DUST Search - A challenge to the community

Awry Barux wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

What do you expect?

Back in the day we had MLT-Basic-ADV and even proto tanks being the black ops

Now milita could take out milta and basic too, basic/adv were used for taking out adv and mainly proto was because black ops tanks sucked

But certain players wanted tiercide so for example its what we have now with vehicles it seems

The STD tanks we have are the only tanks it looks like we will ever get but the AV weapons range from mlt to proto as do vehicle mods but the hull is std since you can easily have 5H/5L slots

So we have std tanks with proto mods/turrets going against proto suits/mods and AV weapons

Frankly with that hull and not being able to improve it do you really think i want it to die to basic AV?

I cant even improve the hull

If they do give us basic/adv/proto hulls then im fine for basic/adv/proto AV to handle each hull as it should but currently you cant have that because its not built like that

Blame tiercide

NO.

Some maths:

I can't check right now but I assume that Wiyrkomi swarm has the same lock and reload times as a MLT swarm, feel free to correct my math.

(220 * 6) damage/volley * 1.2 armor bonus * 6 ammo = 9504 damage , or 9504/(1.4*6 + 10) = 516 DPS over 18.4 seconds.
Factor in Prof V and 3x Complex damage mods and we get +15% and +26.4% damage, for a total of 516 * (1.414) = 729 DPS or 13438 damage.

I threw together a complex module Maddy fit with maxed core skills:
1x Basic Nitro
2x Complex heavy repper
1x Basic heavy repper
1x ADV blaster
Yes, I know, it's a weird fit but I'm trying to prove a point. Hardeners are an invincibility button against infantry but adding them in to this discussion is unhelpful since everyone will just say "omg hit them with hardeners down scrub". Hardeners aren't even necessary, though switching the basic repper for a basic hardener would massively improve this fit.

This gives a total of 487.5 armor rep/second, kicking after the second volley, for 487.5*17 seconds = 8287.5 armor repaired over one 6-volley swarm cycle.

So, net per cycle, the Maddy is at a deficit of -5150.5HP- not enough to kill it! Keep in mind that I'm using a very generous treatment of swarm damage. If the swarmer spends even 1 second behind cover when they could be locking on, etc, the Maddy will only repair more. If the swarmer is forced to take cover for just 8.2 seconds (for example, to regenerate their shields) after a full cycle, the tank's armor will repair to full.
A second cycle would get the kill, but nitros mean that the tank can disengage before the SL can even be reloaded.

All of this is ignoring the fact that a blaster tank can kill any medium frame in < 3 seconds, often <1 second, which is at most two swarm volleys. If the tanker's not an idiot, they're going to shoot the guy with the proto swarms. Basically, a maxed swarmer has no real chance of killing a maxed Maddy driver.

tl;dr MLT AV is not balanced against MLT tanks and PRO AV is not balanced against STD hulls with PRO modules. Tiercide is not to blame, good try though.

To those saying "use a FG", a MLT FG hits for 1200 with a 4-second charge, for 330 armor DPS within a clip. Factor in a 4-second reload and we end up with 3960/16 = 247.5DPS. Against an unfit soma, this gives the AVer a net damage gain of 147.5 damage/second, or 35.25 (36 because you can't fire most of a FG shot) seconds to kill an unfit MLT armor tank.

And no, it doesn't hold up better for proto AFGs. With 2x comp damage mods and prof V, the Ishy AFG does 685 damage/second to armor. Against the maddy described above, this gives a net gain of 208 damage/second, for a total of 25 seconds to kill the tank.

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Awry Barux Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 440	Posted - 2014.02.04 05:03:00 - [1] - Quote After messing around on my tank alt for a bit, and then playing as militia anti-armor for a few matches, I have a theory: it is literally impossible to kill a Soma (much less a Madrugar) using the militia anti-armor fit. I don't mean last-hitting after a FG does the real work, but actually stalking and killing. A little math to back this up: 880 dmg/volley * 7 volleys (2 in clip + 5 ammo) = 6160 damage Assuming 100% time on target, with a lock-on time of 1.4 seconds and a reload time of 5 seconds, and no delays between shots or before/after reloading, we find that it takes (1.47) + 15 = 24.8 seconds to empty the clip, for (6160/24.8) = 248 damage/second. Now, for the sake of argument and easy calculation, let's assume that every shot receives the armor damage bonus of 20%, giving us a total of 7392 damage, or a damage/second of 298. In 24.8 seconds, a MLT heavy repper will repair 2480HP. If it doesn't kick in until after the second volley due to shields, it will heal for 2200. The Soma's natural HP is 5200. Therefore its EHP over these 24.8 seconds is 7400. So, even with generous damage calculation (assuming that the shots against the Soma's shields also receive the 20% armor damage bonus), the total AV damage possible from a MLT anti-armor fit cannot EVER destroy a Soma with no non-default modules, even if it is absolutely stationary.* Prove me wrong, with videos or words!
SHANN da MAN D3LTA FORC3 169	Posted - 2014.02.04 17:58:00 - [2] - Quote You forgot to mention that in order to get 7 volleys you would have to be standing next to a Supply Depot or on a couple of Nanohives (a single nanohive doesn't resupply fast enough) or you would run out of Ammo. nothing to see here ... move along
Awry Barux Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 440	Posted - 2014.02.04 18:04:00 - [3] - Quote SHANN da MAN wrote: You forgot to mention that in order to get 7 volleys you would have to be standing next to a Supply Depot or on a couple of Nanohives (a single nanohive doesn't resupply fast enough) or you would run out of Ammo. Whoops forgot that I had a level of ammo capacity when I tested this. I'm extra right, then.
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 151	Posted - 2014.02.04 18:10:00 - [4] - Quote Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one?
Jimmy McNaulty NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 13	Posted - 2014.02.04 18:15:00 - [5] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? LITERALLY THIS!!! +1 Much like you don't use a sledgehamme to crush an ant, you need to use the right tool for the job. I recommend tanks, or you should try to spec into SL a little more and use damage modifiers. Thems the breaks until we find out what 1.8 has in store for us.
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 658	Posted - 2014.02.04 18:22:00 - [6] - Quote Jimmy McNaulty wrote: Much like you don't use a sledgehamme to crush an ant,. Bad analogy, a sledgehammer could crush an ant, very easily, if a little overkill. A better one would be an axe for mining, or a shotgun for sniping. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 168	Posted - 2014.02.04 18:41:00 - [7] - Quote CCP just needs to state intended roles. Swarmers comfortably kill LAVs and distract dropships by knocking them around. Is that the intended role? Or are they supposed to hurt HAVs? Because currently, as OP said, tanks are literally invincible against lower level swarms. I've got nothing against REs (Especially due to Jihad Jeeps) and FGs being the real anti-tank weaponry. If other tanks are supposed to be the best counter, however, I demand that all decently anti-infantry turrets are gimped in terms of AV damage and vice-versa.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 244	Posted - 2014.02.04 18:45:00 - [8] - Quote Jimmy McNaulty wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? LITERALLY THIS!!! +1 Much like you don't use a sledgehamme to crush an ant, you need to use the right tool for the job. I recommend tanks, or you should try to spec into SL a little more and use damage modifiers. Thems the breaks until we find out what 1.8 has in store for us. Adv and pro swarms are dor solo, forges are for tanks 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter mlt frame, Templar set Caldari Master Race
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2385	Posted - 2014.02.04 18:56:00 - [9] - Quote What do you expect? Back in the day we had MLT-Basic-ADV and even proto tanks being the black ops Now milita could take out milta and basic too, basic/adv were used for taking out adv and mainly proto was because black ops tanks sucked But certain players wanted tiercide so for example its what we have now with vehicles it seems The STD tanks we have are the only tanks it looks like we will ever get but the AV weapons range from mlt to proto as do vehicle mods but the hull is std since you can easily have 5H/5L slots So we have std tanks with proto mods/turrets going against proto suits/mods and AV weapons Frankly with that hull and not being able to improve it do you really think i want it to die to basic AV? I cant even improve the hull If they do give us basic/adv/proto hulls then im fine for basic/adv/proto AV to handle each hull as it should but currently you cant have that because its not built like that Blame tiercide Intelligence is OP
Jackof All-Trades The Black Renaissance 435	Posted - 2014.02.04 19:08:00 - [10] - Quote I did it by accident once. We were getting stomped by tanks, and I pulled out the Anti-Armour Swarm Launcher to try and scare it off. I ended up killing it. It was one of my alt's greatest moments. "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente

ReGnYuM Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2041	Posted - 2014.02.04 19:18:00 - [11] - Quote Jimmy McNaulty wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? LITERALLY THIS!!! +1 Much like you don't use a sledgehamme to crush an ant, you need to use the right tool for the job. I recommend tanks, or you should try to spec into SL a little more and use damage modifiers. Thems the breaks until we find out what 1.8 has in store for us. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA Do you tankers not even understand your own absurdity? There are currently only three types of AV weapons in the game The Plasma Cannon which is more effective against infantry then vehicles. The Forge Gun which requires a heavy suit And the Swarm Launcher Are you really trying to suggest that out of one three weapons to kill vehicles, is only specialized for LAVs. Or better yet, a player must both skill a heavy suit and forge gun to counter tanks. The AV vs Vehicle balance is clearly not working as intended. Anything else and you're part of the problem. Official Imperfect Title: Supreme Leader of the Endless Sunset I Slay, for thy Empress Do you even PC... Brah
Sgt Buttscratch 1436	Posted - 2014.02.04 19:27:00 - [12] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? This is almost right, but swarms should always cause a tank to retreat at one point or another. It shouldn't be oh **** runs hes got a swarmer, but if an armor tank sits stationary for 7 volleys, it should die. In other words a MLT tank should be able to laugh off swarmers for a short while, but when careless or r3tarded should lose out. At the end of the day its still a vehicle and swarmers are anti vehicle, regardless if they are primarily designed for LAV, at tanker should not gain 100% invulnerability due to the fact he is in a tank. He should always be forced into a fight or flight battle when facing AV I stick my weiner in two buns and and then give it the gas Sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
MrShooter01 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 485	Posted - 2014.02.04 19:33:00 - [13] - Quote Anecdotally adding to OP's post, I actually did drive a militia fit soma into battle with 2x militia heavy reps I'm a **** tanker so I didn't really kill anyone other than a couple guys in the middle of the field and eventually lost it to a turret installation, but before that there was a guy on top of a building firing swarms at me. I didn't move, didn't activate my hardener, let him deplete my shields. My armor regenerated back to 100% between each volley of swarms. Again, no hardener, militia reps, no skillpoints in armor repairing for a bonus to the repair rate. He could have been sitting on a supply depot firing swarms at me forever, and I could have just ignored him until the round ended.
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 635	Posted - 2014.02.04 19:45:00 - [14] - Quote no need to skill into a heavy suit to use a forge gun... r ppl stupid enough to forget about the mlt heavy suit? which requires 0 sp to use. it sure seems that way.. right now u need something stronger than just a mlt swarm to kill a tank. at the very least throw the av nades then fire the volley to finish it off. its how ive been killing tanks.. they rnt 100% easily solo able any more. u pretty much need a combination of av equipment in order to kill a tank while solo which is what i want. 2 ppl firing swarms barraging are bound to kill the vehicle if it doesnt get out as fast as possible.
Awry Barux Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 445	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:05:00 - [15] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: What do you expect? Back in the day we had MLT-Basic-ADV and even proto tanks being the black ops Now milita could take out milta and basic too, basic/adv were used for taking out adv and mainly proto was because black ops tanks sucked But certain players wanted tiercide so for example its what we have now with vehicles it seems The STD tanks we have are the only tanks it looks like we will ever get but the AV weapons range from mlt to proto as do vehicle mods but the hull is std since you can easily have 5H/5L slots So we have std tanks with proto mods/turrets going against proto suits/mods and AV weapons Frankly with that hull and not being able to improve it do you really think i want it to die to basic AV? I cant even improve the hull If they do give us basic/adv/proto hulls then im fine for basic/adv/proto AV to handle each hull as it should but currently you cant have that because its not built like that Blame tiercide NO. Some maths: I can't check right now but I assume that Wiyrkomi swarm has the same lock and reload times as a MLT swarm, feel free to correct my math. (220 * 6) damage/volley * 1.2 armor bonus * 6 ammo = 9504 damage , or 9504/(1.46 + 10) = 516 DPS over 18.4 seconds. Factor in Prof V and 3x Complex damage mods and we get +15% and +26.4% damage, for a total of 516 (1.414) = 729 DPS or 13438 damage. I threw together a complex module Maddy fit with maxed core skills: 1x Basic Nitro 2x Complex heavy repper 1x Basic heavy repper 1x ADV blaster Yes, I know, it's a weird fit but I'm trying to prove a point. Hardeners are an invincibility button against infantry but adding them in to this discussion is unhelpful since everyone will just say "omg hit them with hardeners down scrub". Hardeners aren't even necessary, though switching the basic repper for a basic hardener would massively improve this fit. This gives a total of 487.5 armor rep/second, kicking after the second volley, for 487.517 seconds = 8287.5 armor repaired over one 6-volley swarm cycle. So, net per cycle, the Maddy is at a deficit of -5150.5HP- not enough to kill it! Keep in mind that I'm using a very generous treatment of swarm damage. If the swarmer spends even 1 second behind cover when they could be locking on, etc, the Maddy will only repair more. If the swarmer is forced to take cover for just 8.2 seconds after a full cycle, the tank's armor will repair to full. A second cycle would get the kill, but nitros mean that the tank can disengage before the SL can even be reloaded. All of this is ignoring the fact that a blaster tank can kill any medium frame in < 3 seconds, often <1 second, which is at most two swarm volleys. If the tanker's not an idiot, they're going to shoot the guy with the proto swarms. tl;dr MLT AV is not balanced against MLT tanks and PRO AV is not balanced against STD hulls with PRO modules. Tiercide is not to blame, good try though.* To those saying "use a FG", a MLT FG hits for 1200 with a 4-second charge, for 330 armor DPS within a clip. Factor in a 4-second reload and we end up with 3960/16 = 247.5DPS. Against an unfit soma, this gives the AVer a net damage gain of 147.5 damage/second, or 35.25 (36 because you can't fire most of a FG shot) seconds to kill an unfit MLT armor tank. And no, it doesn't hold up better for proto AFGs. With 2x comp damage mods and prof V, the Ishy AFG does 685 damage/second to armor. Against the maddy described above, this gives a net gain of 208 damage/second, for a total of 25 seconds to kill the tank.
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 156	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:13:00 - [16] - Quote Jimmy McNaulty wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? LITERALLY THIS!!! +1 Much like you don't use a sledgehamme to crush an ant, you need to use the right tool for the job. I recommend tanks, or you should try to spec into SL a little more and use damage modifiers. Thems the breaks until we find out what 1.8 has in store for us. You may wish to take your like back. I was being sarcastic.
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:21:00 - [17] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: What do you expect? Back in the day we had MLT-Basic-ADV and even proto tanks being the black ops Now milita could take out milta and basic too, basic/adv were used for taking out adv and mainly proto was because black ops tanks sucked But certain players wanted tiercide so for example its what we have now with vehicles it seems The STD tanks we have are the only tanks it looks like we will ever get but the AV weapons range from mlt to proto as do vehicle mods but the hull is std since you can easily have 5H/5L slots So we have std tanks with proto mods/turrets going against proto suits/mods and AV weapons Frankly with that hull and not being able to improve it do you really think i want it to die to basic AV? I cant even improve the hull If they do give us basic/adv/proto hulls then im fine for basic/adv/proto AV to handle each hull as it should but currently you cant have that because its not built like that Blame tiercide NO. Some maths: I can't check right now but I assume that Wiyrkomi swarm has the same lock and reload times as a MLT swarm, feel free to correct my math. (220 * 6) damage/volley * 1.2 armor bonus * 6 ammo = 9504 damage , or 9504/(1.46 + 10) = 516 DPS over 18.4 seconds. Factor in Prof V and 3x Complex damage mods and we get +15% and +26.4% damage, for a total of 516 (1.414) = 729 DPS or 13438 damage. I threw together a complex module Maddy fit with maxed core skills: 1x Basic Nitro 2x Complex heavy repper 1x Basic heavy repper 1x ADV blaster Yes, I know, it's a weird fit but I'm trying to prove a point. Hardeners are an invincibility button against infantry but adding them in to this discussion is unhelpful since everyone will just say "omg hit them with hardeners down scrub". Hardeners aren't even necessary, though switching the basic repper for a basic hardener would massively improve this fit. This gives a total of 487.5 armor rep/second, kicking after the second volley, for 487.517 seconds = 8287.5 armor repaired over one 6-volley swarm cycle. So, net per cycle, the Maddy is at a deficit of -5150.5HP- not enough to kill it! Keep in mind that I'm using a very generous treatment of swarm damage. If the swarmer spends even 1 second behind cover when they could be locking on, etc, the Maddy will only repair more. If the swarmer is forced to take cover for just 8.2 seconds after a full cycle, the tank's armor will repair to full. A second cycle would get the kill, but nitros mean that the tank can disengage before the SL can even be reloaded. All of this is ignoring the fact that a blaster tank can kill any medium frame in < 3 seconds, often <1 second, which is at most two swarm volleys. If the tanker's not an idiot, they're going to shoot the guy with the proto swarms. Basically, a maxed swarmer has no real chance of killing a maxed Maddy driver. tl;dr MLT AV is not balanced against MLT tanks and PRO AV is not balanced against STD hulls with PRO modules. Tiercide is not to blame, good try though.* To those saying "use a FG", a MLT FG hits for 1200 with a 4-second charge, for 330 armor DPS within a clip. Factor in a 4-second reload and we end up with 3960/16 = 247.5DPS. Against an unfit soma, this gives the AVer a net damage gain of 147.5 damage/second, or 35.25 (36 because you can't fire most of a FG shot) seconds to kill an unfit MLT armor tank. And no, it doesn't hold up better for proto AFGs. With 2x comp damage mods and prof V, the Ishy AFG does 685 damage/second to armor. Against the maddy described above, this gives a net gain of 208 damage/second, for a total of 25 seconds to kill the tank. A basic Railgun can put out about 72,000 damage points in this time frame, if I remember the stats correctly.
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:22:00 - [18] - Quote Sorry, about half that.
Awry Barux Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 445	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:25:00 - [19] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Sorry, about half that. Still, much more than any infantry AV option. Tanks as the only viable counter to tanks is unacceptable game balance, especially given the ease with which a slight tank superiority on one side can lead to denying any tanks called in by the other team after the first 30 seconds of the game.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1904	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:28:00 - [20] - Quote You think this is bad? If an HAV has just two militia heavy armor rappers, a Plasma Cannon can never destroy it. It will actually outrep the Plasma Cannon's DPS, even if the plasma Cannon is an Allotek. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire MAG ~ Seryi Volk Executive Response

Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:30:00 - [21] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? I'm going a of answer my own post, because I can: Where does it say SL is for Light Armor? Nowhere that is where. It never has been confined to that role. So what if they are TANKS? This is just circular logic. Tanks are had to kill, because they are tanks, because they are hard to kill, etc. Everyone should use teamwork, this does not answer the question why killing tanks is a special case. This assumes that the AV'ers are bad, despite the mathematical argument presented. The idea that AV'ers are a special brand of moron that didn't exist prior to 1.7 is just ridiculous.
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 242	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:32:00 - [22] - Quote Jimmy McNaulty wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? LITERALLY THIS!!! +1 Much like you don't use a sledgehamme to crush an ant, you need to use the right tool for the job. I recommend tanks, or you should try to spec into SL a little more and use damage modifiers. Thems the breaks until we find out what 1.8 has in store for us. You realize the post above you was sarcasm right? Well at least I hope it was sarcasm... Anyway... CCP has never made the distinction of light AV, and they still haven't according to CCP. AV is AV.
Awry Barux Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 446	Posted - 2014.02.04 21:49:00 - [23] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: Swarms are supposed to be light AV They are TANKS You should use teamwork Get good Did I miss one? I'm going a of answer my own post, because I can: Where does it say SL is for Light Armor? Nowhere that is where. It never has been confined to that role. So what if they are TANKS? This is just circular logic. Tanks are had to kill, because they are tanks, because they are hard to kill, etc. Everyone should use teamwork, this does not answer the question why killing tanks is a special case. This assumes that the AV'ers are bad, despite the mathematical argument presented. The idea that AV'ers are a special brand of moron that didn't exist prior to 1.7 is just ridiculous. Also, I'll pick up this torch: it should not require teamwork to kill a tank of an equivalent module tier to your equipment. Teamwork by dedicated AVers against 1 tank should all but guarantee a kill, much in the same way that infantry teamwork does against lone infantry or tank teamwork against one tank. Without AV teamwork, a smart tanker should easily have time to retreat, but if the tanker makes significant mistakes and sticks around too long in a bad position, they should die. Why? Because tanks require one person operate. Don't give me that small turret BS- I haven't seen a small turret outside of the LP tanks this whole patch. If it requires two AVers to effectively drive off one tank, the AVers' team is now essentially fighting 14v15. With 5 tanks of the field, this problem becomes only more obvious. This has been Nyain's San/Chan's stomp strategy in recent games that I've played with and against them- 3-4 of their squad members call in armor tanks and wreck the enemy in the initial push. When the enemy switches to AV, the rest of the squad is waiting in GK.0 logis to go 15/0. I've also seen them overheat their blaster tanks, jump out and gun down AVers in their proto logi suits, then get back in and repeat, because they have no fear that their tanks will be destroyed while sitting there unmanned with no active modules. The vast majority of these ambushes ended better than 70-0 or 40-0 in Nyain's favor. Tanks are OP and tank squads are gamebreaking, and their use by Nyain is perhaps the clearest affirmation of this.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2392	Posted - 2014.02.05 13:32:00 - [24] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: What do you expect? Back in the day we had MLT-Basic-ADV and even proto tanks being the black ops Now milita could take out milta and basic too, basic/adv were used for taking out adv and mainly proto was because black ops tanks sucked But certain players wanted tiercide so for example its what we have now with vehicles it seems The STD tanks we have are the only tanks it looks like we will ever get but the AV weapons range from mlt to proto as do vehicle mods but the hull is std since you can easily have 5H/5L slots So we have std tanks with proto mods/turrets going against proto suits/mods and AV weapons Frankly with that hull and not being able to improve it do you really think i want it to die to basic AV? I cant even improve the hull If they do give us basic/adv/proto hulls then im fine for basic/adv/proto AV to handle each hull as it should but currently you cant have that because its not built like that Blame tiercide NO. Some maths: I can't check right now but I assume that Wiyrkomi swarm has the same lock and reload times as a MLT swarm, feel free to correct my math. (220 * 6) damage/volley * 1.2 armor bonus * 6 ammo = 9504 damage , or 9504/(1.46 + 10) = 516 DPS over 18.4 seconds. Factor in Prof V and 3x Complex damage mods and we get +15% and +26.4% damage, for a total of 516 (1.414) = 729 DPS or 13438 damage. I threw together a complex module Maddy fit with maxed core skills: 1x Basic Nitro 2x Complex heavy repper 1x Basic heavy repper 1x ADV blaster Yes, I know, it's a weird fit but I'm trying to prove a point. Hardeners are an invincibility button against infantry but adding them in to this discussion is unhelpful since everyone will just say "omg hit them with hardeners down scrub". Hardeners aren't even necessary, though switching the basic repper for a basic hardener would massively improve this fit. This gives a total of 487.5 armor rep/second, kicking after the second volley, for 487.517 seconds = 8287.5 armor repaired over one 6-volley swarm cycle. So, net per cycle, the Maddy is at a deficit of -5150.5HP- not enough to kill it! Keep in mind that I'm using a very generous treatment of swarm damage. If the swarmer spends even 1 second behind cover when they could be locking on, etc, the Maddy will only repair more. If the swarmer is forced to take cover for just 8.2 seconds (for example, to regenerate their shields) after a full cycle, the tank's armor will repair to full. A second cycle would get the kill, but nitros mean that the tank can disengage before the SL can even be reloaded. All of this is ignoring the fact that a blaster tank can kill any medium frame in < 3 seconds, often <1 second, which is at most two swarm volleys. If the tanker's not an idiot, they're going to shoot the guy with the proto swarms. Basically, a maxed swarmer has no real chance of killing a maxed Maddy driver. tl;dr MLT AV is not balanced against MLT tanks and PRO AV is not balanced against STD hulls with PRO modules. Tiercide is not to blame, good try though.* To those saying "use a FG", a MLT FG hits for 1200 with a 4-second charge, for 330 armor DPS within a clip. Factor in a 4-second reload and we end up with 3960/16 = 247.5DPS. Against an unfit soma, this gives the AVer a net damage gain of 147.5 damage/second, or 35.25 (36 because you can't fire most of a FG shot) seconds to kill an unfit MLT armor tank. And no, it doesn't hold up better for proto AFGs. With 2x comp damage mods and prof V, the Ishy AFG does 685 damage/second to armor. Against the maddy described above, this gives a net gain of 208 damage/second, for a total of 25 seconds to kill the tank. Your using a 3 repper set up, against sustained damage it will pop, 2 proto swarmers will kill it outright as it will do more damage than it can rep back and this i have tested against generally the hardener is used but its on for so long and off for so long leading to retreat tactics Tanks now require sustained fire or a massive alpha strike The way tanks are setup is leading to tiercide, we have no adv or proto tanks which generally have more slots/pg/cpu and possibly diff HP The tanks we have now can nearly fit all proto well the gunlogi can the maddy cant and with tiercide generally the vehicle should be able to nearly fit all proto anyways espc if you have the core skills maxed to level 5 With tiercide this is our only vehicle so what good would it be if it got killed before coming out of the redline? it wouldnt be any good and the whole vehicle overhaul would have been for nothing If we had basic and adv and proto vehicles then basic AV could take out basic vehicles, adv AV could take out adv vehicles and proto AV could take out proto vehicles but we dont have that all we have is 1 hull for tanks and 2 for DS with the ADS being more specialized Tiercide means we have no basic/adv/proto vehicles it means we have a vehicle and maybe a couple of specialized vehicles like the logi DS or ADS like dropsuits have with assault and logi but tanks are the basic hulls right now with no role bonuses Tiercide currently is the problem because the game is a halfway house Intelligence is OP
Awry Barux Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 453	Posted - 2014.02.05 17:05:00 - [25] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Your using a 3 repper set up, against sustained damage it will pop, 2 proto swarmers will kill it outright as it will do more damage than it can rep back and this i have tested against generally the hardener is used but its on for so long and off for so long leading to retreat tactics Tanks now require sustained fire or a massive alpha strike The fact that it takes TWO proto swarmers is a problem though! I'm not asking for tanks to insta-pop like they did pre-1.7, but it's patently obvious now that the team with the most tanks on the field has a massive advantage. In a game of fixed team sizes, something that one character can pilot that requires more than one character to effectively counter it causes balance problems. I thought this was a well-known maxim of game balance. I know the 3-repper setup is bad, my point is that the numbers for a single maxed-out AVer and the numbers of a single maxed-out tanker simply don't match up in a reasonable way, even without factoring in retreat/hardener based tactics. When you add in hardeners and tank mobility, any smart tanker isn't going to spend nearly enough time in a vulnerable state/bad position to get killed by single proto AV ever. The sheer TTK differences are huge! A tank has enough time to kill an AVer 10 times over in the time it would take the AVer to make a real dent in the tank. Even if facing 2-3 proto swarms, it'll take all of 10 seconds to kill all of them with a militia blaster turret. Either infantry need more effective anti-tank weaponry or tanks need to not have a 650DPS AR turret.


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