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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1765
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Posted - 2014.01.29 12:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP we all know you hate assault drop ships, since you tried to remove them, but really? Why does the assault drop ship hull have to cost 322k? Is a dropship really that much better than a soma? Or a gunnlogi? A dropship hull cost 4x more than the vehicle that will eventually kill it because tanks rule the sky not dropships.
Regular dropships are affordable but you can't even use those, they don't give you WP like a tank, or hell even an LAV can, blueberries can't even aim with the dropship guns because when the dropship moves the guns freeze and/or instantly jerk forward.
Dropships are so much harder to use than a tank, and for the skill required to use one they aren't that much rewarding. A proto rail can two shot any dropship any day. If anything touches a dropship and by touch I mean poke, massage, caress, the damn thing turns into a fiery ball of death. If any projectile hits you the dropship will tip and fall to its doom, and then there is the new jihad 767 where a player takes a MLT dropship and rams it into yours to cause it to tip and crash. You can't even use a dropship in most matches without having a rail tank on the redline cheap shotting you.
CCP a couple of things need to happen or eventually you won't have pilots left, regardless of anything the impact damage and the destabalization of dropships needs to be severely reduced. From here either or, or both, these should happen assault dropship hull reduced to 70K per hull, or a reduction to rail gun damage, and definitely its range because really? Can my dropship turn around and destroy a gunny?
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
95
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Posted - 2014.01.29 14:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds a little extreme for a change, but +1. Something needs to be done.
FAME
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CamClarke
0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3
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Posted - 2014.01.29 15:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
As a person who's recently started flying ADSs (about a month now), I agree wholeheartedly on almost every point. As fragile and difficult to master as they are, they are ridiculously costly to use because at some point, someone, somehow, will usually bring at least one of your dropships down in any given match unless you stay at the flight ceiling the entire time. I believe things would be better if:
1. Costs were slashed to make ADS piloting viable as a permanent, profitable role. Given tanks' prices right now, I agree that 70k is right about where they should be, not including mods.
2. Collision damage were reduced. Love taps are literally more devastating than damage modded proto rail turrets.
3. Large railgun turrets effectiveness were nerfed in some fashion. I believe implementing falloff on large rails is the best option, if it is made severe enough that it at least forces them out of the redline if they want to do anything useful, which not only improves our survivability, but gives bluedots and ourselves the opportunity to fight back. Also, this should drastically reduce vehicle call-in destruction.
4. I don't typically have gunners, but if these problems with passenger turrets are true, that is a pretty serious concern. Fix it.
5. For the benefit of the AV players, swarm launchers need a buff. Right now, I mostly just hover, laugh, and rain missiles on them unless there's at least 3 of them. Given our fairly low effective engagement altitude and the fact that, once fired, they continue to track you, it should just be a straight damage buff (as opposed to a range buff) to make them a legitimate threat in your own range. Forges are currently fine against ADS pilots and are effective at chasing me off.
I will, however, disagree on the destabilization. Its primary purpose seems to be to make AV players harder to hit while you're under fire, which is necessary so we simply don't walk all over them, and its secondary purpose is to throw off our control to give the AV players a better chance to make followup shots. Destablization should be left as-is for balance purposes, otherwise ADS piloting would be too easy.
In every respect beyond those listed above, I feel assault dropships are in a good place. In the hands of a skilled pilot, they can perform admirably at both anti-vehicle and anti-infantry, and can provide a number of useful services to the bluedots below.
tl;dr: Reduce prices, nerf large rails, nerf collision damage, fix passenger turrets, buff swarms and ADS piloting will be balanced for both sides. |
Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
95
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 15:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
CamClarke wrote:As a person who's recently started flying ADSs (about a month now), I agree wholeheartedly on almost every point. As fragile and difficult to master as they are, they are ridiculously costly to use because at some point, someone, somehow, will usually bring at least one of your dropships down in any given match unless you stay at the flight ceiling the entire time. I believe things would be better if:
1. Costs were slashed to make ADS piloting viable as a permanent, profitable role. Given tanks' prices right now, I agree that 70k is right about where they should be, not including mods.
2. Collision damage were reduced. Love taps are literally more devastating than damage modded proto rail turrets.
3. Large railgun turrets' effectiveness were nerfed in some fashion. I believe implementing falloff on large rails is the best option, if it is made severe enough that it at least forces them out of the redline if they want to do anything useful, which not only improves our survivability, but gives bluedots and ourselves the opportunity to fight back. Also, this should drastically reduce vehicle call-in destruction.
4. I don't typically have gunners, but if these problems with passenger turrets are true, that is a pretty serious concern. Fix it.
5. For the benefit of the AV players, swarm launchers need a buff. Right now, I mostly just hover, laugh, and rain missiles on them unless there's at least 3 of them. Given our fairly low effective engagement altitude and the fact that, once fired, they continue to track you, it should just be a straight damage buff (as opposed to a range buff) to make them a legitimate threat in our own range. Forges are currently fine against ADS pilots and are effective at chasing me off.
I will, however, disagree on the destabilization. Its primary purpose seems to be to make AV players harder to hit while you're under fire, which is necessary so we simply don't walk all over them, and its secondary purpose is to throw off our control to give the AV players a better chance to make followup shots. Destablization should be left as-is for balance purposes, otherwise ADS piloting would be too easy.
In every respect beyond those listed above, I feel assault dropships are in a good place. In the hands of a skilled pilot, they can perform admirably at both anti-vehicle and anti-infantry, and can provide a number of useful services to the bluedots below.
tl;dr: Reduce prices, nerf large rails, nerf collision damage, fix passenger turrets, buff swarms and ADS piloting will be balanced for both sides.
Excellent points! I don't feel any of those changes would result in OP use.
I especially agree with the destabilization, it is purely essential.
FAME
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
788
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Posted - 2014.01.29 15:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Prices are fine. My fully proto-ed out fit only costs 500k, or about 2 games, and my ADV fit (which is just as good except against tanks) only costs 400k. You shouldn't be losing dropships more than every 2 games and even still, if prices were dramatically reduced, we'd be having the same problems we're having with tanks currently.
WPs are awarded for supporting your team. As such, killing people nets very few WP compared to logistics. Most dropship pilots usually average about 10 or so kills per match, meaning that you'll have to supplement WP another way. I usually drops some uplinks in high places, but do things that make you useful other than killing people and you should make decent WPs.
I don't usually run side turrets so I can't speak for their effectiveness or bugs.
Plenty of people have learned how to fly, it just takes a lot of patience and practice (and ISK). Resources like Judge Rhadamanthus' videos and the people at 1st Airborne are great for advice and tips. I'm usually happy to help anyone when I'm on.
Rails are broken, but it's just their range. They're meant to take out tanks, so their damage is fine (hardeners can help take a few hits and afterburners are great for dodging). The problem with rails is their range and being able to shoot from the redline. I've proposed a 350m effective range with drop off out to 450m, which would keep rails role as long range anti-vehicle but limit their effectiveness in the redline.
The knock back from infantry AV is the only thing keeping swarms (and forges to some extent) as usable AV verse dropships. I can out DPS any and every swarm launcher suit on my least tanked fitting, the only thing keeping me from killing every swarmer is having to take time to realign after I'm hit by their missiles. Same for forges to a slightly lesser degree.
It's pretty easy to avoid enemy dropships trying to ram you. You just need to keep situational awareness. They're much easier to deal with than jihad jeeps with tanks.
And by the way, missiles can stop shields from regening, I do it all the time (check the sig).
TL;DR: Price is fine, support you team for WP not just killing people, side turrets are probably bugged, put time into practicing flying and get help from other pilots, rails just need a range nerf, knock back is the only thing keeping infantry AV threatening, situational awareness will save you a lot.
In short, the only changes need relating to dropships are a reduction in range to rails and fixing side turrets. Everything else seems fine to me, I have no complaints. Dropships are probably one of the most balanced aspects of the game, currently.
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 2; Other DS: 29 Gêå1; Tanks: 31 Gêå3
1/26
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
95
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 16:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Prices are fine. My fully proto-ed out fit only costs 500k, or about 2 games, and my ADV fit (which is just as good except against tanks) only costs 400k. You shouldn't be losing dropships more than every 2 games and even still, if prices were dramatically reduced, we'd be having the same problems we're having with tanks currently.
WPs are awarded for supporting your team. As such, killing people nets very few WP compared to logistics. Most dropship pilots usually average about 10 or so kills per match, meaning that you'll have to supplement WP another way. I usually drops some uplinks in high places, but do things that make you useful other than killing people and you should make decent WPs.
I don't usually run side turrets so I can't speak for their effectiveness or bugs.
Plenty of people have learned how to fly, it just takes a lot of patience and practice (and ISK). Resources like Judge Rhadamanthus' videos and the people at 1st Airborne are great for advice and tips. I'm usually happy to help anyone when I'm on.
Rails are broken, but it's just their range. They're meant to take out tanks, so their damage is fine (hardeners can help take a few hits and afterburners are great for dodging). The problem with rails is their range and being able to shoot from the redline. I've proposed a 350m effective range with drop off out to 450m, which would keep rails role as long range anti-vehicle but limit their effectiveness in the redline.
The knock back from infantry AV is the only thing keeping swarms (and forges to some extent) as usable AV verse dropships. I can out DPS any and every swarm launcher suit on my least tanked fitting, the only thing keeping me from killing every swarmer is having to take time to realign after I'm hit by their missiles. Same for forges to a slightly lesser degree.
It's pretty easy to avoid enemy dropships trying to ram you. You just need to keep situational awareness. They're much easier to deal with than jihad jeeps with tanks.
And by the way, missiles can stop shields from regening, I do it all the time (check the sig).
TL;DR: Price is fine, support you team for WP not just killing people, side turrets are probably bugged, put time into practicing flying and get help from other pilots, rails just need a range nerf, knock back is the only thing keeping infantry AV threatening, situational awareness will save you a lot.
In short, the only changes need relating to dropships are a reduction in range to rails and fixing side turrets. Everything else seems fine to me, I have no complaints. Dropships are probably one of the most balanced aspects of the game, currently.
Good counter points. Against proto forge, do you just try to stay away? Or do you recall. My ADS runs all advanced and a good forge on a tall tower has a great chance in destroying me, as the first hit will knock out my shields, and as a python that's all I have. What ship variant do you fly? What are some tactics you use against a max sp forge player?
FAME
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4541
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Posted - 2014.01.29 16:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
I would like to add to this thread the need for the ability to pitch the Assault Dropship turret in first person, and not just in third.
Being able to aim up and down while in first person would go a long way toward making these aircraft less arduous to use.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
97
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 16:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:I would like to add to this thread the need for the ability to pitch the Assault Dropship turret in first person, and not just in third.
Being able to aim up and down while in first person would go a long way toward making these aircraft less arduous to use. Agree, but in the long run would probably get you killed. In that mode you are much more stabile, which has great disadvantages.
But it would be interesting if you could press a button to enter 1st person, auto stabilize, and gain pure control of Turning and turret control. Would that be OP?
FAME
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
788
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 16:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote:[Words] I have two fittings:
Speed Tank (my most used):
- -: 1x Complex Light Shield Ex, 1x Enh Heavy Shield Ex, 1x Complex Afterburner (can change Cplx Light ex > Basic heavy ex and Cplx AB > Basic AB for 200 more shield, but I like the complex AB) -: Cplx PG T: Any
3k Shield HP
Usage: Ambushing, typically get in, hit hard, get out. The AB is great for dodging virtually anything from swarms to rails and forges, and I can take 2 STD rails and only lose a little armor. When dealing with forges, it's best to do multiple strafes as you'll regen faster than they will, though I typically try and avoid hard hitting forges in this fit. Just avoid being seen as you approach, either form above, below, or around a corner. Not my go to fit for this situation.
Active Tanked (just for this situation):
- -: 2x Complex Hardener, 1x Basic heavy shield Ex -: Cplx PG T: Any
2.2k Unhardened, ~6k w/ 1 hardener (lasts 1min on, 15sec off w/ skills), ~12k w/ both (30 on/ 45 off); requires shield fitting lvl4, but you might get away with downgrading the hardeners, it will just take longer to recharge.
This is the fit I'd which to in this situation. This thing has won against a double damage modded, prof 4 Ishukone AFG (with some fancy flying I might add) in just the situation you've described (on a tower, he was rail tanking as well, but jumped out to fight me off). This thing is tanky enough to deal with virtually anything anyone can throw at it (for a while).
However, it has serious drawbacks. Firstly being the regen time. Though 15sec is a pretty short time, if any thing hits you in that time, you're pretty much done for. This is compounded by the issue of mobility. Despite it being and ADS, it's still pretty sluggish, and if you're caught in a bad situation with your hardener down (or a strong rail targets you, even with hardeners), it's difficult to get away. I use this when dealing with one or two pesky forgers, not everyday flying.
One tip that is vital against fighting forges is flying over their head and orbiting. With and after burner, you can fly almost vertical and orbit very rapidly around them, making it almost impossible to be shot at while keeping them in your sights (and immobile as they try to track you). Flying over their heads makes them have to turn all the way around and lose sight of you for a moment.
Also, if they're on a tower, remember that they can't see directly over and below the ledge. I typically dive close to the building, circle around and come straight up from another angle. Try to imagine what they can and cannot see and how their weapon functions.
If you ask me, speed tanking is the superior method. I have 3k shield hp at all time and can dodge virtually any second shot from any weapon or vehicle, the only limiting factor is my AB recharge, but that's like 7.5 sec. It's also vital to dogfights, both for attacking and getting away.
I'll be on during the weekend (at school now), so join the 1st Airborne chat and squad up with me sometime.
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 2; Other DS: 29 Gêå1; Tanks: 31 Gêå3
1/26
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
Omega Elite Mercs INC.
97
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 17:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote: [words]
Thanks, I will check the 1st for you. I frequent that channel from time to time.
I think my ADS has an Eh heavy shield extender, Eh shield hardener, Eh after burner ( I prefer this over complex, don't need that much boost), and complex pg.
With missile turret.
I will try out your double hardener version, but speed to me is more important than a double hardener. But as you said, the tank fit is more situational than flexible. I am working up my skills in vehicles. Currently I am working to XT missiles and fitting optimization. I can't remember what my shield optimization is at, 3 maybe.
FAME
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
788
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Posted - 2014.01.29 17:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote: [words]
Thanks, I will check the 1st for you. I frequent that channel from time to time. I think my ADS has an Eh heavy shield extender, Eh shield hardener, Eh after burner ( I prefer this over complex, don't need that much boost), and complex pg. With missile turret. I will try out your double hardener version, but speed to me is more important than a double hardener. But as you said, the tank fit is more situational than flexible. I am working up my skills in vehicles. Currently I am working to XT missiles and fitting optimization. I can't remember what my shield optimization is at, 3 maybe. Before you invest any more SP, use this vehicle fitting tool to plan fits you might want. Personally, I don't have any turret fitting skills and still have no problems with my fits.
Also, I don't like single hardener fits, they're too weak with out the hardener on and take too long to recharge. That's just me though.
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 2; Other DS: 29 Gêå1; Tanks: 31 Gêå3
1/26
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4543
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 17:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:I would like to add to this thread the need for the ability to pitch the Assault Dropship turret in first person, and not just in third.
Being able to aim up and down while in first person would go a long way toward making these aircraft less arduous to use. Agree, but in the long run would probably get you killed. In that mode you are much more stabile, which has great disadvantages. But it would be interesting if you could press a button to enter 1st person, auto stabilize, and gain pure control of Turning and turret control. Would that be OP? How would being able to pitch the turret in first person have any disadvantages? It would be exactly the same as doing so in 3rd person, except with aiming the turret directly. It would still snap back to the "center position" when you let go of the stick, just like it does in first-person.
What I'm effectively saying is that we should have a workable "cockpit view" with the ability to actually use the turret in it. I would personally prefer to be able to fly in first-person for the most part rather than third.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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CamClarke
0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6
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Posted - 2014.01.29 17:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Prices are fine. My fully proto-ed out fit only costs 500k, or about 2 games, and my ADV fit (which is just as good except against tanks) only costs 400k. You shouldn't be losing dropships more than every 2 games and even still, if prices were dramatically reduced, we'd be having the same problems we're having with tanks currently. Maybe I'm just butthurt about how there seem to be constant redline rail tanks literally just watching me fly, waiting for me to drop down just low enough for them to hit me. Their prevalence is so great currently that I've actually been having a hell of a time just trying to land on all but the tallest structures long enough to drop an uplink for the team, or if there is a lack of suitable cover, to even land and recall. I end up stuck with few WP if I can't throw down some uplinks, which leaves me with a poor payout, so often it takes me around four matches to make the 370k for one ADS. Probably doesn't help that I'm usually the only one in the sky on my team.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:It's pretty easy to avoid enemy dropships trying to ram you. You just need to keep situational awareness. They're much easier to deal with than jihad jeeps with tanks. Absolutely, it's just silly that if you and another ADS are having a shootout in the air and just happen to have a passionate midair kiss trying to get closer for easier aiming one or both dropships will explode.
Varjac wrote:What ship variant do you fly? What are some tactics you use against a max sp forge player? Python here. Mash light shield booster, hardener, get the hell out of that area with evasive maneuvers. If it's a big map, continue doing my stuff elsewhere. Smaller maps, land behind cover and recall. I'm simply not pro enough yet to deal with a really good forger, especially on a tower. My skills aren't high enough to effectively use a double hardener fit, so if I take a heavy hit I boost it back up, harden, and run away.
Mobius Wyvern wrote:I would like to add to this thread the need for the ability to pitch the Assault Dropship turret in first person, and not just in third. Totally slipped my mind, would love to be able to do that. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
8661
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 17:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm not really sure I can judge the effects of this buff on non-railgun AV because out of the thirty odd dropships I've lost every single one has been to a rail weapon.
ZATARA CARRIES US ALL
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
MAG Raven
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killer carrot top
Eternal Beings Proficiency V.
10
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Posted - 2014.01.29 18:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Turret fitting options dont apply there bonuses to the turret fyi |
Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
127
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Posted - 2014.01.29 20:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
By the way, the ADS was almost removed because the current condition of vehicles is a total revamp. They scaled it down to basics and simply didn't consider that normal dropships are basically pointless, in contrast to ADS.
By the way, I want normal dropships to either get gunner AI or allow me to park them in the air (Militia can already stabilize automatically) and man my turrets myself. It would be sub-optimal, but still a nice ability to have. Actually, it could be useful if there was dropship cloaking. Imagine sitting invisibly in the sky and shooting at the redberries who are trying to storm an objective. |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
314
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Posted - 2014.01.29 20:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's a T2 hull, so no. Be more careful with it. |
D legendary hero
Ultramarine Corp
1381
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 20:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:CCP we all know you hate assault drop ships, since you tried to remove them, but really? Why does the assault drop ship hull have to cost 322k? Is a dropship really that much better than a soma? Or a gunnlogi? A dropship hull cost 4x more than the vehicle that will eventually kill it because tanks rule the sky not dropships.
Regular dropships are affordable but you can't even use those, they don't give you WP like a tank, or hell even an LAV can, blueberries can't even aim with the dropship guns because when the dropship moves the guns freeze and/or instantly jerk forward.
Dropships are so much harder to use than a tank, and for the skill required to use one they aren't that much rewarding. A proto rail can two shot any dropship any day. If anything touches a dropship and by touch I mean poke, massage, caress, the damn thing turns into a fiery ball of death. If any projectile hits you the dropship will tip and fall to its doom, and then there is the new jihad 767 where a player takes a MLT dropship and rams it into yours to cause it to tip and crash. You can't even use a dropship in most matches without having a rail tank on the redline cheap shotting you.
CCP a couple of things need to happen or eventually you won't have pilots left, regardless of anything the impact damage and the destabalization of dropships needs to be severely reduced. From here either or, or both, these should happen assault dropship hull reduced to 70K per hull, or a reduction to rail gun damage, and definitely its range to 250-400m because really? Can my dropship turn around and destroy a gunny my missiles can't even do enough damage to stop him from repairing... this Equals. YES!
I petition to have assault dropships cost only 1.5x more than a militia. Since assault dropships are essentially STD vehicles.
Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
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Bat Shard0
D3LTA FORC3
26
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Posted - 2014.01.30 00:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
The price of AD must be lowered, Yes they are much agile than non assault version, but have less slots. Price like 150-180k for hull is fine I think.
One more thing. Dropships at all need some new weapon, which can be used against tanks mostly. It can be bomb with 2k damage and 5m splash range and dropship can fly with only one of this babyes, or it could be a one shot of wall of non guided swarms - let say 10 with the same damage like missile turets.
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Squagga
The State Protectorate
84
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Posted - 2014.01.30 01:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have a Python and I want to know why does it cost so much when it is so easy to get shot down? Up there in the air there are so many angles to be shot from. So either put some more modules on that bastard or lower the cost. Why does this have to be so damn difficult?
Reloading, the silent killer.
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1776
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Posted - 2014.01.30 02:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Squagga wrote:I have a Python and I want to know why does it cost so much when it is so easy to get shot down? Up there in the air there are so many angles to be shot from. So either put some more modules on that bastard or lower the cost. Why does this have to be so damn difficult?
CCP does not like Assault dropships, they tried to remove them. But because the community said to keep them they got back at us by making it expensive to be a pilot . The biggest problem is the range of the rail gun, a well positioned rail gun can continue to shoot you not only from the redline but while you are also in the flight ceiling, the same applies for forge guns but they have a limit to where they can no longer see you. This doesn't just affect dropships in general but it is a balance issue for AV and other vehicles as well. As for the price, wether or not it is intentional by CCP it is very very unfair to pilots. 70-120K for the hull is much more reasonable than 322K discounting modules which can bump it to well over 500K.
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Auris Lionesse
Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance
94
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Posted - 2014.01.30 04:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
assault dropships need a nerf |
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