DUST Search - Squaring the Circle: A Manifesto on DUST 514s possible future

Hobo on Fire wrote:

I think your forgetting another chunk of the playerbase: people who have heard of/are interested by Eve but don't want to play it.

I've heard stories about all the crazy things that happen in Eve for years, and have always been fascinated by it. Every time I watched some gameplay videos or read a write up of some huge battle though, my reaction has been that it looks too much like work or is far too slow paced to keep my interest. As an actual SA goon I would have a foot in the door with one of the most powerful alliances in Eve, but it's not enough to make me want to play... I'm content to sit back and wait for the next article about 2000 people logged into a single battle and shooting at each other.

I was attracted to Dust because it was a way to get involved in New Eden's crazy MMO aspect, while playing a more conventional, faster paced game. I've stuck around for almost a year now because of the people I play with, and CCP's promise that one day Dust will actually make a difference in New Eden, which they have yet to deliver on.

I've said it before, CCP doesn't have the resources to make Dust the next Call of Duty or Battlefield; it will never compete with the big boys as a pure FPS. The MMO aspect is where it can stand out and make a real name for itself, because CCP has already made an MMO so interesting people who don't even play it have an interest in it's workings, politics and battles.


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Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2898	Posted - 2014.02.06 01:10:00 - [1] - Quote The biggest problem is that Dust 514, as it stands, is simply a low player count lobby shooter. There is nothing "EVE-like" about it, at all, besides the window dressing of the poorly implemented SP system that serves no purpose other than to artificially inflate the egos of the people who are bad enough at FPS gaming to actually stick around and play this game as it currently stands. At this point, it's become abundantly clear that CCP simply doesn't have the technical chops to truly craft a well oiled and enjoyable action FPS title. What we know they are quite good at, is building large and complex political and economic simulations. It's also safe to say that people looking for the cream of the crop FPS experience are just never going to look towards Dust 514 to scratch that itch. So, to me, the answer seems simply. Instead of spending months upon months tinkering with the deck chairs on a sinking ship, trying to micromanage DPS numbers on rifles and other pointless nonsense, CCP needs to work to make Dust 514 the FPS version of EVE online. We all know no one plays Eve Online for the fast paced twitch gaming, and the people playing Dust 514 aren't playing it because it's the pinnacle of FPS game design. The majority of the player base are simply tolerating the gameplay in hopes that at some point it will "mean something." As a long time Director for Subdreddit, which is the main Dust 514 arm of TEST, I've seen our numbers dwindle from a time when we had 50-100 online playing Dust 514 at any given time of day, to being lucky to have enough guys online to field more than one squad. There was a time when we were 800 members strong, and our players spent hours discussing how they hoped CCP would implement all of the grand designs we were told to expect. Now, even our directors pretty much only log in when we feel like taking a break from Minecraft. So, Samaheil, you and I might be on opposite sides of the fence, but we're still both on the same page.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2898	Posted - 2014.02.06 01:23:00 - [2] - Quote Samahiel wrote: Baal Roo wrote: So, Samaheil, you and I might be on opposite sides of the fence, but we're still both on the same page. I was flying strat ops alongside test before I was shooting them. Alliances and relationships in EVE are fickle. The genius of CCP is that they gave us a wonderful sandbox to ally, betray, shoot, rep, spy on, and make back room deals with each other. In the end we're all just nerds who like our space explosions and laser beams with a side helping of Machiavellian politics. Grrr, GOONS! Why can't you just let me have my snappy closer?
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2916	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:51:00 - [3] - Quote Sigberct Amni wrote: Hobo on Fire wrote: Paging CCP to the thread. We know you that you know it exists. :tinfoil: They already responded. On twitter. Does anyone have a link, or even better, can someone copy/pasta their response? (twitter is trash for anything other than witty one-liners and pictures of lunches)
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2923	Posted - 2014.02.08 08:50:00 - [4] - Quote Frankly, I think worrying about Dust mercenary's impact on EVE is putting the cart before the horse. How about CCP start by finding ways in which Dust mercenaries can have an impact on Dust 514. As it is, we have the joke that is PC, the pointless lobby shooter of the instant queue, and the half-assed Faction Warfare that only differs from the instant queue in a superficial way (the type of currency earned). For instance, we're nearly a year into the game, and we still can't even team deploy unless it's a match that was set up 24-48 hours in advance. That alone has run off a good 80% of Subdreddit's members. It did no good to have 50-100 guys online, when we can only play in groups of 6. The current queue mechanics means that you have to be in either a highly structured "hardcore" coporation, or basically play with "randoms" and have no way of feeling like you can have an impact on the world of Dust 514. yet, the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle. Most players are "semi-casual." They want to find a corporation to play with, log into the game at will, and feel like they are contributing to their "band of brothers." So, why is the majority ignored for the whims of the minority? Why isn't FW team-deploy? Why can't we see in a clear and concise way which faction owns which planets, and which corporations are supporting which of those factions? Why isn't there a "frontline" mechanic that lets us choose where we want to fight? Does CCP think that Dust 514 players are too stupid to have the same sort of autonomy that they afford EVE players? Because that's the way it feels. It feels like CCP thinks we're all a bunch of blubbering idiots who need our gameplay micromanaged... it's actually sort of insulting. Why not let us choose which planet and district to attack and defend whenever we want? Why not make FW matches take, say, two or three times as long to complete, but if you choose a district that is undefended you can just walk up and take it? Sure, it might be "boring" to some, but those people that want a fight will choose to fight. Isn't that the whole point of New Eden, giving players THE CHOICE to do what they want?
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2927	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:15:00 - [5] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: Baal Roo wrote: ...We know CCP already has the ability to move the MCCs around on the field in real time, they could do that all the way back in Skirmish 1.0... and it was COOL AS HELL. imagine your on the surface of a FW district, you're messing around, practicing flying dropships or squad tactics, and in comes the enemy MCC. BATTLE COMMENCES.... I kind of get the feeling that mobile MCCs were removed (at least in part) for being buggy as all hell. If they could have them show up out of the blue like you describe, I agree it would be ridiculously awesome. Good point, and if that is the case, they could just have them "materialize" out of thin air. Just a simple yes/no variable where the MCC is moved way off the map and made invisible until a squad/team queues in. Cue wibbly-wobbly animation of MCC materializing, flip the variable, MCC appears in sky. It's the agency bit that's important, not how it gets animated.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2927	Posted - 2014.02.08 19:40:00 - [6] - Quote Dusters Blog wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Why not let us choose which planet and district to attack and defend whenever we want? Why not make FW matches take, say, two or three times as long to complete, but if you choose a district that is undefended you can just walk up and take it? Sure, it might be "boring" to have matches end up as 16 vs 0, but those people that want a fight will choose to fight. Isn't that the whole point of New Eden, giving players THE CHOICE to do what they want? The player base of Dust 514 wants the same feeling of player agency that the players of EVE enjoy. Even just a taste of it. Allowing us to choose our fights in FW would give people that feeling of being able to "walk around on the districts" that we hear people ask for over and over again, it's just if you do so you have to keep an eye out because an enemy faction could roll in on a warbarge and start blasting you in the face. sounds like a FW conquest mode where capsuleers and dustbunnies to decide what locations to take over. we likey. Y'know, the frustrating thing is that I don't feel like I'm suggesting anything revolutionary here. I feel like 19 out of 20 people who read that post are going to think "well yeah, that's how I expected FW to work all along." What makes the whole thing seem really bizzare, is that the entire infrastructure is already sitting there in place, the only thing that's missing is the player agency... which coming from the developers of EVE Online just seems insane. We already have the map with all the planets and districts, they've already even gone to the trouble of giving us our own awesome version of it, tailor made for the Dust 514 experience. We already have the factions. We already have the EVE capsuleers fighting to create the frontlines. We already have corporation standings. The only thing we don't have is a way to actually leverage all of that hard work they've put in. I assume there is some sort of real reason why it doesn't already work this way, and if I had to speculate I would think it comes down to 1 of 2 things: 1. Real World Limitations Maybe they simply don't have the server space to allow us to all choose which district we want to be on. It could be that it would just overload there servers if they don't micromanage exactly how many instances there are up and running at a given time. That's a completely understandable limitation. The fear would be that if we could just queue onto whatever district we wanted, corps would start queueing 1 guy onto each district, and they'd have to have 31 extra instances up and running versus how it works now (instead of 32 people in an instance, there would be 32 maps up with 1 guy on each). I feel like this could be mitigated by simply requiring 16+ players to queue into a match before the instance will trigger. We already have the "squad finder" in place, so all this would necesitate is expanding how that system works up a step into a FW Deploy Finder (terrible name, but illustrates the concept). If you don't have 16 guys ready to go, you have to fill your team up before the guy who posted the Team into the FW Deploy Finder can choose where you head off to. 2. Fear of Pacifism The other problem I can forsee is one in which CCP wants us to have to fight. Afterall, this is an FPS, so it makes sense that their initial reaction to the idea might be "yeah, but then everyone would just follow the path of least resistance and avoid fighting one another." If this is the case, I say "HOGWASH." Look CCP, this is why you have the Salvage System. This is why you have WP. This is why you make ISK, LP, and SP payouts pegged to who the enemy lost in battle. Not only that, but with an open system in which teams have to deploy in groups of 16, a team that wants a fight could simply look at the map and find districts where an enemy team is already deployed. Besides, if the players end up wanting to avoid fights then why not let us? Why do you care if we fight or not? Why don't you trust us to make our own fun? Is that how you treat EVE Players, with handholding and forcing them to only go to systems where the enemy is located? Eltra Ardell wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Frankly, I think worrying about Dust mercenary's impact on EVE is putting the cart before the horse. How about CCP start by finding ways in which Dust mercenaries can have an impact on Dust 514. This is poor thinking. DUST and EVE are not separate games and separate universes. New Eden is the world, and each game is the window. DUST will have DUST things and EVE will have EVE things, but thinking of them as separate beasts is what makes one lose sight of what will make DUST unique and survive beyond years. I see your point, and I respect your opinion. But on this particular issue I agree with CCP, and I think it's a waste of time to push against what CCP wants here. They want the games to be able to both stand on their own before they integrate them more fully, and I completely understand that line of thinking. EVE already works well without Dust 514, but Dust 514 does not stand on it's own as a complete experience. The links they have created with EVE are actually pretty cool (like with FW), the problem is simply the Player Agency available on the Dust 514 side. We don't yet have agency to properly influence our own sphere of play, it would be madness to jump past that step and go straight to more heavily influencing some other videogame. Most of the influence we already have on EVE isn't even readily obvious to Dust mercs. So, why would we be worried about digging a bigger tunnel between our two homes, when our own home is still just a mud hut with no windows? Without a clearer goal of how Dust 514 is to work, and more player agency for Dust 514 players, increasing the EVE integration is meaningless.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2942	Posted - 2014.02.09 21:26:00 - [7] - Quote Hey guys, CCP are aware of this thread and have already stated that they intend to respond, but it's currently the weekend. Have some patience, there's a lot of content to read through, and formulating an "official" response to this kind of thing can be tricky.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2951	Posted - 2014.02.11 20:58:00 - [8] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: I think your forgetting another chunk of the playerbase: people who have heard of/are interested by Eve but don't want to play it. I've heard stories about all the crazy things that happen in Eve for years, and have always been fascinated by it. Every time I watched some gameplay videos or read a write up of some huge battle though, my reaction has been that it looks too much like work or is far too slow paced to keep my interest. As an actual SA goon I would have a foot in the door with one of the most powerful alliances in Eve, but it's not enough to make me want to play... I'm content to sit back and wait for the next article about 2000 people logged into a single battle and shooting at each other. I was attracted to Dust because it was a way to get involved in New Eden's crazy MMO aspect, while playing a more conventional, faster paced game. I've stuck around for almost a year now because of the people I play with, and CCP's promise that one day Dust will actually make a difference in New Eden, which they have yet to deliver on. I've said it before, CCP doesn't have the resources to make Dust the next Call of Duty or Battlefield; it will never compete with the big boys as a pure FPS. The MMO aspect is where it can stand out and make a real name for itself, because CCP has already made an MMO so interesting people who don't even play it have an interest in it's workings, politics and battles. I think you're touching on what most of us are expressing in here. However I just want to point out that Dust 514 is, in and of itself, part of New Eden. So, when we all say that we are waiting for the day "Dust will actually make a difference in New Eden" really all this requires is for Dust to make a difference in Dust, which it currently doesn't do. There's no real clear impact of our actions, even within the confines of Dust's little corner of New Eden. Sure, PC technically has some benefits with the fact that the corps holding districts make extra ISK, but that's really all it is: extra ISK for pre-scheduled battles (and an abstracted representation of their holdings in the form of a little colored dot on a map that no one looks at). If CCP can find ways in which the decisions and actions of Dust 514 players can be seen and felt by the people logging in and playing Dust 514 day to day, then we're starting to get somewhere. But, until Dust 514 players can effect the world in which Dust 514 players currently inhabit (even claiming that we inhabit a world at all is a stretch), it doesn't make sense for us to be worried about how we effect the world of the EVE player. Furthermore, I think we can all spitball specific ideas about how to approach this all day, but in the end CCP are the developers. It's their vision and they'll do things the way they want to do them. I think our time, as players looking to give feedback, is to make sure they don't lose track of the broader vision that they originally sold us on, and the vision that most of us are waiting to see realized. I don't care how they go about make the game feel more cohesive, or how they go about making it feel like we're all having an impact on a living and breathing universe populated by us, all we should care about is that CCP understands that this is something they have not achieved and that the player base thinks these things are of the upmost importance.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2997	Posted - 2014.02.21 23:20:00 - [9] - Quote 2 weeks, 200 posts, and no blue tag.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3004	Posted - 2014.02.25 22:09:00 - [10] - Quote Samahiel wrote: After my last post I took a break from this thread, and went back to focusing on making content for my line members (I also spent a good chunk of that camping N3 into 0-W). This far into the thread, the continued response is nice to see. I have a feeling the CCP Rouge is laying the foundation for some big changes that will be announced at fanfest. My fear at this point, is that with the lack of expectation management and feedback, if the announcement isn't absolutely brilliant it will cause more damage than good to the community. I guess we'll wait and see; Unfortunately for Dust an increasing number of our fellow players will do neither. The irony here is that they're sort of damned if they do, damned if they don't at this point. At least, if they wait until Fanfest to deliver any real information. I mean, if they announce some big changes at fanfest without having the content actually available for the people there to try out, who's going to be gullible enough to actually believe them considering their previous track record? On the other hand, if they wait until fanfest to announce anything, and it's just basic nuts and bolts of some more low level basic implementation of features of accessibility type stuff, they'll get hammered for not being ambitious enough. The only way they can have a real impact at fanfest is if they actually have a bunch of content sitting on the backburner waiting to be revealed there. If they show up and say "here's what we're going to be doing in the next 3 months," and it's some big major changes and upgrades AND they already have a playable version for the people there to try out, then they'll get player's attention. However, if it's just more "pie in the sky" about their "long term goals" and their "10 year plan," no one is going to take them seriously.