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Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
440
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Posted - 2014.02.04 05:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
After messing around on my tank alt for a bit, and then playing as militia anti-armor for a few matches, I have a theory: it is literally impossible to kill a Soma (much less a Madrugar) using the militia anti-armor fit. I don't mean last-hitting after a FG does the real work, but actually stalking and killing.
A little math to back this up:
880 dmg/volley * 7 volleys (2 in clip + 5 ammo) = 6160 damage
Assuming 100% time on target, with a lock-on time of 1.4 seconds and a reload time of 5 seconds, and no delays between shots or before/after reloading, we find that it takes (1.4*7) + 15 = 24.8 seconds to empty the clip, for (6160/24.8) = 248 damage/second.
Now, for the sake of argument and easy calculation, let's assume that every shot receives the armor damage bonus of 20%, giving us a total of 7392 damage, or a damage/second of 298.
In 24.8 seconds, a MLT heavy repper will repair 2480HP. If it doesn't kick in until after the second volley due to shields, it will heal for 2200. The Soma's natural HP is 5200. Therefore its EHP over these 24.8 seconds is 7400.
So, even with generous damage calculation (assuming that the shots against the Soma's shields also receive the 20% armor damage bonus), the total AV damage possible from a MLT anti-armor fit cannot EVER destroy a Soma with no non-default modules, even if it is absolutely stationary.
Prove me wrong, with videos or words! |
Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
440
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 18:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
SHANN da MAN wrote:You forgot to mention that in order to get 7 volleys you would have to be standing next to a Supply Depot or on a couple of Nanohives (a single nanohive doesn't resupply fast enough) or you would run out of Ammo.
Whoops forgot that I had a level of ammo capacity when I tested this.
I'm extra right, then. |
Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
445
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 21:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:What do you expect?
Back in the day we had MLT-Basic-ADV and even proto tanks being the black ops
Now milita could take out milta and basic too, basic/adv were used for taking out adv and mainly proto was because black ops tanks sucked
But certain players wanted tiercide so for example its what we have now with vehicles it seems
The STD tanks we have are the only tanks it looks like we will ever get but the AV weapons range from mlt to proto as do vehicle mods but the hull is std since you can easily have 5H/5L slots
So we have std tanks with proto mods/turrets going against proto suits/mods and AV weapons
Frankly with that hull and not being able to improve it do you really think i want it to die to basic AV?
I cant even improve the hull
If they do give us basic/adv/proto hulls then im fine for basic/adv/proto AV to handle each hull as it should but currently you cant have that because its not built like that
Blame tiercide
NO.
Some maths:
I can't check right now but I assume that Wiyrkomi swarm has the same lock and reload times as a MLT swarm, feel free to correct my math.
(220 * 6) damage/volley * 1.2 armor bonus * 6 ammo = 9504 damage , or 9504/(1.4*6 + 10) = 516 DPS over 18.4 seconds.
Factor in Prof V and 3x Complex damage mods and we get +15% and +26.4% damage, for a total of 516 * (1.414) = 729 DPS or 13438 damage.
I threw together a complex module Maddy fit with maxed core skills:
1x Basic Nitro
2x Complex heavy repper
1x Basic heavy repper
1x ADV blaster
Yes, I know, it's a weird fit but I'm trying to prove a point. Hardeners are an invincibility button against infantry but adding them in to this discussion is unhelpful since everyone will just say "omg hit them with hardeners down scrub". Hardeners aren't even necessary, though switching the basic repper for a basic hardener would massively improve this fit.
This gives a total of 487.5 armor rep/second, kicking after the second volley, for 487.5*17 seconds = 8287.5 armor repaired over one 6-volley swarm cycle.
So, net per cycle, the Maddy is at a deficit of -5150.5HP- not enough to kill it! Keep in mind that I'm using a very generous treatment of swarm damage. If the swarmer spends even 1 second behind cover when they could be locking on, etc, the Maddy will only repair more. If the swarmer is forced to take cover for just 8.2 seconds after a full cycle, the tank's armor will repair to full.
A second cycle would get the kill, but nitros mean that the tank can disengage before the SL can even be reloaded.
All of this is ignoring the fact that a blaster tank can kill any medium frame in < 3 seconds, often <1 second, which is at most two swarm volleys. If the tanker's not an idiot, they're going to shoot the guy with the proto swarms.
tl;dr MLT AV is not balanced against MLT tanks and PRO AV is not balanced against STD hulls with PRO modules. Tiercide is not to blame, good try though.
To those saying "use a FG", a MLT FG hits for 1200 with a 4-second charge, for 330 armor DPS within a clip. Factor in a 4-second reload and we end up with 3960/16 = 247.5DPS. Against an unfit soma, this gives the AVer a net damage gain of 147.5 damage/second, or 35.25 (36 because you can't fire most of a FG shot) seconds to kill an unfit MLT armor tank.
And no, it doesn't hold up better for proto AFGs. With 2x comp damage mods and prof V, the Ishy AFG does 685 damage/second to armor. Against the maddy described above, this gives a net gain of 208 damage/second, for a total of 25 seconds to kill the tank.
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Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
445
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 21:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Sorry, about half that.
Still, much more than any infantry AV option. Tanks as the only viable counter to tanks is unacceptable game balance, especially given the ease with which a slight tank superiority on one side can lead to denying any tanks called in by the other team after the first 30 seconds of the game. |
Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
446
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 21:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:Swarms are supposed to be light AV
They are TANKS
You should use teamwork
Get good
Did I miss one? I'm going a of answer my own post, because I can: Where does it say SL is for Light Armor? Nowhere that is where. It never has been confined to that role. So what if they are TANKS? This is just circular logic. Tanks are had to kill, because they are tanks, because they are hard to kill, etc. Everyone should use teamwork, this does not answer the question why killing tanks is a special case. This assumes that the AV'ers are bad, despite the mathematical argument presented. The idea that AV'ers are a special brand of moron that didn't exist prior to 1.7 is just ridiculous.
Also, I'll pick up this torch: it should not require teamwork to kill a tank of an equivalent module tier to your equipment. Teamwork by dedicated AVers against 1 tank should all but guarantee a kill, much in the same way that infantry teamwork does against lone infantry or tank teamwork against one tank. Without AV teamwork, a smart tanker should easily have time to retreat, but if the tanker makes significant mistakes and sticks around too long in a bad position, they should die.
Why?
Because tanks require one person operate. Don't give me that small turret BS- I haven't seen a small turret outside of the LP tanks this whole patch. If it requires two AVers to effectively drive off one tank, the AVers' team is now essentially fighting 14v15. With 5 tanks of the field, this problem becomes only more obvious.
This has been Nyain's San/Chan's stomp strategy in recent games that I've played with and against them- 3-4 of their squad members call in armor tanks and wreck the enemy in the initial push. When the enemy switches to AV, the rest of the squad is waiting in GK.0 logis to go 15/0. I've also seen them overheat their blaster tanks, jump out and gun down AVers in their proto logi suits, then get back in and repeat, because they have no fear that their tanks will be destroyed while sitting there unmanned with no active modules. The vast majority of these ambushes ended better than 70-0 or 40-0 in Nyain's favor. Tanks are OP and tank squads are gamebreaking, and their use by Nyain is perhaps the clearest affirmation of this.
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Awry Barux
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
453
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 17:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
Your using a 3 repper set up, against sustained damage it will pop, 2 proto swarmers will kill it outright as it will do more damage than it can rep back and this i have tested against generally the hardener is used but its on for so long and off for so long leading to retreat tactics
Tanks now require sustained fire or a massive alpha strike
The fact that it takes TWO proto swarmers is a problem though! I'm not asking for tanks to insta-pop like they did pre-1.7, but it's patently obvious now that the team with the most tanks on the field has a massive advantage. In a game of fixed team sizes, something that one character can pilot that requires more than one character to effectively counter it causes balance problems. I thought this was a well-known maxim of game balance.
I know the 3-repper setup is bad, my point is that the numbers for a single maxed-out AVer and the numbers of a single maxed-out tanker simply don't match up in a reasonable way, even without factoring in retreat/hardener based tactics. When you add in hardeners and tank mobility, any smart tanker isn't going to spend nearly enough time in a vulnerable state/bad position to get killed by single proto AV ever.
The sheer TTK differences are huge! A tank has enough time to kill an AVer 10 times over in the time it would take the AVer to make a real dent in the tank. Even if facing 2-3 proto swarms, it'll take all of 10 seconds to kill all of them with a militia blaster turret.
Either infantry need more effective anti-tank weaponry or tanks need to not have a 650DPS AR turret. |
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