400 Damage.
Gal Assault is left with 383 armor. Reps armor in 9s. Shields fully regen in ~20s.
Cal Assault is left with 153 shields. Shield rep begins in ~2.3s, and reps 40 a second. Fully healed in 12.3 seconds.
This is a delta of 7.7s between the two suits. However, in the 12.3s it takes to rep 400 damage, the Gal Assault has repped 286 eHP (40 shields, and 246 armor).
So with shields unbroken, the Cal assault reps 1.63x faster than the Gal Assault With shields broken, the Gal Assault reps 1.2x faster than the Cal Assault
This is a factor of 0.4x speed on either side, and the better suit overall is still the Gal Assault. It can benefit from rep hives and Rep tools to speed up rep time even faster, and can even run damage mods in it's high slots (or more shields).
Cal Assault has all of it's slots occupied, and cannot rep it's shields through equipment.
Sorry Cat Merc, but I still gotta say that with the above stats, the Gal Assault gets a clear regen advantage.
EDIT: Just noticed that little snippet about Regen times getting changed. Well, I can't predict the future. Gotta go off what I got. If they change Shield Depleted times for the Cal Assault, it will be much more viable.
Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face.
Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
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