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jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
1
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Posted - 2014.02.08 16:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Even if You are a minlogi with the new bonus. It is absolutely UP.
I dont want to be able to keep everyone alive against an entire team but I d Like to be atleast useful.
If You ask yourself: should I Repair him or shoot I use My rifle and shoot? You should always shoot!
Math:
AR Duvolle dps with V prof: 537.
With 1 dmg mode: 591
Armour repaired by a core focused Repair tool (the one that Repair more) : 125, if You are a mk0 logi= 156
So you are giving up to 537 dmg per second (or 591) to heal only 156 per second.
And this is only the start: if You decide to Repair you re not only giving up the damage: you cant defend yourself, you have to be Really near to your mate (11 m) you need to have a Line of sight, you are using 45 cpu and 7 pg (already modified by the logi bonus) that You could use better.
So why should I use a Repair tool instead of leaving that slot empty and increase My possibilities to Kill (with more dmg or more hp)
Even in The Best possible fight it isnt Worth it:
Ex: me minmatar logi repairing an Amarr sentinel (I know this isnt going to happen :)). Someone start shooting to the heavy with a combat assault rifle.
This is the Best fight for the repairer because the Amarr has a resistance against the combat.
So the combat has a dps of: 533(with prof V) 586 with just one dmg mode. - 15 % of heavy resistance it is: 498 dmg per second.
I m repairing him with a focused Repair tool at a rate of 156 hp/s.
So the heavy is receiving 342 dmg per second. I can guess he will die in 3/4 seconds.
I know that 4 seconds are a lot of time is a FPS but remember that this is the Best fight we can Face. This is the moment in wich the repairer does its best.
And I havent Even thought about 2 or more people shooting to us, in this case the repairer is Even more useless.
You should Really buff the Repair tool or none is going to use it except to farm WP.
P S I m italian, I m Sorry for My bad English. |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
2
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Posted - 2014.02.08 16:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The repair tool is suppose to be used to heal people, not provide minimal immunity.
So the minmatar bonus is completely useless, isnt it? What is the difference between healing Someone at 90 and at 110 when you are near him and completely safe? |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
2
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Posted - 2014.02.08 17:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:It's not about keeping the heavy functionally immune to weapons fire, because that'd be unbalanced, right? If I shoot at the heavy, who already has double my ehp if I'm not sitting in a fat suit too, and he takes zero hp loss because you're sitting behind him and repping him back to full health quicker than I can hurt him, that is going to cause serious game balance issues very quickly.
The strength in the repair tool surely lies in its ability to take a very nearly dead heavy back to full health in those few moments between intense firefights that would force other suits without your support to back off and rep up with much less efficient modules?
I'm not arguing against your math, it seems pretty spot on, just how your applying it to the logi role.
You can be right but I m asking myself: why should I use a Repair tool instead of My weapon in a firefight. I guess your answer is "you shouldnt" so to be an effettive logi I better stack dmg modes and fire.
Slayer logi > LogiBro, is this fine? |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
2
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Posted - 2014.02.08 17:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:The repair tool isn't like the medgun in Team Fortress 2.
The idea is that you can heal players outside of battle, or use cover to your advantage to keep someone alive while they're fighting.
Also, who ever takes ALL of the bulets from a weapon? Unless you're being a noob and standing perfectly still, the dispersion, movement, and player aim all is taken into account. People never estimate any sort of "error" margins into their math and I hate it.
Just because my core focused can't heal faster than a weapon can "potentially" do damage, doesn't mean they can't still go 60/2 (i.e. hardly dying) with me getting over 5k wp.
The minmatar bonus actually makes std and adv repair tools really good, and proto even better (besides core focused nerf). As I am the player that once score over 7000 wp in a single match with a repair tool, I can say that the repair tools are FINE, and that the nerfs are understandable.
You are right, I also did some math considering the fact that none hit every shot but I didnt wanted to write too much.
So the fact is: none thing you should use it between a battle, you should only use it after a battle to let ur mates be ready for the Next one. So in the battle it is stupid to use it instead of your weapon.
In My opinion you should be awarded with more efficiency for this effort you r doing to play with your mates and doing team play. |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
2
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Posted - 2014.02.08 17:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Have you accounted for approximately 55% accuracy.
By the time you account for poor aim, dispersion, etc, you usally get 55% accuracy, (from my experience)
Even with 55% of accuracy you d better be shooting unless you And Your mate can go in and out covers at your wish |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
2
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Posted - 2014.02.08 17:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
So if You all think it should only be used out of fight the new minlogi bonus is almost useless. The difference between 88 and 110 hp/s if You are out of fight is useless and also the range. |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
2
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Posted - 2014.02.08 17:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Denak Kalamari wrote:jhon hartigan wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:The repair tool isn't like the medgun in Team Fortress 2.
The idea is that you can heal players outside of battle, or use cover to your advantage to keep someone alive while they're fighting.
Also, who ever takes ALL of the bulets from a weapon? Unless you're being a noob and standing perfectly still, the dispersion, movement, and player aim all is taken into account. People never estimate any sort of "error" margins into their math and I hate it.
Just because my core focused can't heal faster than a weapon can "potentially" do damage, doesn't mean they can't still go 60/2 (i.e. hardly dying) with me getting over 5k wp.
The minmatar bonus actually makes std and adv repair tools really good, and proto even better (besides core focused nerf). As I am the player that once score over 7000 wp in a single match with a repair tool, I can say that the repair tools are FINE, and that the nerfs are understandable. You are right, I also did some math considering the fact that none hit every shot but I didnt wanted to write too much. So the fact is: none thing you should use it between a battle, you should only use it after a battle to let ur mates be ready for the Next one. So in the battle it is stupid to use it instead of your weapon. In My opinion you should be awarded with more efficiency for this effort you r doing to play with your mates and doing team play. The problem here is the fact that extra gunfire isn't always the be all end all solution to every single situation on the battlefield. I'll provide you a few examples. In scenario one, you are a logistics with a repair tool and an assault rifle, teaming up with a heavy using an HMG. You suddenly end up fighting against four enemies with your heavy teammate. You whip out your assault rifle and begin shooting at the enemies with your heavy teammate. Despite your best attempts, you get overwhelmed and you die, leaving your heavy buddy without support, who dies soon after you. Scenario two is quite similar, but instead of whipping out your assault rifle, you whip out your repair tool and begin repairing the heavy while he starts ripping away at the enemies. You dodge the gunfire the best you can, while your heavy keeps eliminating the enemies one by one while you were keeping his armor topped up. You both live through the scenario, you restock both your ammunition with nanohives and you live to fight another battle. As others have said already, the repair tool bonus allows you to repair people faster and from farther ranges, letting them get back to battle much faster which would be a crucial factor in winning or losing a game. It is also useful for keeping people alive while in a firefight, but not to the extent where they are immune to gunfire completely.
In a 4v2 if they all shoot to your heavy and Even if they only Land half the shots and Even if he has the right resistance:
They are all with a combat with V prof and 1 dmg mod - 15% resistance of your amar heavy. They Deal 500 dmg per second /2 because they Land half the shoots it is 300,they are four so 1200 dmg - 156 you re healing it is 1044dmg per second. I dont think you are going to survive :)
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jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
9
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Posted - 2014.02.08 19:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
ANON Cerberus wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The repair tool is suppose to be used to heal people, not provide minimal immunity. The logistics class in eve actually tanks a lot of repair points to a friendly target. Like the op says, it will take your dps out of the fight so it has to somewhat compensate. All this does is promote a slayer logi. Why actively repair when you can just shoot and patch up after an engagement. The real question is - Is this "DUST 514 set in the EVE universe" or not? Remote repair in eve is a huge thing. It is its own legitimate class. I will be honest, I would give up my main weapons and only have a side arm, or even have no weapons at all, if it meant I got to really be an effective healer / logistics like we have in eve. Weapon-less 99% of the time but a powerful force multiplier.
Thank you. I havent played Eve but I know there are ships that tanks other ships, that is What how the repairer tool should work. The problem is maybe that the logi is not a dedicated healer but he also has a quite good offensive Power. Maybe they could let you increase your healing Power if You do things Like giving up you Light weapon for a sidearm or creating some modules that increase the efficacy of the repairer |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
11
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Posted - 2014.02.08 19:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Johnny Guilt wrote:He forgot to take into account the heavies new resistances,so there's that and the rep tool bonues from minlogi give 156/s reps.
I took it into account, Read the OP. And btw you r not always going to repair an heavy being shooted by the weapon he resists to |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
12
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Posted - 2014.02.08 20:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Your mindset represents everything thats wrong with the player base
We are trying to have a serious discussion here so, please, if You d Like to contribute you are welcome. If not you can GTFO. Thank you. |
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jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
15
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Posted - 2014.02.09 01:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
So I see that almost all of you see it as a after-battle-recharger. It looks a bit useless this Way. Look at the other equipments :
Amarr have uplinks that let you respawn where they need you to be, and this is for the whole team. This is the strongest and Most useful equipment ever.
Caldari have a thing that let you live again after your death and a thing that let you: restore your Life, restore your hp, Spam nades, shoot while being healed....
Gallente have a thing that let you see everyone in a location.
And then the poor minmatar have this thing that let you avoid the waits between Battles :( nades do the same while restoring your ammo and nades.
It really should be changed in a Way that it makes me think "sould I shoot or should I use it?"
So I have a suggestion. I am quite sure a buff to hp healed would be too OP in some circumstances. Of you r healing Someone that Goes in and out of cover and in half a second he is at full Armour it would be OP.
So I think it need something active only when your mate is receiving damage but dont affect the amount you heal.
My suggestion is that should give to the objective you are healing a resistance of X% from damages. I suggest something Like 10%.
If a combat shoot to your mate, and the combat lands every shot it is Like you are repairing him for 50 hp/s more then Now. But when you heal your target and he is not under fire you heal him for the normal amount of hp.
I think this wouldnt be too OP but would make it a bit more usefull in a firefight. |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
16
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Posted - 2014.02.09 12:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shameless selfbump |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
16
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Posted - 2014.02.09 12:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:jhon hartigan wrote:So I see that almost all of you see it as a after-battle-recharger. It looks a bit useless this Way. Look at the other equipments :
Amarr have uplinks that let you respawn where they need you to be, and this is for the whole team. This is the strongest and Most useful equipment ever.
Caldari have a thing that let you live again after your death and a thing that let you: restore your Life, restore your hp, Spam nades, shoot while being healed....
Gallente have a thing that let you see everyone in a location.
And then the poor minmatar have this thing that let you avoid the waits between Battles :( nades do the same while restoring your ammo and nades.
It really should be changed in a Way that it makes me think "sould I shoot or should I use it?"
So I have a suggestion. I am quite sure a buff to hp healed would be too OP in some circumstances. Of you r healing Someone that Goes in and out of cover and in half a second he is at full Armour it would be OP.
So I think it need something active only when your mate is receiving damage but dont affect the amount you heal.
My suggestion is that should give to the objective you are healing a resistance of X% from damages. I suggest something Like 10%.
If a combat shoot to your mate, and the combat lands every shot it is Like you are repairing him for 50 hp/s more then Now. But when you heal your target and he is not under fire you heal him for the normal amount of hp.
I think this wouldnt be too OP but would make it a bit more usefull in a firefight. Well it appears CCP are doing it another way, most repair tools allow for spider tanking under the changes, 2 beams or more. Which means you are healing 2 people at 50 HP/s which when it's to heavies with built in resistamce, your enemies will crumble under you now almost immune heavy units. If youmare gonna use your rep tool in combat, don't be suprosed when cloaked scouts start one shotting you with breach shotguns as they fly over the heads of your heavies.
That s exactly the 2 problems the rep tool has:
1 It is only suppose to be a between fight recovery,(because under fire it is almost useless against the high dps) that can be Done better by hives that also restore ammos
I m giving up the 600 dps I could Deal for a thing that hasnt an impact in the fight, and I m also defenseless to use this thing.
Why should I do this? |
jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
16
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Posted - 2014.02.09 13:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Bayeth Mal wrote:jhon hartigan wrote:
You are right, I also did some math considering the fact that none hit every shot but I didnt wanted to write too much.
So the fact is: none thing you should use it between a battle, you should only use it after a battle to let ur mates be ready for the Next one. So in the battle it is stupid to use it instead of your weapon.
In My opinion you should be awarded with more efficiency for this effort you r doing to play with your mates and doing team play.
You're absolutely right, the heavy/logi combo is incredibly easy to counter and is why no body uses it. Never in a well running quad will anybody call out when this combo is being used against them. Never have I heard "Oh **** that heavies got a logi repping him from behind that corner!" I'm not sure if that phrase has ever been uttered in Dust before. And nobody ever... EVER has tried to target the logi first, because why bother? He's not a threat to anyone, and he's not making that heavy any harder to kill. This strategy also isn't seen in PC, and certainly not by a certain well known heavy from a certain corp that rhymes with "Ream Prayers". And when I've been chatting to other heavies you don't hear us chatting about who's the best logi to have, learning the names of logibros/sis out there, because, let's face it, they're a waste of space, I certainly don't care. I'm sorry but this thread is made of fail and no amount of my sarcasm is enough of a punishment. Good day to you sir. I SAID GOOD DAY! Tell that to the Logi/Heavy Combo that went 43/1, I was the only person to kill that heavy.
It happens sometime but it also happen that someone Goes 43 1 alone. Public are useless, you have to look at competitive matches to balance. In PC if You r repairing a heavy you ll se him die as fast as you were doing nothing. You r dedicating yourself only to that heavy and you dont have any impact.
What do you think about my suggestion?
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jhon hartigan
Maphia Clan Corporation
16
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Posted - 2014.02.09 15:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
An heavy "camping" in a corridor with a logi repping him is devastating because the heavy is devastating. The logi is only a Little buff. But very Little. The heavy does 99% of the Power and the logi does 1% it is Like you have the Hero fighting and another soldier. The Hero does 1000 dmg while the soldier does 50. Combined in a fight they are strong but the Hero does all the work while the soldier add his poor Little and useless dmg.
Shouldnt it be balanced? If You have a team of heavy and logi the Power of the duo come only from the heavy... Shouldnt the logi be more effective? Like for example 60% from the heavy and 40% from the logi. Or Even 50/50
We all claim for balance and this is not balanced at all!
Why the Hell am I repairing instead of shooting? The only answer could be to farm WP. And not because I m more usefull this way |
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