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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.01.25 16:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Please comment. Currently, proto shield extenders take up 11 pg and 54 cpu and give less hp than basic armor plates. They do however have better resistances to the best guns in the game (combat and rail rifle), however, to counter that there are flux grenades which have a massive explosive radius. I personally believe that they should have their pg requirements reduced, as they cost so much more cpu than their armor counterparts to have only one less pg than them, but I am also biased as I run a minmitar scout and need the extra pg for fittings :P. Please tell me what you guys think.
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
240
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Posted - 2014.01.25 16:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Extenders? Yes, a few points less and a few less CPU while boosting the hp granted by them should bring them in line with armour plates.
<---armour tanker in a gallente the suit.
I don't want to outdate ferroscales, but I think that the cpu is fine, but the pg is way over the top. I think that the basic and adv shield extenders need a boost to be equal in the amount away from proto shields how adv and basic plates are away from proto plates. Also, ferroscales need a slight buff, along with shield extenders (by slight i mean like 5-10 hp max). But shields should also have much better shield recharge delay on min and cal suits
Just my opinion.
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
240
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Posted - 2014.01.25 16:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:shield mods are supposed to be shield heavy, and armor mods are supposed to be pg heavy. Thusly, armor tankers have more pg on their suits, and shield tankers have more cpu.
So reduce pg use on extenders, give them a health buff (44, 66, 88 imo) and for God's sake, un nerf the CalLogi's cpu. Especially with the huge changes in 1.8 coming.
Agree 100%, except then buff ferroscales up to equal with them
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
240
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Posted - 2014.01.25 20:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:
If they should be compared to anything it should be reactive plates, as they too have innate regen capabilities.
Or you could compare it to armor plates on any suit with equipment slots for a armor hive that will rep you faster than shields, and doesn't stop when you are hit by a bullet
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
242
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Please comment. Currently, proto shield extenders take up 11 pg and 54 cpu and give less hp than basic armor plates. They do however have better resistances to the best guns in the game (combat and rail rifle), however, to counter that there are flux grenades which have a massive explosive radius. I personally believe that they should have their pg requirements reduced, as they cost so much more cpu than their armor counterparts to have only one less pg than them, but I am also biased as I run a minmitar scout and need the extra pg for fittings :P. Please tell me what you guys think. Shield extenders should stay the same exept Enhanced => 44hp. But Plates need to change : Hp value stay the same BUT they all got 5% of speed penality. (More intresting to fit complex that takes 12 PG). Ferroscales and Reactive should cost the same PG/CPU than Regular plates. Ferroscales don't have speed penality but have Low Hp. Reactives are Mid-Hp but repair 1/2hp/s. => For future Gallente 3 Reactives and a Complex Repair.
What about the fitting costs of shields being outrageously high, especially for pg, which the two shield tanking classes are low in? Does that need to change in your opinion?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
248
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Posted - 2014.01.26 01:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:Shields should have a passive recharge, not like we currently have where it can be stopped by a bullet, but like EvE where you have to apply enough DPS to break the tank.
Shield users also need passive resist modules.
Agreed except for the passive resist, as that would make shields OP unless they were really low (like 10% at proto with damage mod like stacking penalties), and fitted in the low slot
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
254
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sergeant Sazu wrote:Whoah, are you guys seriously complaining about shields adding less than armor?
Shields can be extended less because your shields comes back fast once it starts to, and has resistance to more things than armor does. So obviously it would be fair to have less of it. Where as armor returns rather slowly.
It's just a matter of fairness.
On a personal note, I've stacked 2 Enhanced Shield Extenders on a lot of suits, and through experimenting learned that having a Complex + Basic takes up the same amount of space, but adds more shield. However this should stay as it is. It's an incentive to get Complex instead of stopping at level 3.
Also, I've always liked the idea of infantry getting Resistance Modifiers like vehicles did before the update, but it would be horribly abused unless there was a severe stacking penalty or inabilty to have more than one at once.
The goal of this thread was to discuss shield pg requirements, and whether they should be reduced. But, if shields have their hp bonus stay the same, i think caldari and minmitar suits need better regeneration bonuses
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
254
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Seigfried Warheit wrote:I dont have issues with shields only thing that irks me is that enhanced exts are crap...it should be 44 not 33..................22 44 66 logical...22 33 66 is not
I use Caldari Suits
Do you think that the pg requirement should be reduced because they are made for suits with high cpu and low pg? (caldari/minmitar)
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
254
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:
If they should be compared to anything it should be reactive plates, as they too have innate regen capabilities.
Or you could compare it to armor plates on any suit with equipment slots for a armor hive that will rep you faster than shields, and doesn't stop when you are hit by a bullet So what you really want is external support for shield tank? Cool, why didn't you say so in the first place?
No, though that would be nice
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
254
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:I didn't really hot any bumps fitting my extenders, but it sucks that unless you have complex, they're useless.
Do you run a scout/ commando suit?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
254
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Joel II X wrote:I didn't really hot any bumps fitting my extenders, but it sucks that unless you have complex, they're useless. Do you run a scout/ commando suit? Gallente Scout. Still useless and fitting them isn't much of a problem.
Try with a minmitar scout that has the worst fittings in the game, excluding commandos. Its a bit harder lol, especially when we rely on shields so much
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
255
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Here is the main problems with Shields vs. Armor.
1.) Cost CPU/PG per eHP
Okay, here is the conversion rate. Most suits run between 4-5x CPU per PG. Taking that into effect, lets make a universal cost number. CPU is the base unit, and PG is 4.5 Unit per PG point.
So here are the universal costs of shields and armor modules, with an eHP ratio attached to it (eHP / Universal cost = eHP per unit)
Basic extender: 24 eHP / 31.5 U = 0.76 HP per unit.
Basic Plate: 93 eHP / 19 = 4.9 HP per unit.
Adv Extender: 36 eHP / 63 U = 0.57 HP per Unit
Adv Plate: 121 eHP / 47 U = 2.57 HP per Unit
Complex Extender: 73 eHP / 103.5 U = 0.71 HP per Unit
Complex Plate: 148 eHP / 84 U = 1.76 HP per Unit
See the problem? This is the appeal of armor tanking. You get the most HP for your CPU/PG with armor tanking.
2.) Speed Penalties
Basic Plate: 2%
Adv Plate: 3%
Complex Plate: 5%
Let the record state this: A complex Plate's sprint speed penalty can be offset by a SINGLE BASIC KINCAT.
Try this, take a Min scout and put on a complex plate. Look at it's sprint speed, and then put on a basic Kincat. It jumps back up to 8.3, which is 0.01 m/s slower than where it was in the first place.
It is so easy to fix the speed penalties on armor suits, and made easier due to the fact that armor suits typically have higher PG than shield suits, which makes almost no sense, as you will see in part 3.
3.) PG and CPU costs compared to eachother.
Seems redundant, but it's not.
Shield Modules are supposed to be high CPU, low PG right?
Armor Modules are supposed to be low CPU, High PG right?
WRONG AND WRONG.
Look at the earlier stats. Basic Extenders cost 3x more PG than a basic plate, and 8 more CPU. Adv Plates and Adv Extenders are equal in PG while Complex only has a 1 PG difference.
The CK.0 and GK.0 Assault have the same base CPU/PG stats, but the Gallente will always have an easier time PG wise, due to their eHP modules costing far less on their fit (see part 1.). Shield modules are harder to fit, give you less eHP, and their supporting modules are so CPU heavy, you almost have to use a low slot to give yourself the CPU you need (90 CPU for a complex Energizer, but a Complex armor rep costs less CPU than an extender and the same PG.)
4.) Shield Regen isn't enough to save the shields.
I could go on about this for ages. Shield regen is the only saving grace for a shield tank, as it literally beats armor rep silly in time to regen. However, armor tanks almost always run around with either logi's or rep hives, negating this downfall, and shield regen simply isn't fast enough for a frontline suit.
Which is why everyone armor tanks Armor suits and Dual Tanks Shield suits. Simply because eHP armor modules are more effective in your lows than Regulators or Kincats (The two "biggest strengths" of shield tanks are regen time and mobility. Speed won't let you avoid fire, and the Regulators don't give enough of a bonus.)
Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. I do think that shields should have a much lower pg cost, but retain their very high cpu cost, while armor should have a high pg cost, and keep its low cpu cost
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
255
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:I'd rather see increased pg requirements for plates.
Currently it costs 30 cpu and 3 pg for almost 300 hp of armor (with bonuses of course)
Yet you only get 22 shield for about that much -_-
Or you could lower it for shields so that lone wolves which are generally scouts (who have terrible fittings) will be able to fit them with ease, because by just increasing plate fitting cost, you screw over all non assault or logistics suits with fitting them.
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
255
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Posted - 2014.01.26 04:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:yes, more sp too
? do you mean it should take more sp to max out shields?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
255
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Posted - 2014.01.26 04:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:yes, more sp too ? do you mean it should take more sp to max out shields? Sorry I meant HP, on EvE right now so distracted.
Its cool, do you think there should be a petition for lower fitting costs?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
255
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Posted - 2014.01.26 04:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:yes, more sp too ? do you mean it should take more sp to max out shields? Sorry I meant HP, on EvE right now so distracted. Its cool, do you think there should be a petition for lower fitting costs? I'd sign on it, something needs to be done with shields, may want to see if there are any changes in 1.8 first though.
Do you know if any of the devs posted something regarding shield rebalancing yet?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
255
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Posted - 2014.01.26 04:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:not to my knowledge, but knowing the DEVs it's possible, they're known for pulling info at the last moment after all.
true that. I also updated my OP with another reason why shields should receive this much needed buffGǪany other suggestions? (these could be from anyone)
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
258
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Posted - 2014.01.26 16:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
I made a thread about why minmitar scouts needed a buff to pg because currently my minmitar build is 2x kin cats 3x shields, a k5 shotgun, and a basic SMG with a stable active scanner. When 1.8 hits, i won't even be able to fit a basic cloak because of how little pg minmitar scouts got their fittings adjusted to
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
259
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Posted - 2014.01.26 16:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:I've been lobbying for a shield buff for a very long time. Us Minmatar Scouts need all the shields we can get 
This would help the cal suits as well, especially since there will be something better to stack in the highs than damage mods
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
259
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Posted - 2014.01.26 17:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bones McGavins wrote:Back when folks would ***** about armor tanking I would pretty much say its stupid to comain because nobody should see themselves as an armor tanker or a shield. Same holds true here. Maybe whiles are inferior, but who cares? It's not like you can't armor tank your suit, especially with ferrorscal.
That being said, it's strange that low slots get ferroracale which are equal to extenders but high slots don't hav anything near the standard plate. A bigger extender that increases profile could do a lot to balance. It would dissued scouts since it would hurt their ability to stay off radar. Could help the ttk problem too by increasing ehp
I was simply saying that shield extenders need lower pg requirements because classes that are shield oriented, i.e. cladari and minmitar, have very low pg but high cpu. What do you think about that?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
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Posted - 2014.01.26 17:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
updated the OP to account for heavy shield extenders
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
260
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:I am an armor tanker and I agree. Although your number are hard to take at a first glance and it wasn't until I looked at shield stats compared to armor stats in both EVE and Dust that I relented.
For those who care to look at the numbers:
EVE
Large Shield Extender: 2625 shields, 165 PG, 46 CPU
800mm Plate: 2400 armor, 230 PG, 28 CPU
Medium Shield Extender: 1050 Shields, 31 PG, 34 CPU
400mm Plate: 1200 armor, 35 PG, 23 CPU
Small Shield Extender: 263 shields, 3 PG, 23 CPU
200mm Plate: 300 armor, 6 PG, 11 CPU
Dust
STD: (85 armor, 1 PG, 10 CPU) vs (22 shields, 3 PG, 10 CPU)
ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (33 shields, 6 PG, 36 CPU)
PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (66 shields, 11 PG, 54 CPU)
My suggestion:
STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (45 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU)
ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (60 shields, 4 PG, 36 CPU)
PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (75 shields, 8 PG, 54 CPU)
found this on another thread and really liked it
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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263
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:I think one of the reasons that people think armor tanking is superior to shield tanking right now is because it can use lower tier equipment that is still very effective, thus allowing easier and cheaper fittings. With my suggestions it would provide a slight buff to complex extenders while reducing their PG and giving a significant buff to STD and ADV extenders which are generally considered worthless. With reduced PG costs and improved effectiveness STD and ADV shield extenders could become more prevalent thus allowing for stronger shield builds because you need to devote less resources to defenses and more to other aspects of combat.
Very, very true, and that is why i made this thread great insight
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Come on people, we need more posts! I want this thread to be 10 pgs long
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
285
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Posted - 2014.01.27 03:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
seriously? no one?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
298
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Posted - 2014.01.27 20:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
bumping for more consideration
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
301
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Posted - 2014.01.27 21:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Xyl5 wrote:Supporting this thread  I agree to the changes. And I hate the fact that I have to resort to armor to make a viable caldari suit because all my shields is 1 charge shot away from a scrambler rifle and 2 extra shots away to deplete my armor all in under 2 seconds.
Glad you agree, what do you think of the current fitting costs being more on shields than armor for less hp and less overall efficiency?
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
301
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Posted - 2014.01.27 21:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xyl5 wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Xyl5 wrote:Supporting this thread I agree to the changes. And I hate the fact that I have to resort to armor to make a viable caldari suit because all my shields is 1 charge shot away from a scrambler rifle and 2 extra shots away to deplete my armor all in under 2 seconds. Glad you agree, what do you think of the current fitting costs being more on shields than armor for less hp and less overall efficiency? Possible options: 1. Lower the fitting requirements for shield and increase its efficiency 2. Make a shield version of armor plates, with the same/almost the same efficiency and fitting requirement with the same/almost the same disadvantages. 3. Increase the fitting requirements for armor and/or lower its efficiency And something needs to be done with the weapon damage mods with armor tanking combinations.
I personally think #1 is the best option because with #2, its a lot harder and doesnt fit shield mentality, and with #3 it only screws over suits with low cpu/pg, like scouts and commandos. Also, the damage mod/armor tanking is fine in my opinion, as it fits armor tanking mentality, as they can deal and soak up a lot of damage, and stand and deal, so to speak. Shields however have much more mobility, and should allow for better speed tanking, mobility, and e-warfare
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
301
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Posted - 2014.01.27 22:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Xyl5 wrote:
Then numero uno is the best choice. Either way, something needs to be done.
Agree with you on that one
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
301
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Posted - 2014.01.27 22:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Shields need an overall Hp buff, currently there is no reason to use them if you're not Caldari.
I agree, and also they need a pg reduction, as their current pg cost of 11 is only 1 less than proto armor plates, and they cost 24 more cpu.
A good buff that was suggested is as follows:
STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU) vs (45 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU)
ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 20 CPU) vs (60 shields, 4 PG, 36 CPU)
PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU) vs (75 shields, 8 PG, 54 CPU)
Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives.
https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
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Posted - 2014.01.28 22:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
I will continue to bump this until more people post
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Help Shields
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
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Posted - 2014.03.03 23:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
bump
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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