DUST Search - Fix to equipment spam (probably not original)

Komodo Jones wrote:

It's true that there aren't many places to put uplinks that are out of reach for other players or at least difficult to get to, mostly a side effect of not being able to enter many buildings so all equipment is out in the open, and I don't see flux grenades really being the main cause of equipment spam, yes they destroy alot of equipment but the reason they destroy alot of equipment at once is because people put it all in the same place.

We all assumed this system was in place in the first place, someone had to tell us or we had to experiment to discover that you can put down multiple kinds of uplinks, so lets go back to this, what if this system WAS actually in place where you can't put more than 1 type of uplink out? What would change? You would separate your uplinks more put them in places that you would expect enemies wouldn't go and stumble on them, this was before scanners but scanners will soon be changing so that we can't see everything in a 100m radius anyway.

The reason I believe uplink spam IS a problem and not just a byproduct of several other problems (which I'll admit are present and do play a part and should be fixed) is because it allows any one person, 2 or 3 people for better results, to win the game for either side, if you can overload the opposite team to the point where they simply can't push you out, not because you're good but because you just got there first, that is a broken mechanic of the game.

It's like playing a game of king of the hill where the team on the hill can turn it into a mountain, it isn't a strategy it's taking advantage of another "win button" and collecting war points.

If other broken mechanics are fixed, so that this system could be allowed to function and that wouldn't make it horribly disproportionate again, then I don't see a problem with it, other than the fact that only 2 or 3 players per match are the ones actually using uplinks and if you're facing squads who all have them and can spam them anyway then your equipment will still be severely outnumbered with less of a way to counter it, but at least it will cut back, maybe make things like CRUs actually important.

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Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 444	Posted - 2014.02.06 03:20:00 - [1] - Quote For those who don't know, as long as you have different "brands" of uplinks, you can put down more than just what the equipment says is allowed as "maximum active", same goes for nanohives. This sometimes leads to problems, one such problem being that people can spam equipment so much as to make it nearly impossible to push an enemy team out of an objective just because of the sheer overwhelming number of spawn points, hell give me a couple of minutes and I can place 15 uplinks OF MY OWN on the field. Another problem being that with too much equipment on the field comes lag, I haven't heard that this issue has changed so last I heard, mainly in PC matches everyone drops as many uplinks as possible and then complains when the game gets down to like 1 frame/second. First of all, that doesn't make sense, that's like going to a psychiatrist and saying "hey I steal from work and then I feel bad about it, make me not feel bad about it!" secondly I have a fair and definitely do-able solution. Only allow 1 type of drop uplink and 1 type of nanohive to be deployed at a time per player. So let's say for example someone decides to use the R-9 uplink, you can place 2 of those on the map, any more and the oldest one deployed gets destroyed, now let's say you place a different kind of uplink like allotek flux drop uplinks, all of the R-9s you placed will be destroyed and then you can place as many alloteks as they allow (up to 2 also but they're better!) We can already track how many of what type of uplink a person can drop and destroy the ones you're replacing, it could easily be done to destroy older types of uplinks too, it probably just hasn't been done yet because CCP didn't think it would cause a problem. It would still be possible for an entire team to drop a total of 32 uplinks, 48 if they use a certain kind, this is more than enough. EDIT: just to be clear, nanohives and uplinks would be counted separately, dropping a nanohive won't destroy your uplinks This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 1871	Posted - 2014.02.06 05:53:00 - [2] - Quote Eh, you'd just get all 32 people spawning in with crappy uplinks and spamming them anyway. Make it skill based, you actually have to spend some SP to use them. This keeps scouts and logis viable, reduces spam, and keeps equipment in the hands of players serious about using them. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.1 Amarr victor!
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 952	Posted - 2014.02.06 12:14:00 - [3] - Quote Fine, give me back my SP and my ISK that I spent based on the actual documentation and not this dream solution. Not to mention like the other commenter pointed out it will get gamed to death in the first day anyway. And so it goes.
Dandeth Adloth ReDust Inc. 15	Posted - 2014.02.06 12:57:00 - [4] - Quote It is very easy to counter that, there is a magic device called flux grenade... gets rid of all that crap, even through walls and ceilings. Try it out, you'll be impressed how easy it is to get rid of all that lag creating crap.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 17:35:00 - [5] - Quote Make a skill that allows you to drop more than 1 type of the same equipment? And why would everyone use crappy ones? Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, I'll give an example, one of my logistics suits has 3 different kinds of uplinks, R-9s quantums and whatever the other advanced kind is, with that I can place down a maximum of 6 uplinks, 2 of each, this plan makes it so that I can only use the R-9s, or only the quantums, or only the other advanced kind, if I were to try to put down 2 quantum uplinks and then place the R-9s, the quantums would be destroyed, and after that if I tried to replace the R-9s with something else, they would be destroyed, and so on. Kal I have no idea what you're talking about And yes I'm aware of flux grenades, good luck trying to get rid of equipment covering a city with you and 3 flux grenades, I'm sure alot of people in PC carry flux grenades but in pub matches that's a different story This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 17:43:00 - [6] - Quote Sounds like you guys got the impression that I only wanted a maximum of 1 of each kind of uplink to be placed, that's not the case, because then the only thing separating proto and basic is the spawn time. I don't want to decrease the maximum active uplinks on the description, I just don't want people to be able to just put a ton of different kinds of uplinks on their suits and put down 6 or even 9 at once before changing their suit, 1, 2, or 3 at maximum for each player depending on the kind you use. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1910	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:06:00 - [7] - Quote Mixing solutions for a performance issue (Lag) and a mechanics issue (tactical balance) likely isn't the best way to go about things, it muddies the waters as it were. The lag effect from deployed objects just needs to be fixed. That's something on it's own and should not be a factor in considerations of game balance. It seems like a allocation issue with the paging file but I could be wrong on that. Regardless of what the problem is it's certainly not insurmountable. I've upgraded to an SSD for my PS3 and even when stress testing it by usual multiple logi to deploy full sets of hives and links into a confined area and then engaging in a fire fight there I have encountered zero lag, and that's with a network connection that is solid but not top of the line. So the lag from deployed objects, just like the lag from having several chat channels at once, simply needs to be improved on. Regarding the spam, there are several aspects to consider. One is that the current scaling on WP within the equipment line is broken in several cases, which encourages spam because the Risk vs Reward paradigm is distorted. Another is the effect of other meta game aspects, such as scanners and flux nades. If you can't hide an uplink anywhere (best you can do is put it so high it requires a dropship to reach) and a single flux can take out several in a radius then to get reliable value from the uplink (be that tactical value or WP value) you're best bet is to spam like mad, and for tactical value to have your squad mates spamming like mad too. One Merc with fluxes can clear an entire room of 14+ uplinks in a matter of seconds, often while hugging cover most of the time, if he has a coordinated squad this is even easier. Beyond those elements there's the question of "balance" what what it means/what is intended. If the claim is being made that spam causes game imbalance (I don't think it does, I think it's a symptom of imbalance, not a cause) then explain how it causes that imbalance, what that imbalance is and how the alternative method of play would be superior. Once that's been outlined we'd need to refit CPU/PG/ISK/SP costs to bring them inline with the new level of function. If the function of the item is lowered the cost should be as well otherwise it will damage the risk vs reward ratio. 0.02 ISK Cross SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
Ku Shala Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 822	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:12:00 - [8] - Quote the only real fix to equipment spam is to have equipment become disabled or destroyed when they are placed to close together For what is right. For what is ours, Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Join us today! The States Necromancer For The State!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1911	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:20:00 - [9] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: the only real fix to equipment spam is to have equipment become disabled or destroyed when they are placed to close together That opens the door to a world of griefing. One board troll who's left an alt account running passive to level up a type of equipment could grief their entire friendly team by running around and popping their deployed equipment through use of this mechanic. Of course if it were limited to a radius based on only your own deployed equipment that would remove the potential for griefing and could in theory help spam, but only sort of because squads/teams of players could/would still spam. The solution to spam is to make deployed equipment useful outside of a spammed context so that it's worthwhile to do something else with it. At present players spam, because there's really minimal incentive, either tactically or WP wise, to do anything else. (Yes of course there are cases where not spaming is worth while, but they do not define the average and they tend to come with higher levels of risk) 0.02 ISK Cross SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:23:00 - [10] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: the only real fix to equipment spam is to have equipment become disabled or destroyed when they are placed to close together Bad, all that would do is enable trolling and WP stealing, if I put down my uplink next to yours and yours gets destroyed, I steal your points and destroy your equipment, and there's no way to tell how far apart you can place equipment. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.

Ku Shala Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 825	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:38:00 - [11] - Quote you have the mechanic backwards, the fresh equipment would be destroyed by the pulses of the already deployed equipment. and of course the distanced would be shown by the pulse rings you can already see, bigger effective range for equipment the farther they have to be apart. For what is right. For what is ours, Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Join us today! The States Necromancer For The State!
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 643	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:46:00 - [12] - Quote just becareful not to touch the remote explosives and proxy mines with this idea.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:47:00 - [13] - Quote It's true that there aren't many places to put uplinks that are out of reach for other players or at least difficult to get to, mostly a side effect of not being able to enter many buildings so all equipment is out in the open, and I don't see flux grenades really being the main cause of equipment spam, yes they destroy alot of equipment but the reason they destroy alot of equipment at once is because people put it all in the same place. We all assumed this system was in place in the first place, someone had to tell us or we had to experiment to discover that you can put down multiple kinds of uplinks, so lets go back to this, what if this system WAS actually in place where you can't put more than 1 type of uplink out? What would change? You would separate your uplinks more put them in places that you would expect enemies wouldn't go and stumble on them, this was before scanners but scanners will soon be changing so that we can't see everything in a 100m radius anyway. The reason I believe uplink spam IS a problem and not just a byproduct of several other problems (which I'll admit are present and do play a part and should be fixed) is because it allows any one person, 2 or 3 people for better results, to win the game for either side, if you can overload the opposite team to the point where they simply can't push you out, not because you're good but because you just got there first, that is a broken mechanic of the game. It's like playing a game of king of the hill where the team on the hill can turn it into a mountain, it isn't a strategy it's taking advantage of another "win button" and collecting war points. If other broken mechanics are fixed, so that this system could be allowed to function and that wouldn't make it horribly disproportionate again, then I don't see a problem with it, other than the fact that only 2 or 3 players per match are the ones actually using uplinks and if you're facing squads who all have them and can spam them anyway then your equipment will still be severely outnumbered with less of a way to counter it, but at least it will cut back, maybe make things like CRUs actually important. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:56:00 - [14] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: you have the mechanic backwards, the fresh equipment would be destroyed by the pulses of the already deployed equipment. and of course the distanced would be shown by the pulse rings you can already see, bigger effective range for equipment the farther they have to be apart. what happens when the pulse ring goes under the ground in the map because of uneven terrain and you can't see how far to place your uplink? Does this affect equipment that's vertically far enough away? How big will this ring be, because it could potentially block people who have uplinks with faster spawn times from placing theirs down in good locations just because someone sprinted there and got a basic uplink there first. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 19:57:00 - [15] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: just becareful not to touch the remote explosives and proxy mines with this idea. I don't see people covering the field in explosives to be a problem lol This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Ku Shala Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 825	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:03:00 - [16] - Quote there is nothing wrong with 1 person placing 6 uplinks over the whole map the problem is when someone just dumps equipment all over a supply depot and surrounding area without any tactics. do you really want everyone at the start of the match trying to place 1 uplink somewhere. if you try to deploy equipment where equipment already is the fresh equipment should be destroyed or remain inactive For what is right. For what is ours, Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Join us today! The States Necromancer For The State!
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:04:00 - [17] - Quote Regardless of whether or not the game was built to handle a huge amount of equipment, it wouldn't be a problem if each person couldn't put over 20 pieces of equipment down. There is a point where it's just too much whether it's when the frame rate drops or when the other team is physically incapable of making a difference, there's no reason 1 person needs to be able to put down 15 uplinks and if there is a reason then those reasons need to be fixed as well, so we need a plan for not allowing people to go overboard. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Ku Shala Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 825	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:07:00 - [18] - Quote Komodo Jones wrote: Ku Shala wrote: you have the mechanic backwards, the fresh equipment would be destroyed by the pulses of the already deployed equipment. and of course the distanced would be shown by the pulse rings you can already see, bigger effective range for equipment the farther they have to be apart. what happens when the pulse ring goes under the ground in the map because of uneven terrain and you can't see how far to place your uplink? Does this affect equipment that's vertically far enough away? How big will this ring be, because it could potentially block people who have uplinks with faster spawn times from placing theirs down in good locations just because someone sprinted there and got a basic uplink there first. have a red message at the to of the sceen like the "you have been scanned" that says "location unsuitble" when you have equipment out if you are to close to another equipment For what is right. For what is ours, Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Join us today! The States Necromancer For The State!
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:10:00 - [19] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: there is nothing wrong with 1 person placing 6 uplinks over the whole map the problem is when someone just dumps equipment all over a supply depot and surrounding area without any tactics. do you really want everyone at the start of the match trying to place 1 uplink somewhere. if you try to deploy equipment where equipment already is the fresh equipment should be destroyed or remain inactive I think if we were to go through with this plan, it just should not allow you to place the equipment if you're too close to similar equipment, so if you were within like 15m of an uplink the game should just give you a message that says "uplink nearby, cannot deploy" and then give you like the distance to the uplink so you can move away from it, same way you get the distance to a dying person if you have a nanite injector equipped. This way people don't lose equipment just because another uplink was nearby that they didn't know about. This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 446	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:32:00 - [20] - Quote Ok that's something that's more agreeable, after all there's no need for 5 uplinks to be in 1 room, except to make it take longer for anyone that isn't carrying fluxes to dislodge you from that room. But now comes a war point balancing issue, what if someone spaces their uplinks apart but still crowds them in the same general area, blocking out anyone else with uplinks from placing any down or getting any points, just because they got there first? There still should be a limit on how many 1 person can use especially if there's less places to put them, or maybe the problem would work itself out, it would certainly deter people from trying to put uplinks down in a crowded area and it would spread them out more. It doesn't perfectly solve the overall equipment spam problem because I was referring more to the issue of covering a huge area with equipment anyway, this presents it's own problems, namely being that it takes a long time to run to each one and destroy them, prohibitively long. I wasn't concerned so much with too many being in one small area because those CAN easily be dealt with by rushing in with flux grenades, I was more concerned with an entire complex with red uplinks in every corner. This does help the equipment "density" problem if that's what you want to call it and may actually be enough because it does allow people to clear a path and take over an objective instead of wasting their time eliminating 20 uplinks all placed within 40 meters of the objective, but would that actually be enough? This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.

Dandeth Adloth ReDust Inc. 17	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:41:00 - [21] - Quote Simple solution: Reduce the amount of different equipment types! Give only one new equipment per level. So there are only 5 different hives and uplinks in the game. The aurum items are treated as the standard stuff, so you can't deploy them both if they have the same level. This should reduce the amount of spam considerably. Spawn times and nanite amount should stay as they are. Furthermore I would dump all repping capable hives! Reps are either in the suit (module), or in the hands of a logi (rep tool). The rep tool gets a special slot (sidearm) That is only available on logi suits. Amarr logi can choose if they want to carry a repper or a sidearm. Assaults have to be nice to logis, since they will not be able to rep themselves with compact hives anymore. Also, If you change suits, the deployed equipment that is already on the field, will be taken of your assets. So if you spam that stuff, you will pay for it in isk! cheers
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 65	Posted - 2014.02.07 18:19:00 - [22] - Quote Komodo Jones wrote: It's true that there aren't many places to put uplinks that are out of reach for other players or at least difficult to get to, mostly a side effect of not being able to enter many buildings so all equipment is out in the open, and I don't see flux grenades really being the main cause of equipment spam, yes they destroy alot of equipment but the reason they destroy alot of equipment at once is because people put it all in the same place. We all assumed this system was in place in the first place, someone had to tell us or we had to experiment to discover that you can put down multiple kinds of uplinks, so lets go back to this, what if this system WAS actually in place where you can't put more than 1 type of uplink out? What would change? You would separate your uplinks more put them in places that you would expect enemies wouldn't go and stumble on them, this was before scanners but scanners will soon be changing so that we can't see everything in a 100m radius anyway. The reason I believe uplink spam IS a problem and not just a byproduct of several other problems (which I'll admit are present and do play a part and should be fixed) is because it allows any one person, 2 or 3 people for better results, to win the game for either side, if you can overload the opposite team to the point where they simply can't push you out, not because you're good but because you just got there first, that is a broken mechanic of the game. It's like playing a game of king of the hill where the team on the hill can turn it into a mountain, it isn't a strategy it's taking advantage of another "win button" and collecting war points. If other broken mechanics are fixed, so that this system could be allowed to function and that wouldn't make it horribly disproportionate again, then I don't see a problem with it, other than the fact that only 2 or 3 players per match are the ones actually using uplinks and if you're facing squads who all have them and can spam them anyway then your equipment will still be severely outnumbered with less of a way to counter it, but at least it will cut back, maybe make things like CRUs actually important. Increasing spawn time on all uplinks (but not CRUs) would significantly reduce the incentive to spam them, would make life more precious (leading to more thoughtful play), make injectors and rep tools more valuable and make CRUs more important. Fixed.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 454	Posted - 2014.02.09 03:14:00 - [23] - Quote As far as I know the spawn timer is increasing and good logies will need to come out to bring the good equipment if anyone wants to fight ever, I'm not sure if overall spawn time is getting increased but it looks like the plan is to at least increase the spawn time of uplinks up to a maximum of 15 seconds This is a signature. You're now reading it. You may now reply to my post.


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