DUST Search - Racial Weapons Seem Counter Intuitive

Hagintora wrote:

Summ Dude wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like you're just sorta making a lot of assumptions here. No, breach is not defined by lower range. I don't know where you got that from. Breach weapons do tend to have a slower RoF and more damage per shot, though. Which holds true to the RR. And how exactly are a charge shot and burst fire the same, at all? One requires no firing for some time, then massive alpha damage, the other is multiple spaced rapid strikes. They're actually almost opposites, in a sense. So yea, I really don't get where you're getting your information from.

Not assumptions, observations. Except for Breach Range, and I stand corrected. Charge and Burst can be used to achieve the same effect through different means. While Charge requires time to build up it delivers a high Alpha if it hits, giving an inherent downside. 3-5 round "Bursts" also have an inherent downide of accuracy; you only do the full damge if all rounds hit your target. Two different methods achieving similar overall effects, based on differing racial tech.

Again, not assumptions, but observations.

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Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 179	Posted - 2014.01.27 04:52:00 - [1] - Quote Currently we have: Caldari - Breach Amarr - Tactical Minmitar - Burst Gallente - Assault But when looking at descriptions of how these different weapon types operate in game, I'm suddenly confused as to why they were paired with the Races as they are. Breach, as I understand it, is a low rate of fire, high hip spread weapon that is perfect for dealing with opponents in Short-Close Range. Not exactly an apt description of the Caldari Rail Rifle, which seems like it would more at home under the Tactical heading. Tactical is a single fire weapon with high accuracy designed to take out opponents at Long Range. Seems like the Scrambler Rifle at first, but then why does it have a charge function? A function that would seem more appropriate to a weapon with Burst capabilities. Burst is a weapon designed to fire 3-5 rounds bursts (or potentially a charged shot, as mentioned above), giving it a higher accuracy at Mid-Long Range, as well as a decent Alpha in comparison to the other weapon types. But it is associated with weapons that have the highest RPM in the game, something that seems more appropriate under the Assault heading. Assault is a weapon designed for sustained fully automatic fire that seems good for Short-Mid Range. Again, this seems like it works for the AR, except that it has the shortest range of all the rifles and would make more sense as a Breach weapon rather than an Assault. It would seem to make more sense if the weapons were switched around: Caldari - Tactical Amarr - Burst Minmitar - Assault Gallente - Breach It just doesn't make sense to me that each Race would intentionally not focus on what they are clearly the best at. Caldari is best on range (Tactical), Amarr is best on Charged Alpha Shots (Burst), Minmitar are best at spraying a large amount of rounds down range (Assault), and Gallente are best at the up close and personal fights (Breach). This even appears to apply to the other weapons as well. Shotgun, clearly a Breach Type Weapon. SMG, clearly an Assault Type Weapon. Even the Pistols seem like children that were switched at birth. Why does the Ion Pistol have a charge function, and not the Scrambler Pistol? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the Ion Pistol function more like the Breach ScP, and give the charge function to the Standard ScP? And since the Bolt Pistol is a Caldari Weapon (and Caldari seem like they should be Tactical), wouldn't make more sense to give that insane headshot multiplier to that? I'm just not following the logic of the current setup.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8570	Posted - 2014.01.27 05:04:00 - [2] - Quote Your problem is that you're trying to make the weapons fit in a category in a very strict sense. Why shouldn't a tactical be a able to to charge? is it because the Gallente imitation (tactical AR) can't that you assume that it should apply to the original (SCR)? A charge is not the same as a burst. Nothing says that a breach has to have low range. As long as it has low ROF and high damage, it fits. The rail rifle is automatic, therefore cannot be tactical. I'm pretty sure burst is a burst no matter what the RPM is. I see nothing wrong with each race having adding their own racial flavors to these archetypes. I'm pretty sure the pistols and other weapons aren't meant to fit the same breach/tactical/burst/assault paradigms anyway. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 179	Posted - 2014.01.27 05:45:00 - [3] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Your problem is that you're trying to make the weapons fit in a category in a very strict sense. Why shouldn't a tactical be a able to to charge? is it because the Gallente imitation (tactical AR) can't that you assume that it should apply to the original (SCR)? A charge is not the same as a burst. Nothing says that a breach has to have low range. As long as it has low ROF and high damage, it fits. The rail rifle is automatic, therefore cannot be tactical. I'm pretty sure burst is a burst no matter what the RPM is. I see nothing wrong with each race having adding their own racial flavors to these archetypes. I'm pretty sure the pistols and other weapons aren't meant to fit the same breach/tactical/burst/assault paradigms anyway. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be racial variants to each of the weapon types, I'm saying that I don't understand why the races have specialized in the types that they do. In my opinion (and I don't claim any authority other than that) a charge shot and a burst shot are essentially the same thing, they just use different methods to achieve the same effect. If the Amarr and the Caldari both use a Charge Function, and the Minmitar and the Gallente both fire 3-5 rounds, they all can be said to have a burst effect, just with different racial flavors thrown in. And I might be mistaken on this (please correct me if I'm wrong), but don't all Breach Weapons have a lower range than the their counterparts? Made up for in the fact that they have a higher damage output? If Burst is a Burst no matter what the RPM, then why does the Burst AR have a higher rate of fire than any other AR? I was trying to look at the function of the primary weapons in and of themselves. And the Charge Function of the Scrambler Rifle seems to fit more into the category of Burst than it does Tactical. The Minmitar appear to specialize in high rate of fire weapons, which fits more into the category of Assault than it does Burst. Caldari seem to focus on range, which fits more into the category of Tactical than it does Breach. And since Gallente have the shortest range of all the races they would seem better off focusing on Breach rather than Assault. I'm pretty sure that the other weapons also fit into these paradigms as well. Breach/Burst/Assault ScP, Burst HMG, Breach Shotgun. Do those weapons function in any way other than how Breach/Burst/Assault are described?
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 181	Posted - 2014.01.29 01:56:00 - [4] - Quote The more I look at the threads about balance in the forums, the more I feel that people are trying to make a fist and flatten their hand at the same time. How can you balance a rifle that does the highest damage AND has the longest range (Rail Rifle)? By slowing down it's ROF? The rate of fire is already pretty slow, any more and it might as well be semi-automatic (Tactical). I mean really, if what I'm saying is going to worsen the balance already present in the game, by all means let me know. But from the looks of it, changing the concepts of the races (Assault, Burst, Tactcal, Breach) would actually help bring the weapons more in line.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1169	Posted - 2014.01.29 04:19:00 - [5] - Quote Amarr + Burst = Terrible. The Amarr are all about sustained operation. Giving them burst capability would be a waste. What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage is more lethal.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 182	Posted - 2014.01.29 04:37:00 - [6] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Amarr + Burst = Terrible. The Amarr are all about sustained operation. Giving them burst capability would be a waste. I'm not saying that the Amarr should be given Burst capabilities (weapon variants not withstanding), I'm saying that they already have them. I'm saying that Charge and Burst can almost be used synonomously. That I think that CCP is using the wrong variant for each of races primary specialty.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1743	Posted - 2014.01.29 04:55:00 - [7] - Quote The Amarr are a precise people. Everything has to be just right. To them, every shot has to peirce into the souls of their enemies and cleanse them of their sins, this is why they use a high damage tactical weapon such as the Scrambler Rifle as their Main Battle Rifle. This is also why their pistol has a headshot bonus, it rewards precision, and is very befitting of their culture. The Laser Rifle has absolutely perfect accuracy and precision, also in line with their culture. A burst weapon implies that some shots might miss, so they are made up for with other shots. This is not inline with their culture. They would not use a weapon such as this as their MBR. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire MAG ~ Seryi Volk Executive Response
Summ Dude OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 153	Posted - 2014.01.29 05:08:00 - [8] - Quote Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like you're just sorta making a lot of assumptions here. No, breach is not defined by lower range. I don't know where you got that from. Breach weapons do tend to have a slower RoF and more damage per shot, though. Which holds true to the RR. And how exactly are a charge shot and burst fire the same, at all? One requires no firing for some time, then massive alpha damage, the other is multiple spaced rapid strikes. They're actually almost opposites, in a sense. So yea, I really don't get where you're getting your information from. Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 182	Posted - 2014.01.29 05:50:00 - [9] - Quote Summ Dude wrote: Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like you're just sorta making a lot of assumptions here. No, breach is not defined by lower range. I don't know where you got that from. Breach weapons do tend to have a slower RoF and more damage per shot, though. Which holds true to the RR. And how exactly are a charge shot and burst fire the same, at all? One requires no firing for some time, then massive alpha damage, the other is multiple spaced rapid strikes. They're actually almost opposites, in a sense. So yea, I really don't get where you're getting your information from. Not assumptions, observations. Except for Breach Range, and I stand corrected. Charge and Burst can be used to achieve the same effect through different means. While Charge requires time to build up it delivers a high Alpha if it hits, giving an inherent downside. 3-5 round "Bursts" also have an inherent downide of accuracy; you only do the full damge if all rounds hit your target. Two different methods achieving similar overall effects, based on differing racial tech. Again, not assumptions, but observations.
Summ Dude OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 153	Posted - 2014.01.29 05:57:00 - [10] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Summ Dude wrote: Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like you're just sorta making a lot of assumptions here. No, breach is not defined by lower range. I don't know where you got that from. Breach weapons do tend to have a slower RoF and more damage per shot, though. Which holds true to the RR. And how exactly are a charge shot and burst fire the same, at all? One requires no firing for some time, then massive alpha damage, the other is multiple spaced rapid strikes. They're actually almost opposites, in a sense. So yea, I really don't get where you're getting your information from. Not assumptions, observations. Except for Breach Range, and I stand corrected. Charge and Burst can be used to achieve the same effect through different means. While Charge requires time to build up it delivers a high Alpha if it hits, giving an inherent downside. 3-5 round "Bursts" also have an inherent downide of accuracy; you only do the full damge if all rounds hit your target. Two different methods achieving similar overall effects, based on differing racial tech. Again, not assumptions, but observations. By that logic every single weapon can be considered to "achieve the same effect". Because they all cause damage. Just in different ways with different firing methods. But that's of course very silly. Differing firing mechanics are different, not the same just because they both hurt their target. Not just a laymen, but the laymen.

Nemo Nauticlone Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 96	Posted - 2014.01.29 06:15:00 - [11] - Quote To give this an EVE parallel (because to be fair all of these weapons are based on EVE tech/weapons) Caldari use rails for sniping at extreme to mid ranges and missles for high alpha low RoF at all ranges Amarr use either pulse lasers (fully automatic lasers) or standard lasers (think giant laser rifle) that does the best damage at all ranges comparatively (especially with Scorch ammo) though it is preferred to use these at mid to short range Minmatar use either Autocannons (giant ass HMG) for short range, or Artillery (self explanitory) for ranges that can only be matched(rarely if you are doing it right) by the Caldari railguns. AC's have a super high RoF but a relatively low alpa whereas AT has an insane alpha damage and a really low RoF Gallente use blasters (giant glorified shotguns) that are superb at close range with an average RoF and a slighty higher than the Minnie AC's with comparable effective ranges. In a nutshell that is the barebones weaponry of New Eden, with a few variations (torps, drones, HAM's, etc) and the weaponry we have in dust is, In Theory, a miniaturized version of those weapons. Based on that logic there really aren't really any major problems lore wise with the game in my opinion. Nemo the Necromantic Nautilord (YAY FOR LOGIBROS!!!) A.K.A. CEO of NCM


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