DUST Search - Let's talk dust: TTK.

Texs Red wrote:

KA24DERT wrote:

Texs Red wrote:

You may not like TTK but it helps the NPE to a degree. If you take what we have now and remove AA then there will be no new players. You twitchy vets will dance around like fairies becoming darn near untouchable yet have 50% more DPS than he and twice the health of the poor new berry, you will crush him every time. Every single time. At least now if he catches you by surprise he at least stands a very good chance of killing you.

Auto-aim must stay, the NPE should get better not soul-crushingly worse.

I remember when it would take me two full mags of AR plus a mag of SMG to take down a single person at 10 meters because we were both dancing around and leaping about. At least back then proto suits were a rarity and seeing a whole squad of them was a memorable occasion, combine that now with a new berry who has a MLT AR and suit vs a triple damage modded with over 1k eHP proto GalLogi and the result is death every time. That isn't fair to new players, they need a ability to fight higher end players.

So getting blapped in under a second is vital for the NPE, got it...

What the NPE needs is VR training, a proper tutorial, and a longer tiered academy: 1-5k WP, 5k-10k, 10k-25k, 25k-50k, 50k-100k, then off you go.

I would argue that AA is detrimental to the NPE, because a good FPS player will have his skills diminished both by the superior equipment of veterans, AND the "equalization" of gun-game that AA provides. This enables a mediocre proto-scrub to mop the floor with a highly skilled newbie. Emphasizing the RPG aspects over the FPS aspects to that degree is bad, and if that newbie can't bring his skills to bear, they'll rage-quit.

You realize that almost every modern console FPS has AA right? You make dust out to be some kind of social enigma whose use of AA is a poor crutch compared to "true" FPS games but in reality dust has a lower AA than most console games. AA covers up for a poor input device, the DS3, where if you have no AA it can be beyond aggravating to hit people. I don't want to go back to a game where leaping like a fairy around the map is a serious combat strategy, and while I am will to accept certain aspect of reality being bent for the sake of the game that is one thing that doesn't work in RL and shouldn't work here either.

Does TTK need increased? Yes, maybe a little bit.
Do we need to go back to massively shield tanked CalLogis leaping everywhere like fairies? No, for heaven's sake no!

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Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 4366	Posted - 2014.02.05 06:41:00 - [1] - Quote No this is not a complaint, so the DEVs want the ttk to be faster (perhaps not this fast but faster) it's their game they can do that, but if TTK is going to be quick can we, the players, atleast agree that it needs to be fast across all weapons and not just the a select few? Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 4 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Luna Angelo We Who Walk Alone 643	Posted - 2014.02.05 06:48:00 - [2] - Quote If we take away AA, that would solve ALL of these problems. And yes, I use it, so it's not someone QQing about OTHERS using it. I don't need luck, I have ammo. Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. CEO of We Who Walk Alone
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 470	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:13:00 - [3] - Quote Taking away AA is part of the problem, but remember that skilled players will still be able to apply the full DPS of a weapon. The rifles need a 30-40% nerf, and the Assault suit bonus should be a 15% damage boost at LV assault suit. No, we don't need to bring all the other weapons in line with the rifles, and this is coming from a Mass Driver user. We need to buff strafing, remove AA, and nerf the rifles.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 389	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:20:00 - [4] - Quote my question is, in the new builds, besides (possibly??) an improvement to hit detection (or AA); what has changed so dramatically making TTk so much faster then back in Codex and such, when you had Duvolles doing like 42 damage a shot (compared to the 34.2 now), and TTk was longer then it is now ?
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 8950	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:20:00 - [5] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: No this is not a complaint, so the DEVs want the ttk to be faster (perhaps not this fast but faster) it's their game they can do that, but if TTK is going to be quick can we, the players, atleast agree that it needs to be fast across all weapons and not just the a select few? The devs don't want that. They have already stated several times that they don't want it. And they have said that there are across the board damage reductions in 1.8 to help this. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Ollurd Gallente The Rainbow Academy 16	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:31:00 - [6] - Quote If you ask me, a lower TTK really brings out the RPG element. Right now this game feels like a twitch shooter. Tiers and skills don't matter. A militia assault rifle can kill my proto suit as fast as a duvolle. I say reduce the 10% damage raise on all weapons from the past build.
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 271	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:33:00 - [7] - Quote All weapons need to have a similar time to kill however the time to kill definitely doesn't need to increase when you look at it from a scouts perspective. In combat are life expectancy is measured in less that a full second while under fire. If they now have time to turn and return fire after taking a few pistol rounds to the back of the head, well Id be in full retreat wondering....why he no die?! Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Scrambler Pistol dedication
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2697	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:33:00 - [8] - Quote I'm fine with removing AA. Why do we have it again? Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 674	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:38:00 - [9] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: No this is not a complaint, so the DEVs want the ttk to be faster (perhaps not this fast but faster) it's their game they can do that, but if TTK is going to be quick can we, the players, atleast agree that it needs to be fast across all weapons and not just the a select few? The devs don't want that. They have already stated several times that they don't want it. And they have said that there are across the board damage reductions in 1.8 to help this. This is what I don't like. The problem is Rifle DPS everyone knows this, they're just hiding behind "TTK". As a result, the Sniper Rifle loses OHKs and 2HKs. The MD already has low DPS as it is and only gets so many shots before one of the longest reload times in the game. Lasers have to manage overheat even more. Meanwhile Rifles lose nothing because everything is nerfed with them, while still maintaining the ability to kill multiple suits with a single clip. And then there are sidearms. Across the board damage reduction is only going to widen the gap between Auto-Rifles and non-Rifles.
Luna Angelo We Who Walk Alone 645	Posted - 2014.02.05 07:40:00 - [10] - Quote Ivy Zalinto wrote: All weapons need to have a similar time to kill however the time to kill definitely doesn't need to increase when you look at it from a scouts perspective. In combat are life expectancy is measured in less that a full second while under fire. If they now have time to turn and return fire after taking a few pistol rounds to the back of the head, well Id be in full retreat wondering....why he no die?! Remember when Shotty Scouts were the best way to kill heavies? TTK was longer than now. I don't need luck, I have ammo. Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. CEO of We Who Walk Alone

Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 4372	Posted - 2014.02.05 13:49:00 - [11] - Quote Luna Angelo wrote: Ivy Zalinto wrote: All weapons need to have a similar time to kill however the time to kill definitely doesn't need to increase when you look at it from a scouts perspective. In combat are life expectancy is measured in less that a full second while under fire. If they now have time to turn and return fire after taking a few pistol rounds to the back of the head, well Id be in full retreat wondering....why he no die?! Remember when Shotty Scouts were the best way to kill heavies? TTK was longer than now. Ah when shotty was the best choice for CQC, I miss those days. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 4 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1333	Posted - 2014.02.05 14:32:00 - [12] - Quote (insert too damn high meme) I think lowering the weapons with a high ttk's dps is the best option. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 716	Posted - 2014.02.05 14:37:00 - [13] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Taking away AA is part of the problem, but remember that skilled players will still be able to apply the full DPS of a weapon. The rifles need a 30-40% nerf, and the Assault suit bonus should be a 15% damage boost at LV assault suit. No, we don't need to bring all the other weapons in line with the rifles, and this is coming from a Mass Driver user. We need to buff strafing, remove AA, and nerf the rifles. AA was only added to combat lag/latency, players not really being where the animation says they are. AA makes the assumption for who you were probably aiming at and corrects toward the hit box. Removing it will put us back in the days of scoring what looks like a direct hit on screen, but doing no actual damage.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 154	Posted - 2014.02.05 14:43:00 - [14] - Quote You may not like TTK but it helps the NPE to a degree. If you take what we have now and remove AA then there will be no new players. You twitchy vets will dance around like fairies becoming darn near untouchable yet have 50% more DPS than he and twice the health of the poor new berry, you will crush him every time. Every single time. At least now if he catches you by surprise he at least stands a very good chance of killing you. Auto-aim must stay, the NPE should get better not soul-crushingly worse. I remember when it would take me two full mags of AR plus a mag of SMG to take down a single person at 10 meters because we were both dancing around and leaping about. At least back then proto suits were a rarity and seeing a whole squad of them was a memorable occasion, combine that now with a new berry who has a MLT AR and suit vs a triple damage modded with over 1k eHP proto GalLogi and the result is death every time. That isn't fair to new players, they need a ability to fight higher end players.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 1595	Posted - 2014.02.05 14:50:00 - [15] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: my question is, in the new builds, besides (possibly??) an improvement to hit detection (or AA); what has changed so dramatically making TTk so much faster then back in Codex and such, when you had Duvolles doing like 42 damage a shot (compared to the 34.2 now), and TTk was longer then it is now ? I think it is a combination of AA, better mechanics and some DPS is a bit high. I think here soon we'll see a small tweek to the weapons that seem OP now but if we get all new suits and with a racial bonus then it will be back to square one. I am kind of nervous about getting a full line up of suits. I may be fanboy with rose colored glasses but I'm not blind. CCP does many things well and some thing great but releasing stuff that works well or is balanced well are not on that list. They release content with the best of intentions but it is usually just borked for a while. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson
D legendary hero Ultramarine Corp 1460	Posted - 2014.02.05 14:56:00 - [16] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: No this is not a complaint, so the DEVs want the ttk to be faster (perhaps not this fast but faster) it's their game they can do that, but if TTK is going to be quick can we, the players, atleast agree that it needs to be fast across all weapons and not just the a select few? It should with some faster than others for various reasons... lets say for example... HMG Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Luna Angelo We Who Walk Alone 653	Posted - 2014.02.05 15:33:00 - [17] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: Luna Angelo wrote: Ivy Zalinto wrote: All weapons need to have a similar time to kill however the time to kill definitely doesn't need to increase when you look at it from a scouts perspective. In combat are life expectancy is measured in less that a full second while under fire. If they now have time to turn and return fire after taking a few pistol rounds to the back of the head, well Id be in full retreat wondering....why he no die?! Remember when Shotty Scouts were the best way to kill heavies? TTK was longer than now. Ah when shotty was the best choice for CQC, I miss those days. We all do, Sinboto, we all do. I don't need luck, I have ammo. Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. CEO of We Who Walk Alone
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1528	Posted - 2014.02.05 15:44:00 - [18] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Taking away AA is part of the problem, but remember that skilled players will still be able to apply the full DPS of a weapon. The rifles need a 30-40% nerf, and the Assault suit bonus should be a 15% damage boost at LV assault suit. No, we don't need to bring all the other weapons in line with the rifles, and this is coming from a Mass Driver user. We need to buff strafing, remove AA, and nerf the rifles. AA was only added to combat lag/latency, players not really being where the animation says they are. AA makes the assumption for who you were probably aiming at and corrects toward the hit box. Removing it will put us back in the days of scoring what looks like a direct hit on screen, but doing no actual damage. +1 Ivan. I think you have the core observation here. AA was implemented as a sneaky/lazy fix to cover up fundamental problems with FPS core mechanics. Specifically, poor DS3 aiming, poor hit detection, and lag(perhaps both input lag and network lag). It's my belief that the 'feel' of the game is one of the primary factors peeps leave DUST while still in the Academy. Our current AA is a work-around for more fundamental issues but the kicker here is that there's no shortcut: it's the mechanics that lie underneath the AA that need to be fixed before DUST can move forward and prosper. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1528	Posted - 2014.02.05 15:46:00 - [19] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: No this is not a complaint, so the DEVs want the ttk to be faster (perhaps not this fast but faster) it's their game they can do that, but if TTK is going to be quick can we, the players, atleast agree that it needs to be fast across all weapons and not just the a select few? The devs don't want that. They have already stated several times that they don't want it. And they have said that there are across the board damage reductions in 1.8 to help this. +1. This was my understanding also. I support SP rollover.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1081	Posted - 2014.02.05 15:47:00 - [20] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Taking away AA is part of the problem, but remember that skilled players will still be able to apply the full DPS of a weapon. The rifles need a 30-40% nerf, and the Assault suit bonus should be a 15% damage boost at LV assault suit. No, we don't need to bring all the other weapons in line with the rifles, and this is coming from a Mass Driver user. We need to buff strafing, remove AA, and nerf the rifles. AA was only added to combat lag/latency, players not really being where the animation says they are. AA makes the assumption for who you were probably aiming at and corrects toward the hit box. Removing it will put us back in the days of scoring what looks like a direct hit on screen, but doing no actual damage. Hit Detection and AA are different issues. Everyone asked for Hit detection to be improved. Because it was 100 times better in Chromosome... They gave us AA.... and then later Hit detection improvements.. They sold you as good as so many... But the people who know what it has done to DUST and have witnessed it... Know it has hurt DUST and quite frankly made it worse in so many aspects, more so then a couple shots not registering that affects both parties.

Billi Gene 456	Posted - 2014.02.05 15:59:00 - [21] - Quote i think any discussion of weapon system nerf/buffs based around TTK, should take into account the optimal range of the weapons as well as the unique parameters of some weapon systems. The AR, CR, RR and SMG are all variations of the same theme, they have no unique parameters, but do have different Optimal Ranges. Correct me if i am wrong, every other weapon system has unique parameters. [group a] MD, FL, FG and PLC all have splash damage tied to various clip sizes. [group b]The (current) Amarrian weapons along with the HMG all suffer from residual heat build up. [group c] The FL, SG and KN have severely limited optimal range coupled to a powerful damage per shot. Vehicle Turrets and Sniper Rifles for this discussion can be left aside, in favour of individual balance passes outside of all other weapon system considerations? of the three groups i've listed, Group A suffers the least from an increased TTK via damage reduction or EHP increase; the possible exception being the MD with its intuitive aiming system and direct and splash damage being considerably lower than the PLC, which also has an arcing trajectory. AFAIK... still havent skilled into PLC >.< TL:DR we should strive to Not clump all infantry weapons into the same basket when talking about buff/nerf cycles, not every weapon system is created equally. Pedant, Ape, Troll. My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 471	Posted - 2014.02.05 17:53:00 - [22] - Quote Texs Red wrote: You may not like TTK but it helps the NPE to a degree. If you take what we have now and remove AA then there will be no new players. You twitchy vets will dance around like fairies becoming darn near untouchable yet have 50% more DPS than he and twice the health of the poor new berry, you will crush him every time. Every single time. At least now if he catches you by surprise he at least stands a very good chance of killing you. Auto-aim must stay, the NPE should get better not soul-crushingly worse. I remember when it would take me two full mags of AR plus a mag of SMG to take down a single person at 10 meters because we were both dancing around and leaping about. At least back then proto suits were a rarity and seeing a whole squad of them was a memorable occasion, combine that now with a new berry who has a MLT AR and suit vs a triple damage modded with over 1k eHP proto GalLogi and the result is death every time. That isn't fair to new players, they need a ability to fight higher end players. So getting blapped in under a second is vital for the NPE, got it... What the NPE needs is VR training, a proper tutorial, and a longer tiered academy: 1-5k WP, 5k-10k, 10k-25k, 25k-50k, 50k-100k, then off you go. I would argue that AA is detrimental to the NPE, because a good FPS player will have his skills diminished both by the superior equipment of veterans, AND the "equalization" of gun-game that AA provides. This enables a mediocre proto-scrub to mop the floor with a highly skilled newbie. Emphasizing the RPG aspects over the FPS aspects to that degree is bad, and if that newbie can't bring his skills to bear, they'll rage-quit.
ugg reset Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 474	Posted - 2014.02.05 18:07:00 - [23] - Quote Luna Angelo wrote: If we take away AA, that would solve ALL of these problems. And yes, I use it, so it's not someone QQing about OTHERS using it. AA has been toned down a lot since 1.4. what hasn't been toned down is hit detection, which was abysmal at best prior to 1.4. shooting a "speed tank" was like shooting a ghost. Thr33 is the magic number.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 157	Posted - 2014.02.05 18:46:00 - [24] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Texs Red wrote: You may not like TTK but it helps the NPE to a degree. If you take what we have now and remove AA then there will be no new players. You twitchy vets will dance around like fairies becoming darn near untouchable yet have 50% more DPS than he and twice the health of the poor new berry, you will crush him every time. Every single time. At least now if he catches you by surprise he at least stands a very good chance of killing you. Auto-aim must stay, the NPE should get better not soul-crushingly worse. I remember when it would take me two full mags of AR plus a mag of SMG to take down a single person at 10 meters because we were both dancing around and leaping about. At least back then proto suits were a rarity and seeing a whole squad of them was a memorable occasion, combine that now with a new berry who has a MLT AR and suit vs a triple damage modded with over 1k eHP proto GalLogi and the result is death every time. That isn't fair to new players, they need a ability to fight higher end players. So getting blapped in under a second is vital for the NPE, got it... What the NPE needs is VR training, a proper tutorial, and a longer tiered academy: 1-5k WP, 5k-10k, 10k-25k, 25k-50k, 50k-100k, then off you go. I would argue that AA is detrimental to the NPE, because a good FPS player will have his skills diminished both by the superior equipment of veterans, AND the "equalization" of gun-game that AA provides. This enables a mediocre proto-scrub to mop the floor with a highly skilled newbie. Emphasizing the RPG aspects over the FPS aspects to that degree is bad, and if that newbie can't bring his skills to bear, they'll rage-quit. You realize that almost every modern console FPS has AA right? You make dust out to be some kind of social enigma whose use of AA is a poor crutch compared to "true" FPS games but in reality dust has a lower AA than most console games. AA covers up for a poor input device, the DS3, where if you have no AA it can be beyond aggravating to hit people. I don't want to go back to a game where leaping like a fairy around the map is a serious combat strategy, and while I am will to accept certain aspect of reality being bent for the sake of the game that is one thing that doesn't work in RL and shouldn't work here either. Does TTK need increased? Yes, maybe a little bit. Do we need to go back to massively shield tanked CalLogis leaping everywhere like fairies? No, for heaven's sake no!
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 471	Posted - 2014.02.05 19:48:00 - [25] - Quote Texs Red wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Texs Red wrote: You may not like TTK but it helps the NPE to a degree. If you take what we have now and remove AA then there will be no new players. You twitchy vets will dance around like fairies becoming darn near untouchable yet have 50% more DPS than he and twice the health of the poor new berry, you will crush him every time. Every single time. At least now if he catches you by surprise he at least stands a very good chance of killing you. Auto-aim must stay, the NPE should get better not soul-crushingly worse. I remember when it would take me two full mags of AR plus a mag of SMG to take down a single person at 10 meters because we were both dancing around and leaping about. At least back then proto suits were a rarity and seeing a whole squad of them was a memorable occasion, combine that now with a new berry who has a MLT AR and suit vs a triple damage modded with over 1k eHP proto GalLogi and the result is death every time. That isn't fair to new players, they need a ability to fight higher end players. So getting blapped in under a second is vital for the NPE, got it... What the NPE needs is VR training, a proper tutorial, and a longer tiered academy: 1-5k WP, 5k-10k, 10k-25k, 25k-50k, 50k-100k, then off you go. I would argue that AA is detrimental to the NPE, because a good FPS player will have his skills diminished both by the superior equipment of veterans, AND the "equalization" of gun-game that AA provides. This enables a mediocre proto-scrub to mop the floor with a highly skilled newbie. Emphasizing the RPG aspects over the FPS aspects to that degree is bad, and if that newbie can't bring his skills to bear, they'll rage-quit. You realize that almost every modern console FPS has AA right? You make dust out to be some kind of social enigma whose use of AA is a poor crutch compared to "true" FPS games but in reality dust has a lower AA than most console games. AA covers up for a poor input device, the DS3, where if you have no AA it can be beyond aggravating to hit people. I don't want to go back to a game where leaping like a fairy around the map is a serious combat strategy, and while I am will to accept certain aspect of reality being bent for the sake of the game that is one thing that doesn't work in RL and shouldn't work here either. Does TTK need increased? Yes, maybe a little bit. Do we need to go back to massively shield tanked CalLogis leaping everywhere like fairies? No, for heaven's sake no! You do realize that it doesn't matter what's popular, right? "If your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump off a bridge too?" You do realize that before AA hit, the leaderboards were dominated by DS3 users, right? Yes, AA is a crutch, and it's a crutch put in place to enable undedicated gamers to play FPS games competitively. And as I've said before, this is very bad for FPS mechanics, especially in a game like dust with long lasting consequences for player battles. You don't want to go back to a game where "leaping like a fairy" is a combat tactic because you don't know how to aim, and you don't want to learn how to aim. The FPS dance has been a part of the genre since it's inception, and if you could experience the sheer speeds at which games like DooM took place, your head would spin right off your shoulders. You want a game where hyper futuristic powered suits with modules that can produce force fields, enhance cardiac function, and increase skeletal muscle performance produces a soldier that can be outrun by the average NFL player, and be gunned down in under a second by a rifle? I say Poo to that. Realism doesn't necessarily make for good game play, if I wanted to get gunned down in a split second I'd go join the Army. And if you want to shoot still targets, go to a firing range.


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