DUST Search - Quick solution for Uplink spam

Cross Atu wrote:

AmlSeb wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

I've been asking this in other threads related to the subject, and will ask again here.

What specifically makes 'uplink spam' a problem in your eyes? What are the implications of it that have a negative effect on game play and what would the battlefield look like in your ideal vision?

More constructive feedback can be given, as well as more meaningful responses to your OP, when the relevant context of answers to the above has been provided.

Cheers,
Cross

Too much Equipment 1) gets the server laggy
2) prevents a view from the tactical map. Seriously, if you can-¦t see the enemy anymore because there are uplinks evrywhere there must be something wrong.

Thank you for the reply and the specifics Smile

I will move forward by addressing each one.

1) Equipment does nothing to lag the server this is a common misconception. What it is causing is an issue with the ram/virtual memory within the client/PS3 itself. The issue being a user side performance problem can be addressed in a couple of ways. First the user (us) can upgrade the hardware, an SSD hard drive will completely solve the lag issues related to deployed equipment (at least neither I nor any of the players I've spoken with have had lag related to deployed equipment once we installed an SSD). That solution however is not ideal since it requires players to spend money above and beyond the game and console. The second, and I think better, solution is for CCP to rework the glow and sound effects that seem to be at the hart of the lag issue. Fields of proxy mines for example don't seem to cause lag even among players with a stock PS3 so clearly deployed equipment isn't innately a problem, we just need a rework of the elements that cause uplinks and hives to create lag on some consoles.

2) The mini map needs improvements. The recent(ish) addition of zoom has helped but it's not a full solution. The mini map still lacks cardinal directions, elevation listing, distance notations, it fails to color code squad vs team equipment (and sometimes vehicles), it lacks the ability to assign any custom colors for tactical use, and the list goes on. I agree with you that the current effect mass equipment deployment has on the mini map is undesirable, however I think the optimal fix is an overall improvement to the mini map rather than a reduction in the usability of equipment.

Thank you again for your reply, I want to reiterate that I agree both the issues you've listed should indeed be addressed, however I believe they both deserve their own fixes directly to the problem rather than a blanket approach which would also reduce the tactical value of equipment.

Cheers,
Cross

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AmlSeb The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 28	Posted - 2014.02.13 00:26:00 - [1] - Quote The first uplink creates a spawn area that-¦s 10 meter in diameter with the uplink in the centre. players who choose this will spawn a few hundred meters above this area and drop in-> solution for uplink camping as well Every other uplink that is placed within 10 to that first one thereafter will give its energy for its spawns to the first one and thus keep that spawn point alive for a longer time. The uplink itself dissipates then The spawn time modificator is always the largest one of the uplinks in the area. Example: One uplink has -50% spawn time modificator and 20 spawns and all other have -0% so the spawn point will have a -50% spawn time modificator until the 20 spawns are used. After that the modificator is -0% Everybody earns the WP for his uplink. Example: One uplink has 20 spawns so whoever puts it there gets his wp for the next 20 spawns. Cheers, Aml
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 959	Posted - 2014.02.13 00:36:00 - [2] - Quote From a programming standpoint that is not a simple solution. This is a networked many client to one server system. A simple programming solution is to reduce the resource requirement of the uplinks and other equipment. The many sound sources, the animated overlay for each item could be dramatically reduced and one might hope that it would reduce the load on the system. I doubt it personally as recently I have experienced several problems normally associated with equipment spam while there was no equipment being spammed. Which indicates a more fundamental problem versus overeager Mercs desperate to get WP to increase they SP payout. And so it goes.
AmlSeb The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 28	Posted - 2014.02.13 00:41:00 - [3] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: From a programming standpoint that is not a simple solution. This is a networked many client to one server system. A simple programming solution is to reduce the resource requirement of the uplinks and other equipment. The many sound sources, the animated overlay for each item could be dramatically reduced and one might hope that it would reduce the load on the system. I doubt it personally as recently I have experienced several problems normally associated with equipment spam while there was no equipment being spammed. Which indicates a more fundamental problem versus overeager Mercs desperate to get WP to increase they SP payout. Programming might indeed be hard but for the server it-¦d be ways easier. it has to handle one Spawnpoint and every other deployed uplink would be nothing more than some parameters that are being changed. it could be done for Nano Hives as well.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1922	Posted - 2014.02.13 03:58:00 - [4] - Quote I've been asking this in other threads related to the subject, and will ask again here. What specifically makes 'uplink spam' a problem in your eyes? What are the implications of it that have a negative effect on game play and what would the battlefield look like your ideal vision? More constructive feedback can be given, as well as more meaningful responses to your OP, when the relevant context of answers to the above has been provided. Cheers, Cross SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
AmlSeb The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 28	Posted - 2014.02.13 06:37:00 - [5] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I've been asking this in other threads related to the subject, and will ask again here. What specifically makes 'uplink spam' a problem in your eyes? What are the implications of it that have a negative effect on game play and what would the battlefield look like in your ideal vision? More constructive feedback can be given, as well as more meaningful responses to your OP, when the relevant context of answers to the above has been provided. Cheers, Cross Too much Equipment 1) gets the server laggy 2) prevents a view from the tactical map. Seriously, if you can-¦t see the enemy anymore because there are uplinks evrywhere there must be something wrong.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1923	Posted - 2014.02.13 07:36:00 - [6] - Quote AmlSeb wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've been asking this in other threads related to the subject, and will ask again here. What specifically makes 'uplink spam' a problem in your eyes? What are the implications of it that have a negative effect on game play and what would the battlefield look like in your ideal vision? More constructive feedback can be given, as well as more meaningful responses to your OP, when the relevant context of answers to the above has been provided. Cheers, Cross Too much Equipment 1) gets the server laggy 2) prevents a view from the tactical map. Seriously, if you can-¦t see the enemy anymore because there are uplinks evrywhere there must be something wrong. Thank you for the reply and the specifics I will move forward by addressing each one. 1) Equipment does nothing to lag the server this is a common misconception. What it is causing is an issue with the ram/virtual memory within the client/PS3 itself. The issue being a user side performance problem can be addressed in a couple of ways. First the user (us) can upgrade the hardware, an SSD hard drive will completely solve the lag issues related to deployed equipment (at least neither I nor any of the players I've spoken with have had lag related to deployed equipment once we installed an SSD). That solution however is not ideal since it requires players to spend money above and beyond the game and console. The second, and I think better, solution is for CCP to rework the glow and sound effects that seem to be at the hart of the lag issue. Fields of proxy mines for example don't seem to cause lag even among players with a stock PS3 so clearly deployed equipment isn't innately a problem, we just need a rework of the elements that cause uplinks and hives to create lag on some consoles. 2) The mini map needs improvements. The recent(ish) addition of zoom has helped but it's not a full solution. The mini map still lacks cardinal directions, elevation listing, distance notations, it fails to color code squad vs team equipment (and sometimes vehicles), it lacks the ability to assign any custom colors for tactical use, and the list goes on. I agree with you that the current effect mass equipment deployment has on the mini map is undesirable, however I think the optimal fix is an overall improvement to the mini map rather than a reduction in the usability of equipment. Thank you again for your reply, I want to reiterate that I agree both the issues you've listed should indeed be addressed, however I believe they both deserve their own fixes directly to the problem rather than a blanket approach which would also reduce the tactical value of equipment. Cheers, Cross SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
SGTFunyoun THEFIRST Arachnea Phoenix Battalion 29	Posted - 2014.02.13 07:46:00 - [7] - Quote Ok, idea... make uplinks, nanohives, and those repper/nanohives that cost an arm and a leg now... be resupplied ONLY from available finite resources you own (Like having to purchase a certain number of them; think of them as a box of ammunition that can quickly manufacture any ammo TYPE you want but from available onboard resources aka howmany nanites it has)... ... then make it so that you cannot place one of these devices within 0.5 meters of each other as the fields overlapping would cause explosive interference. In other words, the little magic blue field that pops up around these things... CANNOT TOUCH the little magic blue field of another one of these devices. Spamming of these devices is mitigated. Not really solved, as I don't really see much of a problem but mitigated.
AmlSeb The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 30	Posted - 2014.02.13 07:55:00 - [8] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: AmlSeb wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've been asking this in other threads related to the subject, and will ask again here. What specifically makes 'uplink spam' a problem in your eyes? What are the implications of it that have a negative effect on game play and what would the battlefield look like in your ideal vision? More constructive feedback can be given, as well as more meaningful responses to your OP, when the relevant context of answers to the above has been provided. Cheers, Cross Too much Equipment 1) gets the server laggy 2) prevents a view from the tactical map. Seriously, if you can-¦t see the enemy anymore because there are uplinks evrywhere there must be something wrong. Thank you for the reply and the specifics I will move forward by addressing each one. 1) Equipment does nothing to lag the server this is a common misconception. What it is causing is an issue with the ram/virtual memory within the client/PS3 itself. The issue being a user side performance problem can be addressed in a couple of ways. First the user (us) can upgrade the hardware, an SSD hard drive will completely solve the lag issues related to deployed equipment (at least neither I nor any of the players I've spoken with have had lag related to deployed equipment once we installed an SSD). That solution however is not ideal since it requires players to spend money above and beyond the game and console. The second, and I think better, solution is for CCP to rework the glow and sound effects that seem to be at the hart of the lag issue. Fields of proxy mines for example don't seem to cause lag even among players with a stock PS3 so clearly deployed equipment isn't innately a problem, we just need a rework of the elements that cause uplinks and hives to create lag on some consoles. 2) The mini map needs improvements. The recent(ish) addition of zoom has helped but it's not a full solution. The mini map still lacks cardinal directions, elevation listing, distance notations, it fails to color code squad vs team equipment (and sometimes vehicles), it lacks the ability to assign any custom colors for tactical use, and the list goes on. I agree with you that the current effect mass equipment deployment has on the mini map is undesirable, however I think the optimal fix is an overall improvement to the mini map rather than a reduction in the usability of equipment. Thank you again for your reply, I want to reiterate that I agree both the issues you've listed should indeed be addressed, however I believe they both deserve their own fixes directly to the problem rather than a blanket approach which would also reduce the tactical value of equipment. Cheers, Cross Yeah, I know. i just woke up and no coffee yet so sham on me for that mistake. But honestly: My idea would turn like 20 processes the PS3 has to handle into one process with variable parameters. It would solve a lot. Remotes don-¦t have the problem I think because there are less processes ongoing. Uplinks and Hives are used over time, while the remotes only need processing while deploying and upon detonation/destruction
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 663	Posted - 2014.02.13 11:10:00 - [9] - Quote most agree the spam hurts the game. kagehoshi suggested spawning from cloaked RDVs long ago and many support this, it combats spawn camping. but even more important is the drop uplink. the mechanic allowing mercs to spawn in on a fixed area is too strong and needs to be tuned. we recommend a max of 4 uplinks active per team [lore can address how each MCC has limited wormhole bandwidth] this has precedent. there are a limited amount of vehicles active and its not nearly as dominating a mechanic. lastly separate uplinks instead by amount of spawns & spawn time. no merc should be able to have more than 1 active. our battery of questions for CPM1 candidates: http://tinyurl.com/mjvwe7f
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 327	Posted - 2014.02.13 13:32:00 - [10] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I've been asking this in other threads related to the subject, and will ask again here. What specifically makes 'uplink spam' a problem in your eyes? What are the implications of it that have a negative effect on game play and what would the battlefield look like in your ideal vision? More constructive feedback can be given, as well as more meaningful responses to your OP, when the relevant context of answers to the above has been provided. Cheers, Cross The risk/reward is a little out as far as what is required to make it happen compared to what you get. All you have to do is spawn in your OP logi suit and dump some links down before going to town on the redberries. Then, assuming you are spamming successfully you have dominance over that area. This can be countered but it is quite difficult to clear all of the links when the area is laced with them and reds keep spawning on them and replacing them. The best solution I can think of right now is to severely reduce the number of spawns that each uplink can handle. 5ish probably? Maybe a little more for special variant links that sacrifice something like spawn time. That way maintaining the links actually takes effort. Reducing the amount carried may help too. Max uplinks per person is also good. So no more than say 3 uplinks of any type for person. Have you 4th link replace your first. Not allowing equipment within a certain proximity also has potential but requires more dev time and it needs some UI feedback so you know what's going on. Not to mention it doesn't fix all of the issues such as outposts laced with dozens of uplinks. I don't like restricting the team to X uplinks because then a single guy (or squad) could snatch up all the link slots and there'd be nothing his teamates could do about it. Plus it adds annoying potential for trolling - drop X links in the MCC at the start of the match....

Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2836	Posted - 2014.02.13 14:11:00 - [11] - Quote People seem to have one of two issues with equipment: 1) they attribute lag to deployed equipment 2) they dislike the intended effect of the equipment The first issue is a programming one and in fact as already been improved via a hot fix a few weeks ago. There is no need to alter game mechanics to solve a problem which can be addressed by fixing the code. The second is a matter of personal opinion. Supply lines have always been the life blood of an army. Uplinks and nanohives are the reinforcement and resupply lines of DUST. Slaying is fun, but logistics is crucial to victory. There is a segment of the player population that yearns for a simpler game where your gun game is the only thing that matters. If you can aim well you can take any objective, no matter the odds. This group considers a strong reinforcement line "unfair" because it can counter their assault if their side lacks a strong reinforcement line of its own. They go down and have to hike back in from far away which costs them the objective. The solution is not to dumb down the game by crippling equipment and eliminating the role logistics plays in victory. That would turn DUST into another mindless shooter where DPS reigns supreme and a gun is all you need to win. It reduces DUST rather than enhances it. Taken to the extreme we end up with pure infantry TDM with one version of he AR. Yes it lets your gun game shine, but it's boring as hell. DUST is team oriented game, not a loner shooter. Lay down your own reinforcement line before you rush in to take an objective. You can have a wonderfully intense battle when both reinforcement lines are near each other. What's boing is when everyone has to spawn far away and trickle into the fight just to get mowed down. Cripple uplinks and that's what you will get, a slow boring fight.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 965	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:40:00 - [12] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I've been asking this in other threads related to the subject, and will ask again here. What specifically makes 'uplink spam' a problem in your eyes? What are the implications of it that have a negative effect on game play and what would the battlefield look like in your ideal vision? More constructive feedback can be given, as well as more meaningful responses to your OP, when the relevant context of answers to the above has been provided. Cheers, Cross In my eyes, nothing. Noisy and too bright but that is all. I have tested spamming uplinks and hives and found absolutely no problems in my game. No log, skipping or freezes. Aeon Amaldi asked for help testing the spam and he got dc'd every test. But I didn't nor did two of the other Logis helping spam. We even ran back and forth shooting so the hives would run out, all while the team was spawning in on our little farm. I would suspect that there are network issues that are going to be difficult to find. However, I suspect that there is a fundamental problem that CCP/Shanghai is unable to debug. They are grasping at straws trying to find something to pin the blame on. Uplinks and Hives are the available targets, soon to get the Nerf Hammer in 1.8 And so it goes.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 965	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:54:00 - [13] - Quote AmlSeb wrote: Programming might indeed be hard but for the server it-¦d be ways easier. it has to handle one Spawnpoint and every other deployed uplink would be nothing more than some parameters that are being changed. it could be done for Nano Hives as well. Have you coded multiple client to one server network solutions? They don't fall easily off the truck. The potential for dead lock is high, the method they have is based on EVE Online* and is (IMO) ill suited for the task. Nothing more than some parameters being changed. Yeah, I bet that's the solution. /snark A faster, simpler solution is to reduce the load of the suspected problems (uplinks and hives). Drop their high level of animation and audio load. Much of the PC and FW problems appear to be audio related, a one week test would add some data that CCP is unable to acquire in their normal QA. If one should even call it QA as they either play with us or on their non-loaded systems, resulting in false positives (meaning they cannot reproduce the problem in their test environment). If the lighter load produces no better results then doing the extra coding to handle your special case solution would not be needed. Know the problem before throwing code at it is a better tactic. * EVE Online has ping times ~200ms. For a point and click spreadsheet in space that is fine. However for a FPS it is tragically slow. And so it goes.
X7 lion Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 119	Posted - 2014.02.15 18:58:00 - [14] - Quote the simple solution is to remove there effects and replace the with some thing ALOT simpler and less taxing when spammed I am death incarnate, you will not see me or hear me. You shall only feel the strike of my blade.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 969	Posted - 2014.02.16 11:26:00 - [15] - Quote AmlSeb wrote: Too much Equipment 1) gets the server laggy 2) prevents a view from the tactical map. Seriously, if you can-¦t see the enemy anymore because there are uplinks everywhere there must be something wrong. There is no actual data that confirms #1, in fact the tests I did showed that uplink and hive farms made no difference. Some got dc'd though, so it is most likely network related not server related. #2 is esthetics and really who cares about being too pretty in space? The tactical map is a hash up and is not nearly as useful as it used to be. Most of the detail is gone and one is lucky if they can find their own squad much less any red berries. Just imagining CCP/Shanghai trying to resolve a network problem is entertaining in itself. For EVE Online the solution was to slow the server up by 90%. And they can still get lag in the area of minutes even then. Imagine if you will - pull trigger - wait two minutes for one round to leave the gun. It will just get worse from there. Well, I do but mostly it is because of the distracting texture pop-in from all the fiddly work the blasted artists have been keeping themselves overly busy with. And so it goes.


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